Avert strike, start talking

[Pizaninlaw]

http://www.indeonline.com/homepage/x2045580677/Avert-strike-Start-talking


Wow

[Kamd50]

Start dialing people!

[tigersrbest]

Double WOW!

Thank you, Independent, for such a sensible editorial.

[Obie Wan]

Damn! Why didn't they publish the home numbers of the MEA hierarchy? I'm sure there are some folks who would like to give them an earful as well.

If I were McGrath, I might think that the talk of a strike is either a threat to be ignored or an opportunity to be taken. Neither the board nor the administration will lose anything in a strike (they still get paid), the district will save a lot of money (subs are cheaper than full-time teachers), and the teachers will be without paychecks. A strike doesn't make much sense for the MEA membership. In fact, it's damn near irrational. But then, so was signing on to a proposal that the membership rejected so soundly.

BTW, I seem to remember that someone on here suggested a one-year deal a couple of days ago and was soundly mocked. :tonguewave:

[Pizaninlaw]

Damn! Why didn't they publish the home numbers of the MEA hierarchy? I'm sure there are some folks who would like to give them an earful as well.


Because they are not elected officials.
You do have money riding on BOE or something?
It was mocked because you kept in the clause about 3 days off, did you not?

[Obie Wan]

Sure I did -- because I fail to see why teachers can't work in the same conditions as millions of others highly trained and responsible professionals. Can you tell me why they can't? It seems to work just fine in Perry. The language has been in their contract for 12 years. How many "unjust" suspensions have they seen?

You might also note that I also suggested that they be given a larger raise.

Anyway, let's get down to brass tacks. Which MCS administrators do you think would try to have a teacher suspended without cause? Because, you know, it sounds like that's what this boils down to: an accusation of inevitable unprofessional conduct by members of the administration. In for a penny, in for a pound: name the names.

BTW, here are some interesting stats about Massillon's teachers:
- They have below-average experience.
- They have a below-average percentage of teachers with a Masters degree.
- They make above-average salaries.

[Flying Tiger]

Obie Wan where do you get your stats from about Massillon school teachers?

[Obie Wan]

From the ODE.

[T. Menches]

BTW, here are some interesting stats about Massillon's teachers:
- They have below-average experience.
- They have a below-average percentage of teachers with a Masters degree.
- They make above-average salaries.

Here are some facts on the ODE website


The Cupp report/district profile on Massillon City Schools
Information is from 2006 which is the most current I could find.

Massillon city schools average salary $48,970
Similar districts $50,560
State wide average $51,345

Teaching experience:
-Massillon city schools 0-4 yrs 12% similar districts 20.68% state average 20.9%
-Massillon city schools 4-10 yrs 29% similar districts 20.56% state average 19.4%
-Massillon city schools 10+ yrs 59 % similar districts 58.76% state average 59.7%
Administration expenditure per pupil
-Massillon city schools $1,277.82
-Similar districts $1,005.83
-State wide average $1088.27
Instructional expenditure per pupil
-Massillon city schools $5,118.55
-Similar districts $5,126.00
-State wide average $5,206.00

Source the Ohio Department of education. Retrieved from
http://odevax.ode.state.oh.us/htbin/F2006-DISTRICT-PROFILE.COM?irn=044354+Massillon+City+SD+%28Stark% 29
August 23, 2008

My interpretation of the facts is that Massillon has more experienced teachers than similar districts comparable to Massillon and compared to the state average.

Since teacher pay is based on years of experience Massillon is definitely at the bottom of this category since it has more experienced teachers than the other two categories the state measures against. Since the other two categories have less experienced teachers but higher average wages you do the math.

Obie Wan can you give me the link from ODE so I can look at it?

[Obie Wan]

Sure: http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Downloads%5C2007%5C0607_bldg_teacher.xls

[T. Menches]

What rows in the spreadsheet contain info to Massillon City Schools??
This spreadsheet is based by building and not district.
There are over 3000 rows in this spreadsheet.
How did you do your comparison?

[Obie Wan]

Sorry, my bad. It's here (http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Downloads%5C2007%5C0607_dist_teacher.xls).

As for how I did the comparison: load into Excel, sort by column, then see if Massillon was above or below the midpoint. Very scientific. :wink:

FYI, the main page for the data is here (http://ilrc.ode.state.oh.us/Downloads.asp).

[CATS44]

TM cited sources that say the same things we have known for years.

Our teachers are underpaid in comparison to similar districts and we have more administrative costs than similar districts.

One teensy weensy fact that some on here conveniently forget to mention...

One of the most widely used strategies for lowering district costs is to offer early retirement to the most experienced teachers, the ones most likey to have Masters degrees...and replace them with young teachers just out of college, who usually do not yet have their masters.

You can insert 'who are often friends or realtives of BOE members and/or administrators' immediately behind 'young teachers.'...and you will have a pretty fair view of what is going on around the MCS.

But thats okay with ObieWan. He trusts the BOE to always do the right thing...the ethical thing. :doh2:

[T. Menches]

Obie Wan
Two points to look at in the spreadsheet you linked. One if you just sort the columns look for the mid point will give inaccurate results. Example in years of experience the single digit years come at the very end after 20,s instead of the beginning beacause it only sorts the first character. Second number of teachers looks to be based on actual number of teachers and not a percentage. Do not ask me how there are decimal points I do not know it may be some are percentages and some are actual numbers but thats how I read the column title and explain some numbers over 100. But thanks for the link my point to this is that the other data is more reliable.

[Obie Wan]

Cats,

You do the discussion a disservice when you stoop to such distortions. Remember, honest debate requires honest debaters.

At no point have I defended nepotism or cronyism, at no point have I defended the overall performance of this board, and at no point have I defended the staffing levels of the bloated administration. Even a cursory reading of my many posts on this subject would show this to be beyond question.

I would suggest that we would all be better served if we were to adhere to the same standards we demand in others.

[Obie Wan]

Obie Wan
Two points to look at in the spreadsheet you linked. One if you just sort the columns look for the mid point will give inaccurate results. Example in years of experience the single digit years come at the very end after 20,s instead of the beginning beacause it only sorts the first character. Second number of teachers looks to be based on actual number of teachers and not a percentage. Do not ask me how there are decimal points I do not know it may be some are percentages and some are actual numbers but thats how I read the column title and explain some numbers over 100. But thanks for the link my point to this is that the other data is more reliable.

I think it depends on how the data is sorted. For example, to sort by 'Average Years of Teacher Experience' (column E):
- Select Data->Sort...
- Click Expand the selection, then Sort...
- Select 'Average Years...' in the 'Sort by' dropdown, click Descending, then OK.
- When the Sort Warning dialog box pops up, select 'Sort anything that looks like a number, as a number'.
- Massillon is on line 342 of 611.

Hope this helps.

[Pizaninlaw]

I think it depends on how the data is sorted. For example, to sort by 'Average Years of Teacher Experience' (column E):
- Select Data->Sort...
- Click Expand the selection, then Sort...
- Select 'Average Years...' in the 'Sort by' dropdown, click Descending, then OK.
- When the Sort Warning dialog box pops up, select 'Sort anything that looks like a number, as a number'.
- Massillon is on line 342 of 611.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Obie Wan. You have all taught us how to use Excel.

[obiecam723]

I have been reading all these post about the BOE and MEA and some of you seem to have all the answers so I was just wandering how many of you are going to run for the school board? This would be a could time for you to get involved and make our district a better one!!:wow:

[tigguy]

I bet I see a name here running for school board. And he gets my vote!!

[jasco]

what a surprise. Top heavy in administrative costs and the lowest teacher salaries compared to other districts. Time to vote the BOE out of office.
Wake up Massillonians, you are not being told the truth about what is happening in your school system.

[jasco]

In yesterdays ABJ classified ad section they had an classified ad looking for substitute teachers in anticipation of a work stoppage. I wonder if this BOE paid for the ad?

[DE#53]

Sure I did -- because I fail to see why teachers can't work in the same conditions as millions of others highly trained and responsible professionals. Can you tell me why they can't? It seems to work just fine in Perry. The language has been in their contract for 12 years. How many "unjust" suspensions have they seen?

You might also note that I also suggested that they be given a larger raise.

Anyway, let's get down to brass tacks. Which MCS administrators do you think would try to have a teacher suspended without cause? Because, you know, it sounds like that's what this boils down to: an accusation of inevitable unprofessional conduct by members of the administration. In for a penny, in for a pound: name the names.

BTW, here are some interesting stats about Massillon's teachers:
- They have below-average experience.
- They have a below-average percentage of teachers with a Masters degree.
- They make above-average salaries.

Every american worker has a right to organize and join a union. And once your a union member you have certain rights. One of the most important is being able to have legal recourse and have your side of the story told and heard. Even murderers in this country have their day in court and the right to a fair trial! If a school teacher is accused of something shouldn't they have these same fair rights?
I have two young kids and another on the way that will all go to Massillon schools. I will be very concerned with the type of teachers that would be willing to work in our schools (new hires) if these rights are taken away from them. I would think that any new teachers looking for work or maybe experienced teacher who are relocating would choose another district to work for over Massillon. Wouldn't that leave us to pick from the "bottom of the barrel"?
Also I think that if the right to grieve if disciplined is taken away that there would always be an us against them attitude between Administration and the teachers. It would definitely drive a wedge between them and a feeling of lack of trust would be there. That isn't the right environment for what is needed to best educate our kids in this town. I am very concerned that administration and the BOE has already done so much damage with this stance against the teachers that the working relationship between them has eroded. I think the teacher might settle for the offered pay raise (which is a joke of an offer IMO) if the language in the contract was taken out about not being able to grieve if disciplined. I know many teachers in Massillon and they have the kids' best interest in mind. Would you get a worker to go the extra yard if the administration doesn't have their back?

[mtigers4real]

Neither the board nor the administration will lose anything in a strike (they still get paid), the district will save a lot of money (subs are cheaper than full-time teachers), and the teachers will be without paychecks.

If your thoughts here echo the thoughts of the board... then we have bigger problems than anyone ever thought.

Who cares about the education of our children so long as the admin gets paid and they save a buck on the backs of the teachers.... right?

:obiefanfire::doh:

[DE#53]

Sure I did -- because I fail to see why teachers can't work in the same conditions as millions of others highly trained and responsible professionals. Can you tell me why they can't? It seems to work just fine in Perry. The language has been in their contract for 12 years. How many "unjust" suspensions have they seen?

You might also note that I also suggested that they be given a larger raise.

Anyway, let's get down to brass tacks. Which MCS administrators do you think would try to have a teacher suspended without cause? Because, you know, it sounds like that's what this boils down to: an accusation of inevitable unprofessional conduct by members of the administration. In for a penny, in for a pound: name the names.

BTW, here are some interesting stats about Massillon's teachers:
- They have below-average experience.
- They have a below-average percentage of teachers with a Masters degree.
- They make above-average salaries.

Every american worker has a right to organize and join a union. And once your a union member you have certain rights. One of the most important is being able to have legal recourse and have your side of the story told and heard. Even murderers in this country have their day in court and the right to a fair trial! If a school teacher is accused of something shouldn't they have these same fair rights?
I have two young kids and another on the way that will all go to Massillon schools. I will be very concerned with the type of teachers that would be willing to work in our schools (new hires) if these rights are taken away from them. I would think that any new teachers looking for work or maybe experienced teacher who are relocating would choose another district to work for over Massillon. Wouldn't that leave us to pick from the "bottom of the barrel"?
Also I think that if the right to grieve if disciplined is taken away that there would always be an us against them attitude between Administration and the teachers. It would definitely drive a wedge between them and a feeling of lack of trust would be there. That isn't the right environment for what is needed to best educate our kids in this town. I am very concerned that administration and the BOE has already done so much damage with this stance against the teachers that the working relationship between them has eroded. I think the teacher might settle for the offered pay raise (which is a joke of an offer IMO) if the language in the contract was taken out about not being able to grieve if disciplined. I know many teachers in Massillon and they have the kids' best interest in mind. Would you get a worker to go the extra yard if the administration doesn't have your back?

[Obie Wan]

One of the fundamental problems is the "us vs. them" attitude that this fosters. The goal here is to have the entire school system working together to educate the kids. It might be better off if the line between "management" and the "workers" was not so starkly drawn.

To answer a previous question, I would think that there are plenty of highly qualified, effective, and enthusiastic teachers who would jump at the opportunity to work in an environment where their productivity and progress are not restricted by undue concern for their less competent co-workers. Intelligent people with an incentive to succeed can accomplish wonderful things. One-size-fits-all contracts based on seniority rather than merit do little more than remove that incentive and drive everyone towards the lowest common denominator. That's a far greater disservice to our kids than a 3-day suspension for a teacher could ever be.

There are also two fundamental misunderstandings that need to be corrected:
- This is not punishment without representation. The clause requires that the Superintendent meet with the accused teacher before any action is taken. That is, there is opportunity to offer a defense and rebuttal of the charges.
- Malicious administrators (e.g. vendetta-wielding principals) cannot unilaterally suspend teachers. Only one person can issue a suspension: the Superintendent. That would seem to be a built-in buffer against the alleged malicious tendencies of a vindictive underling, would it not? Unless, of course, one now wants to accuse the Super of the same thing.

Again, two questions that have never been answered:
- Why is it that millions of other educated professionals can work happily and productively without litigating or grieving every incident of workplace discipline?
- How many times has this clause been invoked in the 12 years that it has been in the Perry teachers' contract?

[DE#53]

One of the fundamental problems is the "us vs. them" attitude that this fosters. The goal here is to have the entire school system working together to educate the kids. It might be better off if the line between "management" and the "workers" was not so starkly drawn.

To answer a previous question, I would think that there are plenty of highly qualified, effective, and enthusiastic teachers who would jump at the opportunity to work in an environment where their productivity and progress are not restricted by undue concern for their less competent co-workers. Intelligent people with an incentive to succeed can accomplish wonderful things. One-size-fits-all contracts based on seniority rather than merit do little more than remove that incentive and drive everyone towards the lowest common denominator. That's a far greater disservice to our kids than a 3-day suspension for a teacher could ever be.

There are also two fundamental misunderstandings that need to be corrected:
- This is not punishment without representation. The clause requires that the Superintendent meet with the accused teacher before any action is taken. That is, there is opportunity to offer a defense and rebuttal of the charges.
- Malicious administrators (e.g. vendetta-wielding principals) cannot unilaterally suspend teachers. Only one person can issue a suspension: the Superintendent. That would seem to be a built-in buffer against the alleged malicious tendencies of a vindictive underling, would it not? Unless, of course, one now wants to accuse the Super of the same thing.

Again, two questions that have never been answered:
- Why is it that millions of other educated professionals can work happily and productively without litigating or grieving every incident of workplace discipline?
- How many times has this clause been invoked in the 12 years that it has been in the Perry teachers' contract?

This is all about trying to bust the union. Spin it however you want. We don't even know who the Super is going to be after this coming January. How can you put trust in someone to make fair judgement if you don't even know who that person will be? And with the disorganization of the current BOE I don't think there is much faith in the community that they will choose the right person for the job when the time comes.

Even the best of workers in whatever field they are in can make a mistake from time to time. Should we continue in this country to allow the "less competent workers" as you referred to, dictate what other 95% of us have to live with? That's not progress. That's punishing the whole for the actions of a few.

[DE#53]

Sure I did -- because I fail to see why teachers can't work in the same conditions as millions of others highly trained and responsible professionals. Can you tell me why they can't? It seems to work just fine in Perry. The language has been in their contract for 12 years. How many "unjust" suspensions have they seen?

You might also note that I also suggested that they be given a larger raise.

Anyway, let's get down to brass tacks. Which MCS administrators do you think would try to have a teacher suspended without cause? Because, you know, it sounds like that's what this boils down to: an accusation of inevitable unprofessional conduct by members of the administration. In for a penny, in for a pound: name the names.

BTW, here are some interesting stats about Massillon's teachers:
- They have below-average experience.
- They have a below-average percentage of teachers with a Masters degree.
- They make above-average salaries.

Quit comparing Massillon teachers to Perry. It's a totally different ball game. Perry has much less rif raff in it's schools to deal with. Many of my friends and family have gone to Perry schools so I can tell you with certainty that Perry doesn't deal with the same issues as Massillon. Most Perry students come from white 2 parent homes. That's not the case in Massillon.

Also, your assuming the right to grieve is a constant thing being used. I've been a Teamster for 12 years and in that time I know of no one I work with that has ever filed a grievance. I also have the right to bear arms but I've never used that right either. Most people never grieve anything. It should however be there for them if needed.

[Obie Wan]

No one is comparing Massillon's teachers to Perry's. Neither are the student demographics relevant to this discussion. The concern here is the effect of a contested clause in a contract -- a clause that has existed in the Perry contract for years. As such, it might be reasonably supposed that the effects of this clause would be similar in the two districts, and that Perry's long experience would be instructive as to it might work in Massillon. The MEA and their supporters assert that this clause will inevitably be abused, leading to numerous unfair suspensions and diminishing the quality of the teachers in Massillon.

Well, has this happened in Perry? And if not, why not -- and why is it so certain that it would in Massillon?

[CarlE]

No one is comparing Massillon's teachers to Perry's. Neither are the student demographics relevant to this discussion. The concern here is the effect of a contested clause in a contract -- a clause that has existed in the Perry contract for years. As such, it might be reasonably supposed that the effects of this clause would be similar in the two districts, and that Perry's long experience would be instructive as to it might work in Massillon. The MEA and their supporters assert that this clause will inevitably be abused, leading to numerous unfair suspensions and diminishing the quality of the teachers in Massillon.

Well, has this happened in Perry? And if not, why not -- and why is it so certain that it would in Massillon?

You're not comparing and then you do. And I think student demographics are VERY relevant to the discussion because of the mindset a teacher is in when dealing with problem students almost constantly. For that reason alone I think there is POTENTIAL for the effects to be different. Just a different perspective.

[Seeker]

You're not comparing and then you do. And I think student demographics are VERY relevant to the discussion because of the mindset a teacher is in when dealing with problem students almost constantly. For that reason alone I think there is POTENTIAL for the effects to be different. Just a different perspective.

Good point, although I would add or substitute "problem parents."

Having spent the last five years of my life attending every kind of event you can imagine where parents are there, I can assure you that many,many of MCS parents are ignorant, rude, ill-mannered jackasses.

(Anyone remember one of our leading citizens blowing an air horn at graduation this past Spring?)

[Obie Wan]

No, I am not (and never was) comparing Massillon's teachers to Perry's. I am simply saying (and this isn't that hard to understand) that it might be instructive to see how this clause works in the real world rather than simply making allegations of inevitable abuse and persecution.

Unless, of course, it's being asserted that student demographics are the driving force behind inappropriate and/or unprofessional behavior that might lead to teachers being disciplined.

[CarlE]

No, I am not (and never was) comparing Massillon's teachers to Perry's. I am simply saying (and this isn't that hard to understand) that it might be instructive to see how this clause works in the real world rather than simply making allegations of inevitable abuse and persecution.

Unless, of course, it's being asserted that student demographics are the driving force behind inappropriate and/or unprofessional behavior that might lead to teachers being disciplined.

My point is (and THIS isn't that hard to understand either) is that the "real world" of Massillon and Perry may be quite different on a daily basis. Student demographics behind inappropriate and/or unprofessional behavior? Maybe not. Depends on whose standards we are using. And based on this administration, I sure as hell wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Honestly, if we were dealing with different people I doubt this would really be an issue. And, to agree with you, it SHOULDN'T BE. But we're dealing with idiocy here. So much I'm actually behind a freaking union in this case. Mark this up to oh, well, the freaking FIRST TIME EVER.

[Obie Wan]

Just to be clear on this: it is now being asserted that because Massillon's student body has so many blacks and/or kids from single parent homes, then it is unavoidable that teachers will be suspended without cause.

Is that it?

As for this alleged administrative abuse: the example that has been given is of the vindictive principal. According to the MCS website, there are 8 principals in the district. Which of these eight are being accused of being abusive and vindictive?

[Seeker]

Just to be clear on this: it is now being asserted that because Massillon's student body has so many blacks and/or kids from single parent homes, then it is unavoidable that teachers will be suspended without cause.

Not on my part.
The ignorant parents that I have observed at school are mostly white and still married.

In fact, for the most part, the single and black parents are better behaved and more respectful.

[CarlE]

Just to be clear on this: it is now being asserted that because Massillon's student body has so many blacks and/or kids from single parent homes, then it is unavoidable that teachers will be suspended without cause.

Is that it?

As for this alleged administrative abuse: the example that has been given is of the vindictive principal. According to the MCS website, there are 8 principals in the district. Which of these eight are being accused of being abusive and vindictive?


Come on, I never said any of that. What I DID imply is that because of the difference of student make-up, teachers MAY have a different mentality dealing with them. What I DID imply is that the "management" of said teachers, i.e. the BOE can't be trusted to consistently manage verbiage of a contract objectively. Throw ALL that into the mix and I'm saying you COULD have a recipe for disaster. That's all. Not that ANY of this will happen, just that it could. I hope that clarifies it. My bottom line is I have complete and TOTAL disdain for the current BOE.

[Obie Wan]

I'm glad we got that cleared up, as it was (IMHO) a very distasteful implication.

As for the BOE: it's not up to them to manage the language of the contract. The contract specifically provides that the Superintendent will levy the suspensions.

Just out of curiosity: can an administrator be suspended without the opportunity to file a grievance?

[CarlE]

I'm glad we got that cleared up, as it was (IMHO) a very distasteful implication.

As for the BOE: it's not up to them to manage the language of the contract. The contract specifically provides that the Superintendent will levy the suspensions.

Just out of curiosity: can an administrator be suspended without the opportunity to file a grievance?

I'm glad we got that cleared up to. You wear me OUT, man. LOL.

Great question, by the way about administrators being suspended.

And for those of you that think I'm a know-it-all I will READILY admit right here and now that Wan is way,WAY smarter than me.

[sis2turftiger]

I don't think the administration is in any kind of union, so there wouldn't be a grievance process, would there?

[savage4president]

One of the fundamental problems is the "us vs. them" attitude that this fosters. The goal here is to have the entire school system working together to educate the kids. It might be better off if the line between "management" and the "workers" was not so starkly drawn.

To answer a previous question, I would think that there are plenty of highly qualified, effective, and enthusiastic teachers who would jump at the opportunity to work in an environment where their productivity and progress are not restricted by undue concern for their less competent co-workers. Intelligent people with an incentive to succeed can accomplish wonderful things. One-size-fits-all contracts based on seniority rather than merit do little more than remove that incentive and drive everyone towards the lowest common denominator. That's a far greater disservice to our kids than a 3-day suspension for a teacher could ever be.

There are also two fundamental misunderstandings that need to be corrected:
- This is not punishment without representation. The clause requires that the Superintendent meet with the accused teacher before any action is taken. That is, there is opportunity to offer a defense and rebuttal of the charges.
- Malicious administrators (e.g. vendetta-wielding principals) cannot unilaterally suspend teachers. Only one person can issue a suspension: the Superintendent. That would seem to be a built-in buffer against the alleged malicious tendencies of a vindictive underling, would it not? Unless, of course, one now wants to accuse the Super of the same thing.

Again, two questions that have never been answered:
- Why is it that millions of other educated professionals can work happily and productively without litigating or grieving every incident of workplace discipline?
- How many times has this clause been invoked in the 12 years that it has been in the Perry teachers' contract?

1. You are 100% correct, there is already an US vs THEM mentality...if an actual strike occurs it will become a whole hell of a lot worse. I taught at a school in the Cleveland Area that was on strike for a little over 9 weeks. It was a lose-lose situation the entire time, even after we agreed to go back to work. It was especially bad for myself and fellow football coaches...we crossed after the 1st day because we were not going to cheat our players that had worked their butts off in the summer. Everyone distrusted everyone, it was a terrible atmosphere for teachers and administration...but most importantly, it was a terrible atmosphere for the students.

2. I understand what you are saying about the super being a natural "buffer" for a disagreement between admin and teachers. In a utopia society you would be correct, but in the real world, the Superintendent is going to stand behind his principal 99.9% of the time, especially if the principal in question is a hire of the super. That is the nature of the beast, people will almost always back their horse.

3. Lastly, the grievance process is important in EDUCATION because of the fact that the teacher is working with students ranging from the ages of 4-19. As we all know, children, adolescents, and young adults, are not always the most truthful of all individuals. There has to be some sort of protection for the teacher when accused of something by a student. Sure the accusation could be correct, but it could also be an accusation because the student was upset about a grade, detention, or other type of punishment. I believe a situation like this took place in Coventry Middle school about 4 or 5 years ago. A 6th grade student accused her teacher of keeping her after class and then he would fondle her. The teacher was immediately suspended and an investigation went on for I believe a couple months. When it was all said and done, turned out she (along with 2 friends) made the whole thing up to get him fired because he was too strict or gave them a bad grade...I can't remember which it was.

[savage4president]

I'm glad we got that cleared up, as it was (IMHO) a very distasteful implication.

As for the BOE: it's not up to them to manage the language of the contract. The contract specifically provides that the Superintendent will levy the suspensions.

Just out of curiosity: can an administrator be suspended without the opportunity to file a grievance?

Yes they can be suspended, and I do not know of any grievance process for them. However, because it is the administration that sets the policies, they would have to do something awfully stupid to be suspended.

The Ohio Board of Education passed a referendum in March of 2008 that outlines professional code of conduct for all public schools in Ohio, and includes the punishments that will be levied in the event of a violation of the code. It's actually one of the strangest things I've ever read in my life. If I get a chance I will try to scan and upload for your reading pleasure.

[Pizaninlaw]

Yes they can be suspended, and I do not know of any grievance process for them. However, because it is the administration that sets the policies, they would have to do something awfully stupid to be suspended.

The Ohio Board of Education passed a referendum in March of 2008 that outlines professional code of conduct for all public schools in Ohio, and includes the punishments that will be levied in the event of a violation of the code. It's actually one of the strangest things I've ever read in my life. If I get a chance I will try to scan and upload for your reading pleasure.

As it is worded now, the principal can recommend suspension to the Superintendent for 3 days FOR ANY REASON. No limitations The Superintendent has the ability to write a note saying that the teacher has been a good boy/girl since the incident. I think it is 2 or 3 years after the suspension. They can't REMOVE the item from the file though. They can just add a good boy letter.

That'll get you hired at a new school :thumbsup:

[Obie Wan]

As it is worded now, the principal can suspend for 3 days FOR ANT REASON. No imitations
That is absolutely incorrect. This is the proposed language (http://www.indeonline.com/news/x1311850343/Morgan-takes-the-lead-in-contract-talks): “A member of the bargaining unit may be suspended without pay for up to three (3) days per event by the Superintendent for disciplinary reasons. Such suspension is not subject to the grievance procedure or legal/administrative challenge. The Superintendent shall first meet with the affected employee.” (emphasis added)

There is nothing in that clause that gives a principal the power to suspend a teacher.

[tigguy]

As for this alleged administrative abuse: the example that has been given is of the vindictive principal. According to the MCS website, there are 8 principals in the district. Which of these eight are being accused of being abusive and vindictive?

How many asst. Principals? Psychologists (AKA administrators), Career Tech Director, Curriculum, new grants person, 2 asst. superintendents, PR administrator, Athletic Director, Asst. Athletic Director (AKA Football coach), EMIS administrator, numerous Administrative assistants (non-union)to the treasurer(in fact the Treasurer tabled the addendum tonight at the Board meeting that was to hire ANOTHER assistant for her that would start at above $31,000. - yes, that is more than a new teacher would make for someone w/o a degree). So when the website says only 8 principals, that really isn't a clear picture of administration in MCS.

In the mean time, class sizes are above 30 at the high school, students at the high school are turned away from art because there are too many students for art classes and not enough teachers, counselors have close to 500 students each. There is NO testing coordinator for a district on 'continuous improvement' yet again. Yet when asked who is responsible for something as important to our kids as OGT, administrators point fingers.

[Pizaninlaw]

That is absolutely incorrect. This is the proposed language (http://www.indeonline.com/news/x1311850343/Morgan-takes-the-lead-in-contract-talks): “A member of the bargaining unit may be suspended without pay for up to three (3) days per event by the Superintendent for disciplinary reasons. Such suspension is not subject to the grievance procedure or legal/administrative challenge. The Superintendent shall first meet with the affected employee.” (emphasis added)

There is nothing in that clause that gives a principal the power to suspend a teacher.

My fault. The Principal gives the recommendation to the Super. I'll correct my post.

[Obie Wan]

How many asst. Principals? Psychologists (AKA administrators), Career Tech Director, Curriculum, new grants person, 2 asst. superintendents, PR administrator, Athletic Director, Asst. Athletic Director (AKA Football coach), EMIS administrator, numerous Administrative assistants (non-union)to the treasurer(in fact the Treasurer tabled the addendum tonight at the Board meeting that was to hire ANOTHER assistant for her that would start at above $31,000. - yes, that is more than a new teacher would make for someone w/o a degree). So when the website says only 8 principals, that really isn't a clear picture of administration in MCS.
I don't think anyone is making the contention that "8 principals" represents any kind of comprehensive overview of the staffing levels of the MCS administration. It was brought up only because it has repeatedly been suggested that vindictive principals would seek to have teachers suspended for personal rather than professional reasons. To that end, it might be educational to know exactly which principals are being so accused. There only 8 of them, after all; surely the accusers must have specific individuals in mind.

As for the number of administrators in MCS: there is no doubt it is too high. I dare say there would be little objection from most quarters if this number were to be lowered significantly. A quick look at the numbers shows that we have many more administrators than similar districts. By way of specific comparison, it might be instructive to look at the number of administrators employed by Perry - a district with approximately the same number of students.

[CarlE]

Can somebody enlighten us on the number of administrators in Perry as compared to Massillon. Oh, I'm REAL glad to hear the Treasurer FINALLY found a brain and decided not to hire yet another assistant.

[DE#53]

I'm glad we got that cleared up, as it was (IMHO) a very distasteful implication.

As for the BOE: it's not up to them to manage the language of the contract. The contract specifically provides that the Superintendent will levy the suspensions.

Just out of curiosity: can an administrator be suspended without the opportunity to file a grievance?

No one can be expected to give up something so important in a contract without even knowing who will be the one making the decision.

1. The BOE is out to lunch.
2. Who's going to be the Super?
3. What proof is there that the grievance policy is being abused? Is there records of this?
4. What mcgrath (sp) is doing is illegal. The members have not agreed to this proposal.

[CarlE]

Anybody read that McGrath now admits the MEA asked them in writing to come back to the bargaining table but he didn't know about it until a couple fo days ago? OK, Johnny boy I'm sure buying that.

[Obie Wan]

Perhaps not as implausible as it seems on its face. First, the notification was sent to Larry Morgan on July 17. McGrath didn't work for the district until August 1. Second, no one (to my knowledge) has ever asked Blosser (Super at the time) if he knew of the request. Third, what happened to the other two requests that were supposedly sent? Why didn't the MEA stand up right away with proof that they were sent? Fourth, there is no reason for McGrath to lie about this. Why would he make a statement that could be so easily disproven? As dysfunctional as this BOE has been, does anyone really doubt that McGrath might have been kept out of the loop and not fully informed of everything that happened before he took office?

There are several unanswered questions here. Frankly, the fact that they're even being asked doesn't make either side look good.

[CarlE]

Neither side does look good, granted. I just find it unimaginable that with all the heat about negotiations, with McGrath adamant about no requests that a MONTH would have gone by with this thing falling through the cracks. Possible? Sure. I just don't see it.

[Obie Wan]

Well, unless you're Bill Clinton, the easily disprovable lie isn't typically part of the rhetorical arsenal. It just doesn't make any sense that McGrath would make such a statement if he knew the MEA could start waving a delivery receipt around. And it still doesn't explain what happened to the other two requests that haven't been accounted for.

[CarlE]

Well, unless you're Bill Clinton, the easily disprovable lie isn't typically part of the rhetorical arsenal. It just doesn't make any sense that McGrath would make such a statement if he knew the MEA could start waving a delivery receipt around. And it still doesn't explain what happened to the other two requests that haven't been accounted for.

Very true. So, if he DIDN'T know then his organization just has a communication network that sucks. Not sure if that is any better!!! LOL.

[Obie Wan]

Would it really surprise anyone if Morgan got the request but didn't open it? Or if he didn't tell anyone? Or if he told the BOE but they never told McGrath?

Or if the requests weren't provable (e.g. verbal, sent via first class mail, or to the wrong address), so there was plausible deniability? :wink:

The more I think about it, the more I'd really like to know if Blosser knew. And what happened to other two requests.

[Pizaninlaw]

Marshall has a website where he talks about the publication of his phone number


http://marshallweinberg.com/wordpress/

You can tell it is his site because his picture is on it......A LOT!

http://www.marshallweinberg.com/

[Obie Wan]

The man has a point, ya know. The home number bit was over the line.

[DE#53]

Anybody read that McGrath now admits the MEA asked them in writing to come back to the bargaining table but he didn't know about it until a couple fo days ago? OK, Johnny boy I'm sure buying that.
And the teachers are supposed to have faith in this guy to be fair? lol

[DE#53]

Neither side does look good, granted. I just find it unimaginable that with all the heat about negotiations, with McGrath adamant about no requests that a MONTH would have gone by with this thing falling through the cracks. Possible? Sure. I just don't see it.
They're stalling until the election day and the levy results.

[tigguy]

Oh, I'm REAL glad to hear the Treasurer FINALLY found a brain and decided not to hire yet another assistant.[/QUOTE]

Well Well Well....the treasurers didn't get her brain from OZ afterall...another asst (part time as a matter a fact) was hired for over $31,000 (31,500 to be exact). I'm sure that will help raise our test scores.