Can Muslims Be Good Americans?

[lobbs]

I retrieved the following from the internet (of course it does not mean it is true, so please do not take it the wrong way, im just puting it out there so it can be debated)

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia .



Religiously - no. . .

Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.



Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.



Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews .



Politically - no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.



Domestically - no. . .

Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34)

Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.



Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.



Spiritually - no. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.



Therefore, after much study and deliberation....

Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

Oh, here we go again! There was just another topic started a while back by DragonTigerNemesis on this.

Tell you what: Why don't you contact Dennis Miller and let him tell you what he thinks! See if you agree with him and why don't you risk getting nailed by four Massillon natives I know who would disagree with your stances (I only go toe-to-toe with one and not the other three...the other three, I'm asking to really get verbally flattened)!

[lobbs]

Oh, here we go again! There was just another topic started a while back by DragonTigerNemesis on this.

Tell you what: Why don't you contact Dennis Miller and let him tell you what he thinks!

well, Dennis Miller is a pretty popular person, so that might be kinda hard. Second, i dont really know anything about him, i only know of him from a few SNL skits. Whats his number?

[massillon catholic]

I suppose the bigger question may be, can a muslim make a good American President?

[Lakewood]

I suppose the bigger question may be, can a muslim make a good American President?

You need people need help!!!!!

[Indiana95]

You need people need help!!!!!

Some of these people are beyond help. Our country is moving forward, away from the fear and intolerance of others who look and think differently than "americans." Those choosing to "live in the past" will simply be left behind to bitch and moan with each other. Quite sad...but hey isn't the ability to choose the american way?

[lobbs]

Some of these people are beyond help. Our country is moving forward, away from the fear and intolerance of others who look and think differently than "americans." Those choosing to "live in the past" will simply be left behind to bitch and moan with each other. Quite sad...but hey isn't the ability to choose the american way?

the people who are dwelling on the past are the same people who want to destroy the United States. If a muslim president is ever voted into office, it will be his DUTY, ordered by the Quran, to destroy us! You all are just to ignorant and scared to say it because your afraid to be labeled a racist or a biggot. well damnit, if its gonna keep me and my family alive, then yes, i am a racist against having a muslim in the white house!:thanx::usflag:

[DAWGH8R]

Are we talking about living or dead MOOOSLUMS ????:rockin:

[bs.gunn]

I suppose the bigger question may be, can a muslim make a good American President?

I'm certain a muslim could make a good president. But then again I'm not a bigot.

[CarlE]

I'm certain a muslim could make a good president. But then again I'm not a bigot.

I'm certain they couldn't. Besides, they would be killed before they ever took office, thank God.

[Tiger77]

Thanking God for assassination of potential President. Wow- we've got some problems in this country. :down:

[Red50Go]

If it makes you feel better, I dont think a bible thumping christian makes a good President either.


"When I do good I feel good. When I do bad I feel bad. That is my religion." Abraham Lincoln

[inyourhonor2010]

the people who are dwelling on the past are the same people who want to destroy the United States. If a muslim president is ever voted into office, it will be his DUTY, ordered by the Quran, to destroy us! You all are just to ignorant and scared to say it because your afraid to be labeled a racist or a biggot. well damnit, if its gonna keep me and my family alive, then yes, i am a racist against having a muslim in the white house!:thanx::usflag:

Please tell me how it will be his duty as ordered by the Quran to destroy specifically the USA when America hadn't even been discovered when the
Quran was written?

[Seeker]

No.

[sis2turftiger]

This is why I don't discuss politics or religion. Both of them together - explosive combo!

[TigerBuckeye313]

The answer to the original question is NO.

[Seeker]

The answer to the original question is NO.

I said that three posts ago, but I'm glad you concur.

[inyourhonor2010]

Oh, and to reply to the original topic, yes.

[mike_da_man13]

Please tell me how it will be his duty as ordered by the Quran to destroy specifically the USA when America hadn't even been discovered when the
Quran was written?
ahhh young grass hopper reread the first post

[inyourhonor2010]

Good catch, ran a few too many lines together on that one.
Although now carefully re-reading that one, I must say, that too is rather inaccurate. Not all the religious leaders teach the destruction of America. Only a select few, but we always hear about those select few because "Iraqi Cleric Helps to Rebuild Schools" doesn't get very good ratings on CNN or Faux News.

One more problem with that Lobbs
Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Ever heard of a wee little country of about oh, 225 million people called Indonesia?

[lobbs]

Please tell me how it will be his duty as ordered by the Quran to destroy specifically the USA when America hadn't even been discovered when the
Quran was written?

i didnt say the USA specifically. But the constitution and america was founded on christian principles, and that is something they cannot have:angel:

[dataintsmiff]

I'm certain a muslim could make a good president. But then again I'm not a bigot.

You're way worse.

[Seeker]

i didnt say the USA specifically. But the constitution and america was founded on christian principles, and that is something they cannot have:angel:


Minor correction: Judeo-Christian principles.

It may seem to be a subtle difference, but its not.

[dataintsmiff]

Back to the original question....NO!

[bs.gunn]

LoL if you get your information from lobbs on the constitution or the formation of our government then you are taking CRAZY PILLS.

[dataintsmiff]

LoL if you get your information from lobbs on the constitution or the formation of our government then you are taking CRAZY PILLS.

The only one on any medication around here is you, and it seems like you've most likely overdosed on said CRAZY PILLS!

[massillon catholic]

Back to the original question. When pigs fly!

[mike_da_man13]

inyourhonor and other "non bigots" let us turn muhammeds teaching and i quote
IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

idk about you guys but that sounds to me like a fine accepting and loving religion about nothing more than wanting peace with all man kind

[Indiana95]

If we're gonna start quoting excerpts from the Koran and other religious scripture, let's be fair....I can also cherry pick numerous excerpts from the Bible that can be interpreted in the very same way....

Let's start with Exodus 23:24 "Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy". Need I go on?

[mike_da_man13]

If we're gonna start quoting excerpts from the Koran and other religious scripture, let's be fair....I can also cherry pick numerous excerpts from the Bible that can be interpreted in the very same way....

do it... from the new testiment find where it says that. It says that the lord will take vengence against non believers not man.

[Indiana95]

do it... from the new testiment find where it says that. It says that the lord will take vengence against non believers not man.

You're not going to win this one my friend. Radical Christians, just like radical Muslims will and do use their scriptures to justify hatred and intolerance. Most of this stuff are what is known as allegories, NOT fact. It's takes people with some level of intelligence and the ability to apply logic to sort through this stuff. You apparently are not one of them. Too many people, blinded by by faith, live their lives and form their beliefs through the literal interpretation of scripture (all religions). We can debate this forever, so I'll stop with some examples for you, as you asked....

They should be shunned. Neither marry nor be friends with them.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Cor.6:14-17

They should be killed.

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

[mike_da_man13]

You're not going to win this one my friend. Radical Christians, just like radical Muslims will and do use their scriptures to justify hatred and intolerance. Most of this stuff are what is known as allegories, NOT fact. It's takes people with some level of intelligence and the ability to apply logic to sort through this stuff. You apparently are not one of them. Too many people, blinded by by faith, live their lives and form their beliefs through the literal interpretation of scripture (all religions). We can debate this forever, so I'll stop with some examples for you, as you asked....

They should be shunned. Neither marry nor be friends with them.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Cor.6:14-17

They should be killed.

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10
actually i did win the arguement. read the challenge and you will see where you have failed
if you also read dt you will see that eating anything that splits the hoove is bad aswell are tatoos. the christian religion allows itself to adapt to modern times according to jesus christ the muslim religion does not allow that luxery

[mike_da_man13]

"You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, 'You shall not murder;' and 'Whoever shall murder shall be in danger of the judgment.' But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.
"If therefore you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are with him in the way; lest perhaps the prosecutor deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. Most certainly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there, until you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 5:21-26
goodness knows i love Pwning noobs with facts!

[Indiana95]

actually i did win the arguement. read the challenge and you will see where you have failed
if you also read dt you will see that eating anything that splits the hoove is bad aswell are tatoos. the christian religion allows itself to adapt to modern times according to jesus christ the muslim religion does not allow that luxery

OK then. I know where this is heading. Intelligent discourse does not seem possible, so I'll end with the following thought..

Christianity preaches love others as you love yourself, compassion and forgiveness. If they slap you on one cheek, just turn the other cheek so they may slap you too, and do not worry, your reward will be in heaven after you die. A very efficient doctrine for complete brainwashing and enslavement of human beings to be dominated and exploited, that have sadly gone on for about 2000 yrs now.

Yet many Christians are the most egoistic, unforgiving, inconsiderate, rude, foul-mouthed, discriminatory, and condemnatory as well as loveless and hateful human beings on earth. What an irony. :glare:

[mike_da_man13]

Yet many Christians are the most egoistic, unforgiving, inconsiderate, rude, foul-mouthed, discriminatory, and condemnatory as well as loveless and hateful human beings on earth. What an irony. :glare:

prove it

[Indiana95]

prove it

Let's start be reviewing the posts of some of the threads on MP.com and then we can take a journey through world history if you'd like. Prove it? Information is literally at our finger tips.....type and think a little....you'll be amazed at what can be learned not taught in the bible!

Oh, your NEW testament examples of hatred you wanted....Sorry I misread your post and NO you didn't win....Recognize these verses?

Matthew 27:24-25: "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." This passage, probably more than any other text in the Christian Scriptures fueled anti-Judaism, and later anti-semitism. Matthew records that a crowd of Jews said a most improbable statement: that they and their children were responsible for Jesus' death. This inspired the church father Origen (circa 185-254 CE) to write: "Therefore the blood of Jesus came not only upon those who lived formerly but also upon all subsequent generations of Jews..." The Christian church taught until recently that all Jews -- past, present and future -- are equally responsible for the death of Christ.

John 8:44: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." In this passage, Jesus is speaking to Jews who, like the majority of the residents of Palestine, rejected his teachings. He says that they are sons of Satan.

Corinthians 10:20-21 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." Here, Paul writes that the Gods and Goddesses of other religions are actually demons. In modern terms, they are Satanists. He taught that Christians are to isolate themselves from non-Christians.

Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" Paul is recommending that Christians have minimal contact with non-Christians. He compares Christians to light and non-Christians to darkness. This may promote hatred of non-Christians.

Thessalonians 2:14-15: "...ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." This passage has been used to promote anti-Judaism and anti-semitism up to the present time. In reality, Jesus' death sentence was ordered by Pilate, a Roman official, and was carried out by soldiers in the Roman Army. Only they had the authority to crucify slaves and non-slaves who were considered to be insurrectionists and terrorists by the occupying Roman authorities.

Revelation 2:9: "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Here, Jesus "claims the name of Jews for himself and his church," and is condemning other Jews as followers of Satan.

[mike_da_man13]

Let's start be reviewing the posts of some of the threads on MP.com and then we can take a journey through world history if you'd like. Prove it? Information is literally at our finger tips.....type and think a little....you'll be amazed at what can be learned not taught in the bible!

Oh, your NEW testament examples of hatred you wanted....Sorry I misread your post and NO you didn't win....Recognize these verses?

Matthew 27:24-25: "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." This passage, probably more than any other text in the Christian Scriptures fueled anti-Judaism, and later anti-semitism. Matthew records that a crowd of Jews said a most improbable statement: that they and their children were responsible for Jesus' death. This inspired the church father Origen (circa 185-254 CE) to write: "Therefore the blood of Jesus came not only upon those who lived formerly but also upon all subsequent generations of Jews..." The Christian church taught until recently that all Jews -- past, present and future -- are equally responsible for the death of Christ.
lol the jews released a murderer in exchange for the life of an innocent man what is not to get?{/B]
[B]John 8:44: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." In this passage, Jesus is speaking to Jews who, like the majority of the residents of Palestine, rejected his teachings. He says that they are sons of Satan.
Yeah and your point? the way into heaven is to accept jesus christ there are no other gods b4 him

Corinthians 10:20-21 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." Here, Paul writes that the Gods and Goddesses of other religions are actually demons. In modern terms, they are Satanists. He taught that Christians are to isolate themselves from non-Christians.
dont worship other gods before him cuz it is wrong... if you do you go to hell(without repenting of course)
Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" Paul is recommending that Christians have minimal contact with non-Christians. He compares Christians to light and non-Christians to darkness. This may promote hatred of non-Christians.
really i got a completely different meaning what it says to me is don't give into temptation because the peers around you are... if your friend jumps off a cliff would you?
Thessalonians 2:14-15: "...ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." This passage has been used to promote anti-Judaism and anti-semitism up to the present time. In reality, Jesus' death sentence was ordered by Pilate, a Roman official, and was carried out by soldiers in the Roman Army. Only they had the authority to crucify slaves and non-slaves who were considered to be insurrectionists and terrorists by the occupying Roman authorities.
;p lol it is saying that christians were persecuted by the jews and if you have a history book you would see that is the truth hence the fish symbol which christians used to draw to distinguish believer from non-believer.
Revelation 2:9: "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Here, Jesus "claims the name of Jews for himself and his church," and is condemning other Jews as followers of Satan.
he's saying that if you don't accept jesus your going to hell how can that be missunderstood?

lol see my thoughts above you will not win this! none of what you have posted helps prove your point. the fact that the quran promotes the killing of all people helps mine.
christain= let them live their life and then suffer after death
islam= kill them and send the infidels to hell.
wow those are kind of big differences. christainity gives a man a whole life time to convert through love where islam is spread through the sword... makes you think doesnt it?

[obie7661]

Uncle Sam wants US Muslims to serve

The Pentagon builds Islamic prayer rooms and hires imams to make military life more appealing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1227/p03s01-usmi.html

[Indiana95]

lol see my thoughts above you will not win this! none of what you have posted helps prove your point. the fact that the quran promotes the killing of all people helps mine.
christain= let them live their life and then suffer after death
islam= kill them and send the infidels to hell.
wow those are kind of big differences. christainity gives a man a whole life time to convert through love where islam is spread through the sword... makes you think doesnt it?

Sorry dude. Not drinking the koolaid your selling.

You should read the book written by Bishop John Shelby Spong entitled: "The Sins of Scripture: Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love." Spong's thesis is that the Bible - both the Old and New Testament as read literally - cannot be the "Word of God" because of the hate-speech and politically incorrect, anti-liberal passages.

Spong cites passages advocating open genocide (Joshua 10:12-15; 1 Samuel 15:3; Psalm 137:8-9) slavery (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13). The New Testament has its homophobia as well in the writings of St. Paul (Romans 1:21, 26-27). But beyond this, Spong notes, are "terrible texts" which promote anti-Semitism.

The hatred towards Jews in the NEW testament is profound. After all, is it not true the Nazi leaders spent Sundays in Christians churchs after a week of murdering Jews? C'mon!

As much as I'd like to continue this very thought provoking dialoge, I must get to bed. I have an 8:36 tee-time with my golf gods! :tonguewave:

[austinsm11]

Still not seeing evidence that the NT says nonbelievers should be killed.

[mike_da_man13]

it is hard to counter indiana's claims since they are soley based on opinion instead of fact...i brought direct irefutable proof of my claim his are hidden away in code or i see what i want to see.

most of the time they aren't even his opinions! of course the new testiment wasn't written by god! heck the authors many of the time are the name of the chapter hence "the gospel according to -----" durrrr.....

[CATS44]

To have a reasonable debate, the first thing you must have is a legitimate premise.

None of the original allegations are true, unless you believe that the 'Christian' teachings of folks like Jim Jones are true. The original premises are far from factual.

The second thing a reasonable debate requires is participants who have at the very least a cursory understanding of the subject at hand, in this case, Islam.

Lets take a quick look at some of the basic fallacies listed in the original post:

1) The three great monotheistic western religions worship the same God, whether He is called God, Allah, Jawah, Adanai, or Elohim. All three recognize Him as the God of Abraham.

2) Islam comes from the same base root as Salem or Jerusalem, the basic meaning of which is Peace.

3) As Jerusalem is considered the geographical center of Judaism and Christianity, Mecca is the center of Islam. Muhammed was taught by local Jews that the shrine in Mecca was originally constructed by Isaac, aided by Abraham. But Mecca was not originally considered by Muhammed as the center. The original followers of the Prophet prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until persecution by both Jews and Christians convinced him to separate from the followers of those two religions, and his followers turned to Mecca.

4) Muhhammed did not feel that his revelations were new, but restatements of the revelations of the Hebrew prophets. Many of the Sutras in the Quran begin with the word 'remember', a direction to follow long time religious instructions that could be found in the teachings of the "People of the Book', a specific reference to Jews and Christians, who had books from God. (Torah and Bible) The Arabs of that time did not have much of a written language, and the Quran was recited, not read.

5) Many Christians recognize no other religion as true, excepting the religion centered upon Jesus Christ. Muslims are hardly significantly different in their approach to their religion.

6) Christians claim allegiance to Jesus Christ, either thru the New Testament for Protestants, or thru the Pope and Church for Catholics. Such allegiance has not stopped Christians from being fine Presidents.

7) I have no idea where the idea came from that says that Muslims cannot have friends outside their religion, but at least one major spiritual advisor to the Prophet was Jewish. The same could be said of Christians and Jews due to the Scriptural injunctions to go out and become separate.

8) All three religions began in patriarchal times in which women were second class citizens with almost no personal rights. The scriptures of all three religions are replete with rules that allowed the mishandling of wives. On another note, Muslims abhorred slavery long before Christians did....esp in the good old USA.

9) There are many American Christians who do not accept the Constitution as legitimate if it does not adhere to the teachings of their particular denomination.

10) You will find that a study of what we call the Old Testament will show that in every instance that the Hebrew tribes held hegemony, they allowed no religious freedom. Every major Christian nation was either autocratic or dictatorial until 1776 in America....and America was set up by people who were at least nominally Christian, but it was not set up as a Christian nation.

But the basic problem Americans have with Islam is not the fault of the Muslims, it is ours. Americans have never taken the time to study Islam, its history, or the history of the Middle East as a whole. So as a result, the only Islamics we have any knowledge of are the ones on the noisy fringes, the ones who preach hate towards us, the ones who subvert a peace loving religion and twist it into one of hatred, fear, and violence. They are a small, but very active minority.

Peace.

[obie7661]

CATS44, you are one very intelligent dude. Thanks for you great post.

[austinsm11]

2) Islam comes from the same base root as Salem or Jerusalem, the basic meaning of which is Peace.


I don't really understand your point. So Islam means peace because it has the same base root as another word that means peace?

There are words in the English language with the same root that do not have even close to similiar meanings, some even have opposite meanings.

[CATS44]

You can trust me on this, or you can take the time to investigate it yourself. Its not difficult, with the thousands of references available on the internet.

Abraham, alone, and sometimes lonely, in his worship of Elohim...God of all gods...desires to meet at least one other human being who knows Elohim. His wish is granted, and he meets up with Melchizedek, the King of Salem (which means peace).

In the New Testament, Melchizedek is referred to as a 'type of Christ'. Later, the most famous and widely known prophecies of the coming of the Messiah (from Isaiah), refers to Him as the Prince of Peace...and Jesus three year ministry finalizes itself in Jerusalem (Salem).

Melchizedek was the King of Peace, preceding even Abraham in his recognition of the one true God. Jesus is the Prince of Peace. Islamics for the most part think of Islam as the religion of Peace.

While most Jews and Christians do not recognize Muhammed as a prophet of God, Islam recogizes the Hebrew prophets, including Melchizedek, Moses, and Jesus. Islam also recognizes Abraham as the father of Islam.

Americans will never get it right if they consider people like bin Laden, Khomeini, and Farrakhan to be in the mainstream of Islam...just as non Christians will not get it right if they consider people like Jim Jones, David Karesh, and those Christian leaders who sanctioned the wiping out of European Jewish communities on the way to the Crusades as mainstream Christians.

At the very base of nearly all the major religions, at the level that the mystics of all those religions exist, you will find that they all express very nearly the same things, beginning with the sense of peace.

[austinsm11]

You didn't really answer my question.

[austinsm11]

Remember, peace can have different meanings. It can be in reference to one's mind and feeling calm and having no mental stress. Islam means submission. So submitting to Allah and following him could lead one to a calmness and inner peace

The prophet of this so-called religion of peace didn't seem very peaceful (meaning absense of fighting or war).

I do not speak Arabic, but I have found several sources that say that there are several words that come from this same root word. They can mean peace, to be saved, tanning of leather, and stinging of the snake.
So following your reasoning Islam also means tanning of leather and stinging of the snake, correct?

Regardless of our lack of understanding of the Arabic language , I just don't think you can assume something based on a root word.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

In case no one knew...I have friends that are Christian! Three of them are devout Christians at that!!!! So don't anyone tell me that Muslims can't be good Americans or that they can't have friendly relationships with anyone of another religious upbringing!

[reofan82]

OK then. I know where this is heading. Intelligent discourse does not seem possible, so I'll end with the following thought..

Christianity preaches love others as you love yourself, compassion and forgiveness. If they slap you on one cheek, just turn the other cheek so they may slap you too, and do not worry, your reward will be in heaven after you die. A very efficient doctrine for complete brainwashing and enslavement of human beings to be dominated and exploited, that have sadly gone on for about 2000 yrs now.

Yet many Christians are the most egoistic, unforgiving, inconsiderate, rude, foul-mouthed, discriminatory, and condemnatory as well as loveless and hateful human beings on earth. What an irony. :glare:

I think you are hanging around the wrong Christians. Calling oneself a Christian doesn't make it so. It is acceptance of Christ and your faith and action that makes you a Christian. Also, Christian doesn't equal perfect. We all fall short and are sinners and need to continually ask for forgiveness.

[reofan82]

Sorry dude. Not drinking the koolaid your selling.

You should read the book written by Bishop John Shelby Spong entitled: "The Sins of Scripture: Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love." Spong's thesis is that the Bible - both the Old and New Testament as read literally - cannot be the "Word of God" because of the hate-speech and politically incorrect, anti-liberal passages.

Spong cites passages advocating open genocide (Joshua 10:12-15; 1 Samuel 15:3; Psalm 137:8-9) slavery (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13). The New Testament has its homophobia as well in the writings of St. Paul (Romans 1:21, 26-27). But beyond this, Spong notes, are "terrible texts" which promote anti-Semitism.

The hatred towards Jews in the NEW testament is profound. After all, is it not true the Nazi leaders spent Sundays in Christians churchs after a week of murdering Jews? C'mon!

As much as I'd like to continue this very thought provoking dialoge, I must get to bed. I have an 8:36 tee-time with my golf gods! :tonguewave:

Any religous doctrine or scripture can be twisted for the purposes of man. The Bible does not advocate the killing of Jews, in fact, Jesus was a jew. The theology was deliberately twisted in WW2 so the Nazi's could justify what they were doing. Your interpretation and choice of reading material are obvious signs of a far left political philosophy and your comments are most assuradely Anti-Christian in nature. What the author you mentioned has done has rendered the bible and it's teachings irrelevant. That author is a master at "rewriting" the bible to fit his own theological and political beliefs. The liberals love that kind of thing.

[CATS44]

I dont think assumption of anything is the correct way of doing things, until you take the whole question within the general concepts surrounding it.

Obviously, Islam as a religion doesnt mean 'tanning'...lol.

But the general concepts of the religion of Islam are peaceful in meaning....and most Islamic scholars treat it that way.

If you study the life and times of the Prophet Muhammed, you will find that his military skills were necessary in order for him and his small group of followers to survive. The idea of one true God was anathema to the people of his region, who followed a triumverate of gods. There was also an economic incentive for Muhammeds opponents to eliminate Islam. Each of three main cities in the area contained a shrine to one of the three Arabic gods, and their individual economies depended upon the annual tourism from pilgrims. As Islam claimed more and more converts, the number of pilgrims declined.

But claiming that Muhammeds military skills somehow eliminate the value of his religion and prophecies would also eliminate our own religious values, based on the Judeo-Christian creeds. Elijah, probably the greatest of the Hebrew prophets, killed 400 prophets of Baal in one instance....but still managed to participate with Jesus and Moses in a vision shortly before the Crucifiction. Not to mention the military exploits of many of the Hebrew leaders....Saul, David, Joshua, Jotham, just to name a few.

And Chritianity has been a religion of the sword time after time over the last two millenia, in spite of the teachings of Jesus. Many of those instances have been Chritian vs Christian in disputes about doctrine.

As a fun aside, which your 'tanning' example brought to mind....

All Christians know the quote about a camel going thru the eye of the needle. Well, in Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke (a baser form of Hebrew) the word for camel is the same for rope.

It is very likely that Jesus used 'rope', which makes far more sense, than 'camel'. But camel has stuck thru many levels of translation.

To the topic at hand again....

The people of this world will never have peace as long as they find excuses not to get along....as long as they focus solely on the negative actions of the fringe followers of other religions, while not acknowledging the same in their own. They will never have peace as long as they look for the differences in cultures, and lift scriptural passages of other religions out of their original contexts. They also will never have peace as long as they subvert their own scriptures to fit their own selfish desires.

The face of Christianity to many Hindus is Mother Theresa. We, as western Christians, need to look for Muslim versions of Mother Theresa to be the face of Islam, instead of bin Laden. They are there, we just dont want to see them. We need to be more like Martin Luther King. Dr King was a devout Christian, but he patterned his campaign after Ghandi, who he saw as the face of Hinduism. And he nominated Thich Nhat Hahn, a Viet Nam Buddhist priest, for the Nobel Peace Prize, because in Nhat Hahn, he saw the face of Buddhism. Dr King did not allow religious differences to get in the way of Truth and Love in action.

So not only do we, as Christians, need to be the face of Christians for others to see, we need to look for the true face of other religions in the actions of those who act in peace.

[inyourhonor2010]

I leave MP idle for 2 days and it gets real cut throat eh? From now on I'm gonna have to check the forum more often b/c I missed out on the best stuff.:down:

[massillon catholic]

To have a reasonable debate, the first thing you must have is a legitimate premise.

None of the original allegations are true, unless you believe that the 'Christian' teachings of folks like Jim Jones are true. The original premises are far from factual.

The second thing a reasonable debate requires is participants who have at the very least a cursory understanding of the subject at hand, in this case, Islam.

Lets take a quick look at some of the basic fallacies listed in the original post:

1) The three great monotheistic western religions worship the same God, whether He is called God, Allah, Jawah, Adanai, or Elohim. All three recognize Him as the God of Abraham.

2) Islam comes from the same base root as Salem or Jerusalem, the basic meaning of which is Peace.

3) As Jerusalem is considered the geographical center of Judaism and Christianity, Mecca is the center of Islam. Muhammed was taught by local Jews that the shrine in Mecca was originally constructed by Isaac, aided by Abraham. But Mecca was not originally considered by Muhammed as the center. The original followers of the Prophet prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until persecution by both Jews and Christians convinced him to separate from the followers of those two religions, and his followers turned to Mecca.

4) Muhhammed did not feel that his revelations were new, but restatements of the revelations of the Hebrew prophets. Many of the Sutras in the Quran begin with the word 'remember', a direction to follow long time religious instructions that could be found in the teachings of the "People of the Book', a specific reference to Jews and Christians, who had books from God. (Torah and Bible) The Arabs of that time did not have much of a written language, and the Quran was recited, not read.

5) Many Christians recognize no other religion as true, excepting the religion centered upon Jesus Christ. Muslims are hardly significantly different in their approach to their religion.

6) Christians claim allegiance to Jesus Christ, either thru the New Testament for Protestants, or thru the Pope and Church for Catholics. Such allegiance has not stopped Christians from being fine Presidents.

7) I have no idea where the idea came from that says that Muslims cannot have friends outside their religion, but at least one major spiritual advisor to the Prophet was Jewish. The same could be said of Christians and Jews due to the Scriptural injunctions to go out and become separate.

8) All three religions began in patriarchal times in which women were second class citizens with almost no personal rights. The scriptures of all three religions are replete with rules that allowed the mishandling of wives. On another note, Muslims abhorred slavery long before Christians did....esp in the good old USA.

9) There are many American Christians who do not accept the Constitution as legitimate if it does not adhere to the teachings of their particular denomination.

10) You will find that a study of what we call the Old Testament will show that in every instance that the Hebrew tribes held hegemony, they allowed no religious freedom. Every major Christian nation was either autocratic or dictatorial until 1776 in America....and America was set up by people who were at least nominally Christian, but it was not set up as a Christian nation.

But the basic problem Americans have with Islam is not the fault of the Muslims, it is ours. Americans have never taken the time to study Islam, its history, or the history of the Middle East as a whole. So as a result, the only Islamics we have any knowledge of are the ones on the noisy fringes, the ones who preach hate towards us, the ones who subvert a peace loving religion and twist it into one of hatred, fear, and violence. They are a small, but very active minority.

Peace.

Go to saudi arabia wearing jeans, a tee-shirt with God-bless America on the front, a ball cap with an American flag on it, eating a pork sandwich and see what happens.

[Indiana95]

You didn't really answer my question.

Yes he did. He just didn't give you the answer you would prefer. That's the problem I have with people of any faith....to make them happy, you have to have the exact line of thinking as they do...anything that challenges or provides sometime new to consider immediately pisses them off. How Christian is that?

[Indiana95]

I think you are hanging around the wrong Christians. Calling oneself a Christian doesn't make it so. It is acceptance of Christ and your faith and action that makes you a Christian. Also, Christian doesn't equal perfect. We all fall short and are sinners and need to continually ask for forgiveness.

I agree. BUT who's the judge other than God? I had a pastor tell me that it doesn't matter what sins I had committed in the past, as long as I accept Christ, I would be saved and that God has planned out everything in our lives....nothing is accidental.

For those who thing it's this simple, I ask you this. Do you believe this to be true? Can all the bad things one has done go away by accepting Christ into their lives?

[CATS44]

Given that America has backed up one of the most repressive regimes in the world (The Saudi ruling family), I would expect that an American trying to find trouble over there would find it in spades.

Just as I expect a Muslim wearing an "I love bin Laden' t-shirt in NYC would get a severe come uppance.

So whats your point, MC?

[Indiana95]

I dont think assumption of anything is the correct way of doing things, until you take the whole question within the general concepts surrounding it.

Obviously, Islam as a religion doesnt mean 'tanning'...lol.

But the general concepts of the religion of Islam are peaceful in meaning....and most Islamic scholars treat it that way.

If you study the life and times of the Prophet Muhammed, you will find that his military skills were necessary in order for him and his small group of followers to survive. The idea of one true God was anathema to the people of his region, who followed a triumverate of gods. There was also an economic incentive for Muhammeds opponents to eliminate Islam. Each of three main cities in the area contained a shrine to one of the three Arabic gods, and their individual economies depended upon the annual tourism from pilgrims. As Islam claimed more and more converts, the number of pilgrims declined.

But claiming that Muhammeds military skills somehow eliminate the value of his religion and prophecies would also eliminate our own religious values, based on the Judeo-Christian creeds. Elijah, probably the greatest of the Hebrew prophets, killed 400 prophets of Baal in one instance....but still managed to participate with Jesus and Moses in a vision shortly before the Crucifiction. Not to mention the military exploits of many of the Hebrew leaders....Saul, David, Joshua, Jotham, just to name a few.

And Chritianity has been a religion of the sword time after time over the last two millenia, in spite of the teachings of Jesus. Many of those instances have been Chritian vs Christian in disputes about doctrine.

As a fun aside, which your 'tanning' example brought to mind....

All Christians know the quote about a camel going thru the eye of the needle. Well, in Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke (a baser form of Hebrew) the word for camel is the same for rope.

It is very likely that Jesus used 'rope', which makes far more sense, than 'camel'. But camel has stuck thru many levels of translation.

To the topic at hand again....

The people of this world will never have peace as long as they find excuses not to get along....as long as they focus solely on the negative actions of the fringe followers of other religions, while not acknowledging the same in their own. They will never have peace as long as they look for the differences in cultures, and lift scriptural passages of other religions out of their original contexts. They also will never have peace as long as they subvert their own scriptures to fit their own selfish desires.

The face of Christianity to many Hindus is Mother Theresa. We, as western Christians, need to look for Muslim versions of Mother Theresa to be the face of Islam, instead of bin Laden. They are there, we just dont want to see them. We need to be more like Martin Luther King. Dr King was a devout Christian, but he patterned his campaign after Ghandi, who he saw as the face of Hinduism. And he nominated Thich Nhat Hahn, a Viet Nam Buddhist priest, for the Nobel Peace Prize, because in Nhat Hahn, he saw the face of Buddhism. Dr King did not allow religious differences to get in the way of Truth and Love in action.

So not only do we, as Christians, need to be the face of Christians for others to see, we need to look for the true face of other religions in the actions of those who act in peace.

Very well put. You have articulated how I feel about this very important issue in an objective, yet profound way. God's desire for peace on earth cannot happen until the "I'm right and they're wrong" attitude from the general public stops. Thank you.

[austinsm11]

Yes he did. He just didn't give you the answer you would prefer.

Actually, he didn't the first time. Sorry bud.

[austinsm11]

I dont think assumption of anything is the correct way of doing things, until you take the whole question within the general concepts surrounding it.


Sorry, but I'm still not buying the peace argument. Islam means submission. One is to submit to Allah. Knowing what the word Muslim means only strengthens this argument. I could probably look and find places where Muslims were "stinging like a snake." The fact that another word that comes from the same root is only coincidence. Here is an english example. Synonym and antonym. They have the same root word (nym) but are complete opposites.

[bs.gunn]

Am I the only one who reads his name as autism11

[austinsm11]

As for Elijah, he killed a man and his prophets who " did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than did all the kings of Israel before him." (1 Kings 16:33). Ahab had a temple and altar built to Baal. He married Jezebel, a Baal princess who's father's name means "with Baal." Jezebel was killing God's prophets. Elijah issues a challenge between God and Baal. Elijah then has the prophets of Baal killed. Jezebel then threatened to have Elijah killed.

So, yes, Elijah did kill people who were killing the prophets of God. You talk about Muhammad's military skills being necessary to survive. He had people killed who were attacking him or people of the Islam faith. Understandable. Perhaps you can explain why he also had people killed who merely wrote songs or poems that insulted him? These people were merely saying that didn't agree with him.

[austinsm11]

Am I the only one who reads his name as autism11

Wow, your intellectually, stimulating contributions to the thread are noted.


At least Cats and I are capable of sticking to some interesting and thought-provoking dialogue without insulting or calling names.

I will be the first to admit that I don't know all there is to know about Islam. I question things to learn more and have a better understanding.

[reofan82]

I agree. BUT who's the judge other than God? I had a pastor tell me that it doesn't matter what sins I had committed in the past, as long as I accept Christ, I would be saved and that God has planned out everything in our lives....nothing is accidental.

For those who thing it's this simple, I ask you this. Do you believe this to be true? Can all the bad things one has done go away by accepting Christ into their lives?

I believe that God forgives us when we ask him for forgiveness and that we are made new in Christ. I do not believe there are accidents in our lives, but I do believe we have "free will" to make choices. No matter what though, God forgives and restores.

[CarlE]

Am I the only one who reads his name as autism11

Actually, Mensa-boy you are. God, what a piece or work you are.

[bs.gunn]

Wow, your intellectually, stimulating contributions to the thread are noted.


At least Cats and I are capable of sticking to some interesting and thought-provoking dialogue without insulting or calling names.

I will be the first to admit that I don't know all there is to know about Islam. I question things to learn more and have a better understanding.

You're not in the league of Cats posts in this thread. Calling your posts thought-provoking or interesting is laughable, which is why I asked in the first place. I didn't name call you a name, I just asked a question. Much like you :-)

Carle, who told you I was in mensa!

[austinsm11]

You're not in the league of Cats posts in this thread. Calling your posts thought-provoking or interesting is laughable, which is why I asked in the first place. I didn't name call you a name, I just asked a question. Much like you :-)


Never claimed to be in the same league as Cats. I have asked questions and learned some things both on my own and based on things Cats has suggested. If you care to answer my questions, go ahead. (I guess you aren't in the same league as Cats either since you haven't).

Now when you can at least contribute something, come back. Have a nice day.

[CarlE]

You're not in the league of Cats posts in this thread. Calling your posts thought-provoking or interesting is laughable, which is why I asked in the first place. I didn't name call you a name, I just asked a question. Much like you :-)

Carle, who told you I was in mensa!

You're not. But if you were you would be smart enough to fix the Legends, right?

[massillon catholic]

Given that America has backed up one of the most repressive regimes in the world (The Saudi ruling family), I would expect that an American trying to find trouble over there would find it in spades.

Just as I expect a Muslim wearing an "I love bin Laden' t-shirt in NYC would get a severe come uppance.

So whats your point, MC?

You made my point. Thanks

[CarlE]

You made my point. Thanks

BEAUTIFUL, bro.

[CATS44]

austinsm11: You are doing a very good job of taking an interpretation of Islam from a Christian website that is making an attempt to subtley denigrate Islam.

Tis far better, and much more accurate, to look elsewhere for a true explanation.

I would suggest that if you are truly interested, you read two books by Karen Armstrong, a former Roman Catholic nun who has become one of Americas leading authorities on comparative theology.

"The History of God"

"Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet"

Making war is easy. Making peace is a lot harder, which is why Jesus commends peace makers as the children of God.

But to do either well, you have to have a full, and true, understanding of the other side.

In football parlance, which we all understand a lot better than comparative theology :laugh: , you need to have an accurate scouting report.

[Kick]

Am I the only one who reads his name as autism11

Just like I read your name as bullsh!t GUNn.

[Seeker]

Just like I read your name as bullsh!t GUNn.

Am I the only one who thinks that's how he meant it to be read?

BTW, you could take it two ways:
1. A gun that shoots BS.
2. A gun that shoots at the BS.

:pimp:

[austinsm11]

austinsm11: You are doing a very good job of taking an interpretation of Islam from a Christian website that is making an attempt to subtley denigrate Islam.

Tis far better, and much more accurate, to look elsewhere for a true explanation.

I would suggest that if you are truly interested, you read two books by Karen Armstrong, a former Roman Catholic nun who has become one of Americas leading authorities on comparative theology.

"The History of God"

"Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet"

Making war is easy. Making peace is a lot harder, which is why Jesus commends peace makers as the children of God.

But to do either well, you have to have a full, and true, understanding of the other side.

In football parlance, which we all understand a lot better than comparative theology :laugh: , you need to have an accurate scouting report.

I will have to take a look at them.

Just from my readings,however, I think that Muslims must submit to Allah to find an inner peace. I don't think it is the peace you are thinking about. Salem also means to be complete or whole. Thus submitting to Allah would make one complete or whole.


Now, what does Allah ask his followers to do? That is where I am still reading. It is hard because many things in the Qu'ran seem to contradict each other. Sometimes it seems to be saying to fight nonbelievers who attack you (self-defense) and other times to basically just fight nonbelievers until they ackowledge Islam as the Truth. So perhaps killing nonbelievers would give the believer an inner peace and make the feel complete.

[CATS44]

The problem that you run into if you go looking for reasons to hate what Islam stands for, based upon various interpretations, is that the same thing can be done to Judaism and Chritianity.

The teachings of Christianity have been used to promote Apartheid, slavery, segregation, ethnic cleansing, the killing of women and children, total annihilation, torture, anti Semitism...the list goes on and on.

The same can be said of Islam.

So what is a person who is pursuing peace to do? Focus upon the bad behavior of minorities in other religions while denying such actions by minorities of your own? Hardly, IMO.

I think you will find this link more accurate in its assessment of Islam than perhaps others you have perused. If you read it carefully, you will find that much of it is in complete agreement with the teachings of Jesus and paul, esp the Sermon on the Mount.

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/2001/1102.html

From what I have studied about Islam, among other religions...and I am far from an expert....this comes as close as anything to the teachings of Muhammad.

Personally, I find nothing in this explanation that I am really uncomfortable with. The description is certainly not the religion of bin Laden....and looks to be a total refutation of his actions.

[austinsm11]

The problem that you run into if you go looking for reasons to hate what Islam stands for, based upon various interpretations, is that the same thing can be done to Judaism and Chritianity.


Very true, but you must realize that most people come into these arguments with a bias.

So what is a person who is pursuing peace to do? Focus upon the bad behavior of minorities in other religions while denying such actions by minorities of your own? Hardly, IMO.

I'm not denying the actions of Christians.

The Qu'ran teaches to attack nonbelievers only when threatned. The problem that I have read is that people have different tolerance levels for feeling threatened. Not submitting to Islam is a threat to Muslims.


I did read your link.
Peace in the political system works through a representative government. All people should be equal under the law. People should have freedom to choose their own leaders and hold them accountable. The government must work with the consultation and consent of the governed. Islamic government is basically the government by the people and for the people under the broad moral principles and laws given by God.

So why are some many of the Muslim-majority countries not democratic?


There is nothing un-Islamic in resisting evil non-violently. Actually one has to try and use all means to eliminate evil through peaceful means without the use of force as much as possible. In Islamic history from the time of the Prophet until now, Muslims most of the time resisted oppression and struggled for liberation in non-violent and peaceful manners. It was their enemies who imposed wars upon them. When it was not possible for them to work without taking arms then and then only they took arms.

Again, if this is true then why did Muhammad have people who merely wrote songs about him or Islam killed. These people were not violent towards him. If their negativity towards him was considered evil, why did Muhammad not attempt ways first instead of just having them killed?

Muhammad would have had a valid reason to attack those in Mecca who were against him and plotting to kill him while he originally lived there. Instead he went to Medina where he was embraced. He mediated disputes which kept the peace between tribes. He then started to raid caravans from Mecca and eventually attacked came back to attack Mecca. Mecca did not impose war on him. Did Muhammad use all means possible to avoid force with them?

[massillon catholic]

Didnt muslims kill a reporter or writer in Europe just because he printed a real funny picture of moohomad?:drinkem:

[CATS44]

You had better read the bio of Muhammad that I suggested. And read the link a little farther down to where agressive (non defensive) warfare, even if attacked, is condemned....and then farther down to its stance against terrorism and the targeting of civilians.

And yes, Muslims have been violent to those who do not agree with them or profess a different faith.

But then again, those Pilgrims we learned about in grade school started the Massachusetts Bay Colony, and, among other things, burnt people at the stake, hung women that had a difference in denominational dogma, and denied all rights to those who were not Congregationalists.

Not to mention what we did to 'heathen' Native Americans, or the anti Catholic and anti Semitic politics of the Know Nothing party, or the KKK, which purports itself as a Christian organization.

Again, anybody with any knowledge of the Bible can make it say whatever they want to make it say. The Quran is no different.

I guess it depends upon whether a person truly desires to strive for peace or continual warfare.

[austinsm11]

So do you view Muhammad as a prophet then?

[mike_da_man13]

whats the qualifacation for becoming a prophet? being an egotistical childmolesterer? heck somebody quick lets go worship and take in the teaching of D.T.!

[CATS44]

Yes.

I consider Muhammad a prophet.

[DragonTigerNemesis]

So do you view Muhammad as a prophet then?

Muhammad was the town drunk, and spent all his time sitting in a park leaning against a tree.

Things reached a point where he had to find some way to get food, shelter, etc., so like Charles Manson and David Koresh, he started his own religion.
Like Hitler, he realized that bringing people together in hatred against the Jews would give him dictatorial power.
So he dredged up the old story of Abraham and told the Arabs "East of Eden" that they were screwed out of their birthright - The Holy Lands - and mobilized them into a religious military force hell bent on killing everyone that was not one of them, with an eye toward "world dominance" which to them meant the capture of Palestine.

Here we are, thousands of years later, and they are still killing Jews - and now us because we refuse to leave the Middle East and let them take over all the land including Israel.

Jesus may have been a prophet rather than the literal son of God, but he was not a man that can be compared to Hitler and Charles Manson.

So the answer is "No", a Muslim can never be a a good American.

Frankly, I'm getting ready to throw up reading all this crap about how we need to be tolerant of other religions, including the Muslims.
I'll show respect to the Hindus, Mormons, Jews, etc, but never to the people who follow this evil joke of a religion based on killing, jealously and hatred.

Don't ever turn you back on any of them.

[austinsm11]

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/two_faces.htm

[austinsm11]

Yes.

I consider Muhammad a prophet.

How would you compare/contrast Jesus and Muhammad as prophets?

[austinsm11]

You had better read the bio of Muhammad that I suggested. And read the link a little farther down to where agressive (non defensive) warfare, even if attacked, is condemned....and then farther down to its stance against terrorism and the targeting of civilians.


Civilians....wouldn't the caravans attacked by Muhammad be considered civilians?

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

Didnt muslims kill a reporter or writer in Europe just because he printed a real funny picture of moohomad?:drinkem:

Massillon Catholic,

If it happened, I didn't hear about it. Bottom line, that is blasphemy and punishable.

And that's Muhammad.

[CATS44]

DTN: Your post is a good example of why the world doesnt have peace.

Not one piece of your post is true.

It is this kind of hate filled commentary that we all...across all religious traditions...must avoid.

austinsm: I am not worthy to rate prophets. They have come in all shapes and sizes, and IMO are not always concerned with religion as such.But I do believe that God talks directly to all of us constantly. Very few listen and hear. We are too busy talking to Him, which to me seems rather ridiculous, because what in the world can we tell Him that He doesnt already know?

I also do not believe that God talks to only people within the Judeo-Christian religious systems.

We must also remember that the words of Jesus come to us thru others, while the words of nearly every other historical prophet come directly from them.

I believe that God has addressed mankind thru tons of prophets. While I attempt poorly to follow Jesus instructions in the Sermon on the Mount (or Plain, depending upon whether you believe Matthew or Luke), I also attempt poorly to follow the instructions of Patenjali and the Buddah.

While we look to Jesus for a path to salvation more than to other prophets, Jesus teachings were mainly concerned with the Kingdom, which he said was 'within' and 'at hand'....which means to me that his teachings were mainly concerned with how we should live our lives on this plain of existence.

The Hindus have a pantheon of gods, but looking at them closely, they appear to me to be different aspects of the same God....as opposed to separate gods. The Hindus believe in avatars...appearances of God in the flesh at critical points in history. While certainly not Christians, the Hindus generally think of Jesus as the greatest of the avatars.

As for Muslims wanting to kill Jews, that is more political than religious....and more Arab than Muslim. It is wise to remember that it has been Christians thru the centuries that have killed Jews just because they were Jews. The Muslims are about 6 million behind.

It is also wise to note that there are small pockets of Christian communities in the heart of the Middle East that have survived for nearly 2000 years....surrounded by Muslims.

The world can live in peace, but it will take a whole lot of people of all religious persuasions to overcome the very noisy and hate filled minorities. We are seeing that happen to some extent in the Middle East right now, as a strong backlash against bin Laden is swelling among mainline Muslims.

[austinsm11]

I took a look at a piece by Karen Armstrong. Wasn't one of her books, but talked about Muhammad. It seems to contradict some things The Hadith and the Sirat Rasoul Allah.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims have all had people who claimed to be followers who killed when they should not have and tried to use God to justify it.

My issue/concern is with Muhammad who is suppossedly about peace. He just had a few to many people killed who could have been spared....slaves, people who mocked him in song or poem, I believe even a blind person. Much of what Muslims believe and follow is based on him and some of his actions seem questionable at best.

[massillon catholic]

I'm tired of people telling me that I have to like other people. I dont have a problem with muslims, russians, chinese, queers, etc as long as they dont expect me to accept their principles and expect me to like them just because they fall into one of these catagories. I may very will like a muslim or russian, but don't tell me that I have too. I base my friendships on indviduals not on groups or catagories of people. Suppose, I know 1000 muslims and I like 500 of them and dislike 500 of them. Does that make me a muslim hater since I dont like all 1000?

[CATS44]

MC: Your handle suggests that you are a Christian, and it is hopefully safe to assume that as a Christian you attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Maybe you dont like others to tell you that you have to like everybody, but the leading authority in your life tells you that you MUST love EVERYBODY.

"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you."

Jesus offers no wiggle room.

And he emphasized that there was no wiggle room in his parable of the Good Samaritan. Jews hated Samaritans, and those of Jewish Orthodoxy had absolutely no dealings with them. To Jews, Samaritans of that day would somewhat correspond to Muslims today.

Whan confronted by a Jew who was intent upon legalism, Jesus told him that he must love God and also must love his neighbor as himself. The legalist asked him, "Who is my neighbor?" and Jesus replied with the parable.

Jesus compared the uncaring acts of a Hebrew priest and a Levite (of the tribe of Hebrew priests) with the compassion of a Samaritan.

If on earth today and confronted with the same question, Jesus very well could have given the parable of the Good Muslim....

A Jew was going from Jerusalem to the Gaza Strip when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A rabbi happened to be going down the same road but, when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Muslim came where the man was and, when he saw him, he took pity on him. He gave the man first aid, dressing his wounds and stopping the bleeding. As soon as he was able to travel he took him to a nearby hospital. "Look after him," he told, "and when I return I will pay for any extra expense you may have."

While other Jews had no dealings with Samaritans, Jesus frequently traveled thru Samaria and interacted on several notable occasions. If He were on earth today, perhaps he would interact with Muslims, and give them the parable of the Good American...

A Sunni Muslim was traveling from Damascus to Baghdad when he was attacked by thieves. They stole his wallet and his watch, beat him and went on their way, leaving him half dead. An Iman happened to be going down the same road but, when he saw the man, passed by on the other side. So too a Shi'a Muslim passed by on the other side of the road, ignoring him. But an American saw the man and took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds. Then he put the man on the backseat of his SVU and, ignoring the blood that stained his seats, took him to the nearest hospital. The next day he took out money to pay for his hospitalization. "Look after him," he told the hospital staff, "and when I return I will pay for any extra expense you may have."

I understand your feelings, and I also have folks that I interact with that I find more than trying, but Jesus' rules apply at all times...and so we must both work towards loving those we dont always want to love.

BTW, Islam has the same kind of rule.

"None of you (truly) believe until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

Peace

[tig62]

A few good reads in the defense(apologetics) of Christianity are:


C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christianity" (A classic)

Timothy Keller: "The Reason for God, Belief in an Age of Skepticism" (A new publication)
Some of the questions Keller addresses in this book are:

Why does God allow suffering in this world?

How could a loving God send people to hell?

Why isn't Christianity more inclusive?

How can one religion be "right" and the others wrong?

Why have so many wars been fought in the name of God?

Hasn't science disproved Christianity?

Can the Bible be taken literally?

[chap]

Didnt muslims kill a reporter or writer in Europe just because he printed a real funny picture of moohomad?:drinkem:I believe that just maybe,they beheaded some Americans. I also believe that children danced in the streets in New Jersey celebrating 911. That's why everyone should bend over backwards for these folks.

[massillon catholic]

I believe that just maybe,they beheaded some Americans. I also believe that children danced in the streets in New Jersey celebrating 911. That's why everyone should bend over backwards for these folks.


Sure, we feed them, give them constitutional rights, lawyers etc. and they be-head American soldiers and we are the bad guys. Go figure!!

[dataintsmiff]

And the answer to the original question is still a large resounding NO!!!

[CarlE]

And the answer to the original question is still a large resounding NO!!!

Actually, the answer to the original question is YES. A dead one.

[Indiana95]

Actually, the answer to the original question is YES. A dead one.

One word....tartuffe!:furious:

I'll be curious to see what your buddy Keno has to say about how you feel about him...

[CarlE]

One word....tartuffe!:furious:

I'll be curious to see what your buddy Keno has to say about how you feel about him...


One word. Mooslim. The same thing as tartuffe which is literal terms means a religious hypocrite. And there is no more a hypocritical religion than one that adheres to flying planes into buildings, right there big guy?

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

TigerswillbeTigers pointed out something to me about Muslims on the old MassillonProud.com that come from Michigan as they have the highest population in the U.S. I think Detroit is #2 behind Dearborn at best.

For more on Muslims, take a look at this before coming to further judgments: http://www.detroitmuslims.com/default.asp

[CarlE]

Another reason Michigan should be nuked off the face of the earth.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

CarlE,

Now things get interesting my Methodist poster of posters.

Not for nothing but if you nuke Michigan, you can say goodbye to the rivalry with Ohio State! And from what I also learned in government classes...an attack on one state is considered an attack on the United States.

P.S. Where is that Massillon lady (religious upbringing TBD) at in all of this? I know she will have some taunts to offer up about Muslims...oh that's right, Kamd50 (the Italian Catholic poster of posters) would have told her to shut up and sat her down.

[dataintsmiff]

Actually, the answer to the original question is YES. A dead one.

:lol: