the real explanation of the "can we compete debate"

[MR EMPTY PANTS]

there is only one person, bodies or town to blame for the "can we compete debate" that body is our one and only "MASSILLON"

FIRST OFF:back in glory years there was no perry, no tuslaw etc, etc.

2ND:massillon must own up to blaming themselves for the rut we are in. it started in the mid 50`s when our massillon school board said to perry "we don`t want your kids anymore, build your own school" they soon did the same thing to our neighbors to the west years later. "hey tuslaw, build your own school".

3RD:look at some of the dominate teams we had in the early years, look up the addresses of some the big names. where would they attend school at in todays 2006?

4TH:massillon`s success was surperb coaching and a talent mix of farm kids and city kids gelled together for a perfect fit

5TH:all the steel mills closed and there is absolutely no industry in massillon anymore to speak of and white collar jobs are even getting scarce. people are graduating and leaving massillon or ohio altogether for that matter.

6TH: yes we can compete about 2 out of every 10 years for the state title. every 5 years or so we have a legimate state title contender. all you people who think we are a contender every year are a few fries short of a happy meal.

7TH:yes, the catholic schools recruit and have a mass talent pool "so does ted ginn but the ohsaa looks the other way" ummm wonder why? but so what, we had that big talent pool but gave it away because of cost factors of absorbing kids "aka perry tuslaw etc" how`d you of liked to had that heinzer kid and all of perry and tuslaw during zwick`s years? think we`d of won a few titles. I AM SURE OF IT.

FINALLY: the stupidity of the administration in the 50`s has finally caught up with massillon and all you who think we should keep playing division 1 are living a pipe dream. we are not MIKE TYSON anymore, we are BUSTER DOUGLAS". sure we can sneak up and maybe win a title but suffer through endless disappointments.massillon`s best move is to move to div 2 and play teams with the same numbers of kids, then MASSILLON TALENT WOULD WIN OUT. staying in div 1 is like briner`s drugstore trying to compete with walgreen`s. it is a losing battle. move to division 2 and take the pressure off our massillon kids of trying to relive all you fans glory years wanting perfect seasons and state titles when the GLASS IS HALF FULL. moving to div 2 FILLS UP THE GLASS AGAIN. "GET IT"?

massillon has no one to blame but ourselves

[MassillonMom]

Living in Massillon for a short 15 years, I hadn't realized the Perry/Tuslaw history part of WHS.

This was really an earful, EMPTY, and very insightful.

You make an excellent point.


Thank you for writing this.

[chap]

Interesting Post. I heard the exact same story from my Father-in-Law many years ago. He also included Massillon Jackson and Fairless High Schools when he told me that. He also mentioned the boys that were raised on a farm having natural strength from working on their farms. It just surprised me to hear the same story many years later. Again,a very interesting post.

[actoral]

I've been saying essentially the same thing for years. I, myself and many, many former teammates at Wash. Hi. would have gone to Tuslaw. I agree if you combined Perry, Massillon AND Tuslaw my guess is you'd have a great program...........I don't agree about the coulter thing, however.

[Munson]

You can't count Fairless as it was originally 3 schools-Brewster, Navarre, and Beach City. BTW, Massillon had the opportunity to "get back" the Tuslaw system in the early 70's.

[austinsm11]

2ND:massillon must own up to blaming themselves for the rut we are in. it started in the mid 50`s when our massillon school board said to perry "we don`t want your kids anymore, build your own school" they soon did the same thing to our neighbors to the west years later. "hey tuslaw, build your own school".


Just wondered why this was done. Did this happen with Jackson as well?

Isn't it amazing that Fairless area used to be 3 high schools. Was there a fourth even? I was thinking there might have been (Justice maybe), but I can't remember. It's hard to believe all these schools that have closed. When did Lincoln and Lehman close?

[xtiger]

When did Lincoln and Lehman close?

When Massillon beat Mck three years in a row! LOL

[The Voice]

all right.. heres A REALLY WACKY THOUGHT..and this is no disrespect to the outlying schools.. create ONE Massillon team comprized of ALL Massillon districts.. I'll try to explain..when it comes to sports, give athletes THE OPTION to play for Massillon, or whoever they want.. These districts, and many of the students live within the Massillon City limits anyway..YES.. the education process and environment is 'different' at every district.. but this is
only dealing with sports.. a kid can still attend class at whatever school he wants, but since he and the outlying schools are STILL a part of Massillon, give the student the option to play sports for Massillon.. Pretty crazy.. I know

[CarlE]

all right.. heres A REALLY WACKY THOUGHT..and this is no disrespect to the outlying schools.. create ONE Massillon team comprized of ALL Massillon districts.. I'll try to explain..when it comes to sports, give athletes THE OPTION to play for Massillon, or whoever they want.. These districts, and many of the students live within the Massillon City limits anyway..YES.. the education process and environment is 'different' at every district.. but this is
only dealing with sports.. a kid can still attend class at whatever school he wants, but since he and the outlying schools are STILL a part of Massillon, give the student the option to play sports for Massillon.. Pretty crazy.. I know

Why is this a wacky idea? I for one think it's a dang good idea. The Tuslaw and Fairless kids could still go to school there and not have to get up too early to do their farm chores in the morning and then play athletics for us in the afternoon. I like this concept. Heck, I'll take anythng at this point.

[chap]

all right.. heres A REALLY WACKY THOUGHT..and this is no disrespect to the outlying schools.. create ONE Massillon team comprized of ALL Massillon districts.. I'll try to explain..when it comes to sports, give athletes THE OPTION to play for Massillon, or whoever they want.. These districts, and many of the students live within the Massillon City limits anyway..YES.. the education process and environment is 'different' at every district.. but this is
only dealing with sports.. a kid can still attend class at whatever school he wants, but since he and the outlying schools are STILL a part of Massillon, give the student the option to play sports for Massillon.. Pretty crazy.. I know
Great Idea!
WE could name it the Massillon Community Dioceses!

[The Voice]

Hey.. maybe we're fighting the wrong battle here.. think about it.. we're fighting with d1 and d2 issues.. many of the d1 schools have a depth chart of talent that goes beyond the realm of competition for a school our size.. we're always fighting accusations from OHSSA.. HEY ! WAIT ! STOP RIGHT HERE !
Now step back and look at the whole thing objectively .. Why CAN'T we realign
ourselves INTERNALLY.. why couldn't the Massillon football program become an option program for other districts with students living within Massillon
(for football only) This IS NOT recruiting.. this could be an OPTION program .. somewhat like RG Drage's program where kids who take trade classes travel to Drage.. talented players who want to play at their highest level could opt. for the Massillon program while still attending classes at their home schools..

Pretty nuts I know.. any input ?

tv

[FENTON 57]

I would think that if I were an administrator back in the 50s' I would have told Perry to build their own school.

Why? Because the old Massillon High wouldn't have the room for all the kids...

Remember that the old Massillon High didn't build the new wing untill the
1960s'.........

[steeltiger]

Listen... Why is it that every time we lose a game we have to start this debate all over again? We just lost to the largest school in the entire state... but if you watched the game you would have noticed that there was a bit of questionable officiating. Couple that with the fact that Mentor has a pretty good squad this year and they were coming off of a big loss looking to prove something, they would be tough to be beat Friday night by anyone in the state. Then we start to talk about how we "can't compete"? The game that I watched had our tigers with the football and only down 5 with 4 minutes to go. I'd say that they competed fine given the circumstances. (plus a few kids had less than stellar performances) Anyhow, stop it! We don't need Perry kids or Tuslaw kids to be able to compete in D1. And for all of you who say that dropping to D2 is best for the kids... why don't you ask them how they feel about that? If you lower the standard of this program by doing that then you will destroy what many have worked hard to create. A big rebound win against Iggy this week and you D2 proponents can crawl back into the woodwork and wait for another bump in the road to come out waving your little white flags.

[Grandma Turtle]

Mr Empty Pants - 1
Mr Empty Head - 0

[chap]

Mr Empty Pants - 1
Mr Empty Head - 0
:doh2: :doh2: LOL!

[tiger#22]

move to division 2 and take the pressure off our massillon kids of trying to relive all you fans glory years wanting perfect seasons and state titles when the GLASS IS HALF FULL. moving to div 2 FILLS UP THE GLASS AGAIN. "GET IT"?

massillon has no one to blame but ourselves

I have asked this before but obviously some dont get it, why would the pressure be off the Tigers if they play in the Div 2 playoffs? Can you imagine the first 2 or 3 years in the Div 2 playoffs how great the pressure would be on those kids to win the title. It would be expected that they win a title every year in Div 2 as you say it is now in Div 1 so what is the difference? This is Massillon the pressure and expectations will be there ALWAYS. I would much rather have a season like last year or the back to back semi-final years in 01' and 02' with a few 6-4 or 5-5 seasons mixed in then go to the playoffs and play teams like New Philly, Canfield, Alliance, Tallmadge, Barberton, among others. Massillon is all about playing the best and beating the best, not playing the best in the Regular Season and playing down in the playoffs.

[tigersrbest]

:help: I was in school back when the kids from Perry and Tuslaw were still at WHS and their high schools were being built. The Perry kids could choose to go to Massillon or Lincoln in Canton, and the Tuslaw students could choose Massillon or Canal Fulton. Remember, both Perry and Tuslaw had grade schools that went to the 8th grade. The students that chose Massillon were bused here in the 9th grade.

Both Perry and Tuslaw tried for several years to pass bond issues to build their own high schools. I don't remember that Massillon told either group they had to leave. I think leaving had a lot more to do with the fact that the districts were growing and their school boards were agitating for their own high schools. The same thing was happening at other places in the county (think Glenwood) and all over the state of Ohio. The state was actually pushing rural or small districts to consolidate and build their own high schools.

I think it's an error to blame Massillon for Perry or Tuslaw High School. Neither district wanted to consolidate with Massillon and be swallowed up by the larger district. Their local school boards wanted to retain their power and their districts - the only way to do this was to build their own high schools and they did.

[bthart22]

Many things have happened to Massillon over the years that have the community in the shape that it's in. In the Paul Brown glory years, Massillon had a thriving industrial base, and old PB promised more than a few fathers with big, athletic sons that he would use his influence down at "the mill" to secure employment and upgrade the Tiger roster in the process. The steel mills are gone, and school administrators and city politicians have made tons of decisions on school expansions and annexation that were the smart moves at the time, but analyzed in the vaccum of having a 3-2 football team becomes a great excuses of the town's inability to return to past glories. Many of us that grew up loving the Tigers and wanted to stay in town, but had to leave because there were few jobs. We went elsewhere and raised families with big, athletic sons that we would have loved to see wear the Orange and Black, but economically couldn't do it. It's nobody's fault, but it is the reality of the situation, and it needs to be factored into the decisions of DI versus DII, Federal League or no Federal League, and just where the Tiger program is headed.

[CATS44]

Tigersbest: You are correct.

It was not the Massillon BOEs decision, and never was.

Both Perry and what is now Tuslaw had school systems, but not enough population nor money to create a high school. Also back in the days there was not nearly as much importance attached to a high school diploma, esp in rural areas. A kid with an eighth grade education that could read, write, add, subtract, and divide had all he needed to be a functioning member of society.

All that began to change after WWII, esp with the government underlining its new emphasis on education with the GI Bill.

Within ten years, a HS diploma was considered the minimal educational requirement...and for that reason in, addition to the demographics of the surrounding areas, the two new high schools were built.

While it is possible that the citizens of the MCS could have incorporated the three townships into this district, it is highly improbable that they would have voted to pay for all the new construction to make that a reality.

Jackson, on the other hand, had its own high school (at least since 1935), and never had a significant impact on our student enrollment after that.

[obiefan]

My aunt graduated from Lincoln in 1976 and she was the last class.

When did Lincoln and Lehman close?

[Fats]

What we have is the Posters who love the FEd and want Massillon to be in it so bad, they are the ones who are so hype for us to go to Div. II. They hope that this will open the door for a FEd entry.
Look at our last few years Final fours, state championship game. Will we have some down years, we probably will. But, we still compete and we still our one of the top programs in the state. The FED lovers may not agree, but most football people around the state say that we are a top program. I really believe dropping to Div. II in the long run will lower our status in the state. WHY play the big boys in the regular season, according to the DIV. II gang, WE CAN NOT compete with DIV. I then why play them.They want us to be Div. II and join the FED. HEY if the FED is so GREAT of competition and we would not compete (I think we would be like Mckinley, dominating most years) WHY does the FED not SCHEDULE us in the regular season. ONE REASON They are AFRAID. They can use the excuse : Massillon will not do a home and home contract. I do not think that is true our ADMIN and Coaches will agree to a home and home.
The DIV I or DIV II debate is just a cover to get the fans to say the FED is for us.

[DAWGH8R]

Every team has down years. Just like '03 and '04. There will be others.

Heck , McKinley went 0 for Ohio for over a year, and then played for the 'ship!!

Talent seems to be cyclical. And , of course, you gotta catch some breaks !!:afro: