Can we compete year in and year out????

[tigpro]

I am looking at tonight's loss to Mentor as recurring problem of something that has been bothering since the early 90's . Mentor has 1400 kids to pull from year in and year out, and we have roughly 600. I think that is just totally unfair. In competion, you have to have a fair playing field to start, and when we face the big schools, even with our best teams since the 80's we are at a disadvantge to start.


Because of our tradition, we play like we have at least a 1000 kids!( heart and desire)!! But.......... when we do not have the athletes that we had last year, and like we do this year, playing the schedule that we are currently playing is not the best situation for the Tigers!!!!

If you look at history, one in every 15 years we have a shot at a DI title, only to lose to a Catholic school that can pull from anywhere in Ohio, or Kentucky( if you are Moeller, year in and year out without getting a recruiting violation).

How are we going to compete?????? I am a true tiger fan. and I respect the old school tiger fans who were going to games before I was born, however reality is reality, and at some point, we are going to have to make a decision: Can we compete, year in and year out with the big public schools, and can we compete with the (recruiting) parochial schools.

At this point I would say the answer is no!!! Especially when we do not have a really gifted team!

Go Tigers!!!!!!

[DAWGH8R]

Mentors 1500 means JACK !!! I know teams with 300 , that are better than Mentor !! Enrollment didn't lose this game !!!

Back to the drawing board !! Tonight's game plan was weak !!

[tiger74]

sorry but they play the same 11 we do. if are kids don't come to play they lose. look they can compete. we were driving and had a turn over. it comes down to how we execute. we did neither tonight. I think the problem lies with the chicken $#%! teams in the fed who will not schedule us. this forces us to schedule many tough games. we could try to schedule teams but if they say no, well then you have what we call a tough schedule. we had decient teams we played { garfield, fitch, mansfield} well guess what we beat them for over 10 years, maybe not every year, but enough to say we are done playing. we have tried to get in the fed to help with the schedule so as to not have 5-6 toughies in a row. but were DENIED!!!! they may have all them kids on the sideline but over HALF do not play. look its all good to have say 100 kids standing on the sideline, but most will not see the field unless there is a injury. also I don't claim to have all the answers. have we even tried to schedule green, brunswick, wadsworth, wooster. my guess is NONE of those teams will play us. thats my take on this whole mess.

[Munson]

The biggest difference between the bigger enrolled schools could be the area of depth. How deep is our depth this year? Obviously the coaches want to put the best 11 on the field during the games, but how about practices to make those guys better? Are there enough guys with the amount of talent needed to make a practice challenging? I've read on some other threads comments about not seeing a spread offense before. Are there enough talented 2's and 3's on our depth chart to run that offense effectively in practice? There are many, many 1st year starters on this year's team who are underclassmen and there are a few seniors who are not starters. Sizewise, except for the o-line, how do we compare to the rest of our competition? History shows that for most public schools in DI you will have a really good team every 4-5 years and that run will maybe last 2 seasons. Look at Massillon - During the past 20 years, they have made serious runs in the playoffs about every 4-5 years, (maybe every 3 in some cases), and then goes through some "leaner years" until the talent level comes back up. Now, I'll admit, I am now expert, these are just some observations.

[Portage]

tiger74 wrote: "it comes down to how we execute. we did neither tonight. I think the problem lies with the chicken $#%! teams in the fed..."

:rolleyes:

[Scooter]

Can we compete year in and year out???
NO!!!! How many state finals has Massillon played in since the playoffs started? How many has Massillon won?
Massillon has ONE state title in the last FORTY YEARS!!

[Red50Go]

I dont agree entirely, but depth is a concern. That is a reality. We lose a star like Porrini and it really throws us off more than other, larger, schools. Look at our offense now vs before he got hurt. When we are loaded, and we stay healthy, sure, we can compete at a high level.

And anyone who tells me losing Porrini hasn't impacted our offense, let alone D, dont waste your breath on me.

[TigerDL71]

teams with depth can run things a lot more different then teams with not as much depth esp. at practice, if you have that much depth you don't have as many kids going both ways and the players are able to just concentrate on playing one side of the ball the whole week leading up to the game, not trying to learn two different game plans, on top of studying for test and the everyday stresses of high school, that is a lot of stuff for a kid to learn in one week,i have heard too learn both side of the ball for one week and at times it was hard just remembering where to lineup, anyone who goes both ways and doesn't really come out deserves a lot of credit, you really have to be in pretty good shape to be able to do that but who knows over a course of a season how much wear and tear this has on a player over the course of a season

[CarlE]

I am looking at tonight's loss to Mentor as recurring problem of something that has been bothering since the early 90's . Mentor has 1400 kids to pull from year in and year out, and we have roughly 600. I think that is just totally unfair. In competion, you have to have a fair playing field to start, and when we face the big schools, even with our best teams since the 80's we are at a disadvantge to start.


Because of our tradition, we play like we have at least a 1000 kids!( heart and desire)!! But.......... when we do not have the athletes that we had last year, and like we do this year, playing the schedule that we are currently playing is not the best situation for the Tigers!!!!

If you look at history, one in every 15 years we have a shot at a DI title, only to lose to a Catholic school that can pull from anywhere in Ohio, or Kentucky( if you are Moeller, year in and year out without getting a recruiting violation).

How are we going to compete?????? I am a true tiger fan. and I respect the old school tiger fans who were going to games before I was born, however reality is reality, and at some point, we are going to have to make a decision: Can we compete, year in and year out with the big public schools, and can we compete with the (recruiting) parochial schools.

At this point I would say the answer is no!!! Especially when we do not have a really gifted team!

Go Tigers!!!!!!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Tiger Flame]

As red50go said about Porrini is right on the money as he is a very talented player and I expected him to be right up there with Gamble and Daily and every talented player makes it easier for the others to do even better as they aid each other. This has been a big loss for the Tigers. GO TIGERS BEAT IGGY

[Fats]

I think we did compete in this game. 0 - 0 at halftime. TD not counted.

Look at the Stats. They seem pretty equal to me. WHAT we did not do was execute and play fundamentally sound football.

So if some of you posters want to bring up the "we can't compete" every time we lose then maybe you should go watch your FED(fav)orite league and cheer on those teams, because that is what you want us to become.

When you say we can not compete, you look over the facts of our history. Our regional championships, our state final games, our National Reputation.

WE competed in this game, WE just did not BEat Mentor. SO if you do not think this TIGER team or future Tiger Teams can compete then go watch the FED or the neighborhood kids playing in the backyards. I watch the TIGERS compete against great teams in and out of the State of OHIO. Question, How many FED teams have been to the State finals, won regional championships, final fours. I will put our stats up against 99% of the FED. AND one more point, IF the FED is so good and can COMPETE against us then Schedule us. I am sure Coach Stacy and the Admin would do HOME and HOME, just give us 1/2 the Tickets for your stadiums.

[1977Tiger]

It's kinda weird quoting myself from another thread, but this seems to better fit into this one.

"I've never heard anyone say "size kills" when referring to football. Somewhere along the line, Massillon football started believing that if you have a 300 pound kid, put him on the line and we will be dominant at that spot. Put 4 300 pounders on the line and we will run over everyone. The fact is that there are few people in the world more out of shape and un-athletic as a 300 pound 17 year old kid. They are out there playing football and they have trouble just walking up a flight of steps or getting out of the bath tub. They run 5.5 or slower in the 40 for gosh sakes!! If they don't have a heart attack first, a college coach can turn them into an athlete because the kid is turning into a man at that time in his life and the fat starts turning into muscle. But in high school, teams using 240 pound athletes on the O and D lines win the championships. We always outweigh the parochial schools. They are always quicker. And we know who usually wins.

It's good that we have such fast backs, but you can forget taking advantage of that because they will always outrun their blockers. Gamble is usually out there all by himself on sweeps, getting hit by 2 or 3 defenders. He can't wait for his blocking either because the entire backside D will be in his face by then. Why do you think he has to tippy-toe up to the line between tackles? Because his own linemen are in his way (and HUGE, remember) and he'll run right into one if he attacks the line with reckless abandon. And finally, you see what kind of pass protection Huth gets. So we can't consistently sweep, run between tackles, or pass well against the better teams. And whoever mentioned running the OPTION?? That would be a disaster. I know we have some eager 220-240 pound athletes on the sideline that could help speed things up a bit. Speed Kills, right?"

[Purple Hayes]

I think the problem lies with the chicken $#%! teams in the fed who will not schedule us. this forces us to schedule many tough games.

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while...yes, it's a conspiracy/LMAO.

Compare Mentor's first 5 games to Massillon's. Mentor had a lot tougher road than Massillon, so I'm not sure that excuse holds water.

Give Mentor some credit. And stop making outlandish excuses.

[Red50Go]

PH, Mentor had it tougher? How much tougher? We had Moeller clear down in Cincy, Mentor on the road, and a Hamilton team much tougher & physical than you or anyone on the outside can even acknowledge. Now off to Iggy and @ Warren.

Our inability to schedule Fed schools, or application to join, is well documented. Massillon could be sitting pretty like Mckinley. Maybe fat, dumb & happy, but nonetheless in better shape.

Fine to debate, but w/ our numbers, not so rediculous or outlandish from where I sit.

[Purple Hayes]

PH, Mentor had it tougher? How much tougher? We had Moeller clear down in Cincy, Mentor on the road, and a Hamilton team much tougher & physical than you or anyone on the outside can even acknowledge. Now off to Iggy and @ Warren.

Our inability to schedule Fed schools, or application to join, is well documented. Massillon could be sitting pretty like Mckinley. Maybe fat, dumb & happy, but nonetheless in better shape.

Fine to debate, but w/ our numbers, not so rediculous or outlandish from where I sit.

No comparison on the schedule...if you don't agree that Mentor's first four games were tougher then I can't really help you.

Point taken on your other points and a couple of options:

1) Drop to D-II next year if/when the OHSAA re-sizes

2) Join a league

[ChronicTiger]

tigpro, How do you define compete year in and year out?

Do you expect to be in the state championship game every year? Being in the regional championship game every year is even a lofty expectation. Nobody can compete like that year in and year out. You use Mentor as an example for the "we cant compete argument" because of enrollment. Ask yourself this, Can Mentor compete year in and year out? When is the last time they have been to the championship game? When have they won the region they play in?

We got beat by a good team, no shame in that.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

There's a limited number of crappy teams from D.C and Canada that will come to our house!
A better approach would be to beat good teams on a regular basis and win our share of games against great teams. If that formula doesn't work then we can forget ever winning a championship!

[Red50Go]

No comparison on the schedule...if you don't agree that Mentor's first four games were tougher then I can't really help you.

Point taken on your other points and a couple of options:

1) Drop to D-II next year if/when the OHSAA re-sizes

2) Join a league

I said by how much? And I count 5 games. I agree Mentor's was slightly tougher to date, but Hamilton and @ Moeller could just as easily be 2 losses vs their wins vs Glenville or Solon. And you conveniently take Iggy and @ Warren, w/ Mckinley remaining, out of our equation. Who does Mentor have left? The simple point is Massillon is forced to play a hard schedule, and out of state teams. Thats all.

Yes Mentor has a tough schedule. Yes they are very good this year.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

We have played 15 regular season games in 2005 and 2006. We have 12 wins and 3 losses during that time.
8 of our wins have come against Dover, Mansfield Sr., Chardon, Youngstown Wilson, Eastlake N., a really bad Warren G.H., North Park Canada, and Woodson D.C..
Our 3 losses have come against McKinley, Moeller, and Mentor. Obviously we have no problem dismantling the weak opponents on our schedule, but we still can't seem to win more than we lose against our better regular season opponents!
"Can we compete year in and year out"?

[tiger#22]

We have played 15 regular season games in 2005 and 2006. We have 12 wins and 3 losses during that time.
8 of our wins have come against Dover, Mansfield Sr., Chardon, Youngstown Wilson, Eastlake N., a really bad Warren G.H., North Park Canada, and Woodson D.C..
Our 3 losses have come against McKinley, Moeller, and Mentor. Obviously we have no problem dismantling the weak opponents on our schedule, but we still can't seem to win more than we lose against our better regular season opponents!
"Can we compete year in and year out"?

I guess the 4 playoff wins last year didnt count? Not to mention St Ig last year in Parma or Elder in Cincy. Did you also forget the Arizona team just last week?? How convenient ...:doh2:
BEAT IG!!!
:TIG2:

[TigerswillbeTigers]

What part of my posts being about playing good teams and competing during the "REGULAR SEASON" didn't you understand!
BTW! What was Elders record last year? Wasn't that one of their worst teams in recent years?

How convenient to want to change the focus to a playoff run that included wins over a weak Hoover team, a weak Findlay team, and a miracle win against St Eds prior to a loss!

Again, this thread referenced "competing year in and year out"! Get back to me at the end of the season. Hopefully we won't be discussing the Tigers only making a playoff appearance once in the past 4 seasons after the high expectations that surrounded this years team!

BEAT IGGY!:gogogo:

[Smitty]

... How convenient to want to change the focus to a playoff run that included wins over a weak Hoover team, a weak Findlay team, and a miracle win against St Eds prior to a loss! ....

FWIW, I wouldn't say that was a "weak" Findlay team last year ('05).

[mike_da_man13]

year in and year out can we compete with the top in the state?
yes if the transfers continue to come in but if they dont (i mean guys like miller and yoder) we dont stand a chance of competing with the big boys. thats what it will come down to is transfers we cant do it by ourselves at the d1 level.

[tiger#22]

What part of my posts being about playing good teams and competing during the "REGULAR SEASON" didn't you understand!
BTW! What was Elders record last year? Wasn't that one of their worst teams in recent years?

How convenient to want to change the focus to a playoff run that included wins over a weak Hoover team, a weak Findlay team, and a miracle win against St Eds prior to a loss!

Again, this thread referenced "competing year in and year out"! Get back to me at the end of the season. Hopefully we won't be discussing the Tigers only making a playoff appearance once in the past 4 seasons after the high expectations that surrounded this years team!

BEAT IGGY!:gogogo:

What part of beating Ig and Elder both on the road and Hamilton AZ all with enrollments double of Massillon didnt you understand and yes those came during the REGULAR SEASON?? So it is ok if we dont compete with those teams during the regular season but if we compete with them and beat them in the playoffs that is ok? So your saying that the 4 playoff games the Tigers won last year were all either against weak teams or miracles? So Hoover, Findlay, Mckinley and St Ed's all were weaker then the teams you mentioned in your previous post? You cant have it both ways either we compete in both the Regular Season AND Playoffs:wall: with teams or we dont.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

One last time 22! I was discussing REGULAR SEASON OPPONENTS and whether or not we can compete with the best teams on our "schedule" year in and year out when you felt compelled to interject the playoff games!
Like I said, lets hope we're not talking about a program that's only made one playoff appearance in the past 4 seasons after this year!

As usual, you're right again, and everyone else in this world is wrong!!!!!!!!

Does that make you feel good?

[kj02]

We should not debate D1 and D2 with every single game we play . When this season is through we need to look at it as a whole . Even if we are a division 2 school next year , I can almost guarentee we will continue to play a division 1 schedule . Like it or not that is Massillon football !!!

[Grandma Turtle]

Mentors 1500 means JACK !!! I know teams with 300 , that are better than Mentor !! Enrollment didn't lose this game !!!

Back to the drawing board !! Tonight's game plan was weak !!

:doh: :stars:

[RossFan]

Massillon needs to join a league to solve this scheduling thing. A league like the Greater Buckeye Confrence or the Federal League. We all know hell will freeze over before you guys join the fed. So that leaves the GBC. It has schools that are similiar in size to Massillon. Napoleon, Sandusky, Fremont, and Findlay all have over 550 wins. If you could get over the travel issue it seems to be a perfect fit. You would still have 4 non league games but thats a hell of a lot better than trying to find 9.

[Kamd50]

I just remembered, Coach Stacy said this morning that they are in talks with somebody to schedule a game with in week 4. He said that he wouldn't say who right now, but that it was an area team and sounded hopeful about it happening.

[ChronicTiger]

In short....YES, we can.......

:thumbsup:

[Obie Wan]

I just remembered, Coach Stacy said this morning that they are in talks with somebody to schedule a game with in week 4. He said that he wouldn't say who right now, but that it was an area team and sounded hopeful about it happening.
"Area" is an indefinate term, no? It's not a Fed school (league play), and probably not a DI (since their aren't many around). Garfield, maybe? Or course, it's been a while since we've played Central. ;)

[tiger#22]

One last time 22! I was discussing REGULAR SEASON OPPONENTS and whether or not we can compete with the best teams on our "schedule" year in and year out when you felt compelled to interject the playoff games!
Like I said, lets hope we're not talking about a program that's only made one playoff appearance in the past 4 seasons after this year!

As usual, you're right again, and everyone else in this world is wrong!!!!!!!!

Does that make you feel good?

Not everyone else in the world is wrong,,,just YOU! I think we all found it funny in your original post that you just happened to leave off St Ig and Elder from last years REGULAR SEASON, 2 wins that I think everyone would agree were the 2 biggest wins of the regular season last year. It is your problem that you cant accept when someone proves you wrong...Next...

[longtimefirsttime]

We should not debate D1 and D2 with every single game we play . When this season is through we need to look at it as a whole . Even if we are a division 2 school next year , I can almost guarentee we will continue to play a division 1 schedule . Like it or not that is Massillon football !!!
:iagree:

[Benchboss1]

Not everyone else in the world is wrong,,,just YOU! I think we all found it funny in your original post that you just happened to leave off St Ig and Elder from last years REGULAR SEASON, 2 wins that I think everyone would agree were the 2 biggest wins of the regular season last year. It is your problem that you cant accept when someone proves you wrong...Next...



I think that you are forgetting that Ignatius lost their best player last year due to injury, you remember him, the receiver that we could NOT cover all night? You also seem to conveniently not comment on the fact that Elder was not very good last year. Why is that? I think you need to get your head out of the sand and see the REAL world.

[tiger#22]

I think that you are forgetting that Ignatius lost their best player last year due to injury, you remember him, the receiver that we could NOT cover all night? You also seem to conveniently not comment on the fact that Elder was not very good last year. Why is that? I think you need to get your head out of the sand and see the REAL world.

I think that you are forgetting what team/player put that Ig receiver out for the year. As for Elder, so your saying that going on the road to Cincy in Week 2 with a new Coach who had only been Coach for about 2 months that the Tigers were favored and expected to win? Are you also saying that Ig and Elder were not the 2 biggest wins during the Regular Season last year? Were the Tigers the underdog in both? Did the Tigers win both?
I find it amusing how after those wins last season all we read on here was how it was such a huge win, finally the Tigers are winning games they arent favored in unlike with Shepas and on and on and now we cant compete with teams in the Regular Season,,Like I said earlier you guys who want to drop to Div 4 and play in the Fed cant have it both ways,,either jump on the bandwagon and stay on or get the he77 off.

[tiger#22]

I think that you are forgetting that Ignatius lost their best player last year due to injury, you remember him, the receiver that we could NOT cover all night? You also seem to conveniently not comment on the fact that Elder was not very good last year. Why is that? I think you need to get your head out of the sand and see the REAL world.

Do you have an excuse for Hamilton, AZ too ?:doh2:

[Obie Wan]

I think that you are forgetting that Ignatius lost their best player last year due to injury, you remember him, the receiver that we could NOT cover all night?
And I think that you're forgetting that he missed all of 4 plays in the game.

[tiger4life]

It's good that we have such fast backs, but you can forget taking advantage of that because they will always outrun their blockers.

This is a fantastic observation. I hope someone catches it.

[tigpro]

I did not intend to start such a mess about who we can compete against in the playoffs regular seaon etc...... What I do know is this: If you crunch the numbers on our record against big D1 schools and (parochial schools) since the 80's I bet that you will find a losing overall record. If you look at what we accomplished last year it is on par for what I initally said: once in every 15 years we go deep into the playoffs.

I am not trying to bash our traditon, nor am I trying to talk negative about our program. I am sick of playing these schools where right off the bat we are at a huge disadvantage when you are outnumbered 2:1 as far as boys enrollment. Either Massillon needs to grow, or we are going to see the same results as we have seen in the past....... When we have a really good team, like last year, or when we had Justin Zwick,or 1991 we always seem to fall short of the ultimate goal .

If you give Massillon 1200 kids to pull from every year, I would almost guarantee that we would be in the regional finals or state championship every year in and year out. We are not Mentor, who very seldomly has a team like they do this year.

Please do not take my post as being negative! We lack the numbers that it takes to compete at a high level year in and year out. That is what I am tring to say!

Beat Cleveland University!!! Or I mean St. Ignatius!!!!

[tiger74]

purple hayes, how is my post rediculous when we can't schedule some local teams to witch we have a better shot of beating. when we don't schedule some local/fed schools and that has us playing a much tougher schedule. do you really think mckinley would be 5-0 with are schedule we have had to date. I'm going to say NO!!! I find it funny that you think my post is a conspiracy. look I like playing some tough teams but not having 5-6 in a row. so I guess i was pointing to the fact that when local teams will not play us we end up with alot of tough games in a row.

[1977Tiger]

My son is a freshman at St. X (forgive me). He plays bball (hopefully), not football. Because of the high academic standards, half of the boys are of the pocket protector variety. There's nothing wrong with that. I'd rather my son be a genius than an athlete. Anyway, that leaves about 700 kids with varying athletic skills. Forget the recruiting excuse. Very few kids are there because they are good football players. The school legally promotes it's academics and environment, which are absolutely unbelievable. Every opportunity in the world is available to every kid. I am overwhemlingly impressed after only a month's exposure. Parents send their kids there, at great expense, so they don't have to send them to a school system with a 50% dropout rate. Massillon is much more likely to get some kid like Zwick to transfer there, solely for football, than St. X is. And he doesn't have to pass a killer test just to be considered. The large public schools (Colerain, Mentor, MCKINLEY) should be the ones dominating year in and year out. My guess is that the Parochial schools are just more disciplined.

[obiefan]

Conversation resumes here:
http://massillonproud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=935