Looking for opinions on..................

[Benchboss1]

the concerns mentioned by Jeff David about our ELECTED school board not ALL being there for the right reasons. It sure seems that one of the members certainly has their own agenda, especially when it comes to getting members of their family jobs within the school system.
It also seems like at least two members do not want the football program to prosper as much as it possibly can. Other thoughts?

[tigers17]

I have said for years now.THERE ARE NO MASSILLON PEOPLE RUNNING ARE
SCHOOLS HELLO ANY ONE OUT THERE!!!!!!!!Look at the folks in charge no
one lives in massillon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Out of the top ten maybe on two
of them live in the school district.

[actoral]

the concerns mentioned by Jeff David about our ELECTED school board not ALL being there for the right reasons. It sure seems that one of the members certainly has their own agenda, especially when it comes to getting members of their family jobs within the school system.
It also seems like at least two members do not want the football program to prosper as much as it possibly can. Other thoughts?

Having been associated with public schools for a long, long time it is my observation that the current system of "school board directors" is and has been a complete failure. Most of the people who aspire to these positions have an agenda (or an axe to grind). There are no provisions or rules for qualification, consequently few, if any, board members have the improvement of conditions for the students and/or faculty truly at heart. There are ways of improving this system, but it would involve a candidate to qualify by having taken a core curriculum of classes ( not necessarily a degree) in such areas as school finance, school curriculum, collective bargaining, etc.. These should be paid positions and the board be held accountable to their constituents. Additionally,the schools would be much more efficient if the politicians would keep their noses out of an area in which they have little or no knowledge, i.e. "no child left behind". Just an opinion.

[CATS44]

If you want to place blame, put it where it belongs.

In a Democracy the final results lay on the shoulders of the folks who make the final decisions....and those folks are the voters. In other words, look in the mirror.

60% of the present BOE have won reelection at least once. Strong reservations were posted upon this forum about one of the newest BOE members as he was running for the position.

If, as a voter, you are not going to look closely at the candidates BEFORE they are elected...if you are not going to demand specific answers to your specific concers BEFORE they are elected, you get what we have now.

Everybody in this town who was paying attention knew that certain members of the BOE were using their positions as a job bank for freinds and relatives...and yet they get elected over and over. Everybody who was paying attention knew about the sham search committee for the last football coach. Everybody who was paying attention knew about the constant infighting and behind the scenes undermining of the football program in Sheps last two years by the administration while the BOE looked on and said nothing.

Its exactly the same with school funding. We all know where the problem lies, and the state Supreme Court has made it abundantly clear, but we still vote year after year for the incumbent state reps.

We, as voters, CAN fix the problems with our BOE and administration. We CAN solve the state funding crisis. But only we can do it. And we can only do it before the fact. Wringing our hands over the results of our voting after the fact wont get it done.

[Rushfan]

Everytime there's an election concerning BOE members,I try my darndest to vote the inept incumbents out,but they keep getting re-elected. It's like fighting a losing battle. People in this town constantly complain about the way the schools are run,but they keep re-electing these fools.

[Kamd50]

Because a lot of the time, there is no one running against them. I hope next time that some particular board members' term is up, that someone who is honest and has some integrity runs, and not someone who has their own personal agendas or are intent on getting all of their family jobs in the school district. Wouldn't it be great if certain board members would just up and do the right thing and resign, NOW, knowing that there is so much disgust and distrust and disappointment in them by the taxpayers of Massillon?!

[Benchboss1]

Kamd50, there is NO way certain BOE members will resign. What are you thinking? If they were to resign, how would they get their family members jobs?

This is a RUMOR, but I have been told that a certain person that just had their job eliminated, is being pushed for a different job within the school district. Again, this is a RUMOR that I have heard. Having said that it is a RUMOR, were that scenario to actually play out in real life, would it REALLY surprise anybody?

[Kamd50]

IF that RUMOR happens to come to pass, they better be prepared for all hell breaking loose in this town! The mere thought of it totally disgusts and infuriates me! If there are some job openings, then how about the BOE doing the RIGHT thing and perhaps offering them to some of the assistants that Coach Hall may be wanting to bring onboard?

[massillon catholic]

IF that RUMOR happens to come to pass, they better be prepared for all hell breaking loose in this town! The mere thought of it totally disgusts and infuriates me! If there are some job openings, then how about the BOE doing the RIGHT thing and perhaps offering them to some of the assistants that Coach Hall may be wanting to bring onboard?

Keep in mind real estate is down and a second income is important.

[Kamd50]

Keep in mind real estate is down and a second income is important.

Keep in mind that MOST people have to go out and find a job on their own merit and hard work.

[jayjay65]

the concerns mentioned by Jeff David about our ELECTED school board not ALL being there for the right reasons. It sure seems that one of the members certainly has their own agenda, especially when it comes to getting members of their family jobs within the school system.
It also seems like at least two members do not want the football program to prosper as much as it possibly can. Other thoughts?

I think I see light bulbs coming on all over town...it's good to see!

Everytime there's an election concerning BOE members,I try my darndest to vote the inept incumbents out,but they keep getting re-elected. It's like fighting a losing battle. People in this town constantly complain about the way the schools are run,but they keep re-electing these fools.

Shall we agree to end this the next time BOE seats come up for re-election?

Again, in my opinion the good people FAR outnumber the bad in the school system and the BOE so let's not paint everyone with the same brush. However, many of you have posted examples of questionable behavior by certain individuals - many of these examples I was unaware of (Cats can only do so much to educate me...he has to golf afterall...). So apply the heat where it deserves to be applied and in my opinion, that is not on Marshall.

[Benchboss1]

Again, in my opinion the good people FAR outnumber the bad in the school system and the BOE so let's not paint everyone with the same brush. However, many of you have posted examples of questionable behavior by certain individuals - many of these examples I was unaware of (Cats can only do so much to educate me...he has to golf afterall...). So apply the heat where it deserves to be applied and in my opinion, that is not on Marshall.


jayjay65, I agree with you to a point about Mr. Weinberg, and I am more than willing to give him some time, but IF there are things going on that should not be, then he had better attempt to do something about those things. I have gotten tired of hearing that someone is only one vote. That is a freaking crock! IF there are improper business going on, or behavior that is not in the best interests of our student athletes, then at least bring those things out to the public, you know, the public that he SERVES!

[Rushfan]

Because a lot of the time, there is no one running against them. I hope next time that some particular board members' term is up, that someone who is honest and has some integrity runs, and not someone who has their own personal agendas or are intent on getting all of their family jobs in the school district. Wouldn't it be great if certain board members would just up and do the right thing and resign, NOW, knowing that there is so much disgust and distrust and disappointment in them by the taxpayers of Massillon?!

Yup,you're right. This last time we didn't have much choice. The next time there are challengers with honesty and integrity (if ever),we need to clean house.

[LLRose]

If you want to place blame, put it where it belongs.

In a Democracy the final results lay on the shoulders of the folks who make the final decisions....and those folks are the voters. In other words, look in the mirror.

60% of the present BOE have won reelection at least once. Strong reservations were posted upon this forum about one of the newest BOE members as he was running for the position.

If, as a voter, you are not going to look closely at the candidates BEFORE they are elected...if you are not going to demand specific answers to your specific concers BEFORE they are elected, you get what we have now.

Everybody in this town who was paying attention knew that certain members of the BOE were using their positions as a job bank for freinds and relatives...and yet they get elected over and over. Everybody who was paying attention knew about the sham search committee for the last football coach. Everybody who was paying attention knew about the constant infighting and behind the scenes undermining of the football program in Sheps last two years by the administration while the BOE looked on and said nothing.

Its exactly the same with school funding. We all know where the problem lies, and the state Supreme Court has made it abundantly clear, but we still vote year after year for the incumbent state reps.

We, as voters, CAN fix the problems with our BOE and administration. We CAN solve the state funding crisis. But only we can do it. And we can only do it before the fact. Wringing our hands over the results of our voting after the fact wont get it done.

when it comes to the most important issues facing the Massillon community you rise to the top with your finest post.

[CarlE]

Keep in mind real estate is down and a second income is important.

You're still the funniest guy I know, I swear.

[TigerBuckeye313]

IF that RUMOR happens to come to pass, they better be prepared for all hell breaking loose in this town! The mere thought of it totally disgusts and infuriates me! If there are some job openings, then how about the BOE doing the RIGHT thing and perhaps offering them to some of the assistants that Coach Hall may be wanting to bring onboard?


How is offering jobs to potential assistant coaches any different? Shouldn't the positions just be given to those who are best qualified for the job?

[CATS44]

Assuming that a coach is also a qualified teacher, he/she is usually considered a more valuable asset to a school system than someone who only teaches.

It is the same in just about any enterprise. A employee that is qualified to do two jobs is more attractive than one who is qualified to do only one.

Of course, in order for a coach to be hired as a teacher, he/she has to be certified to teach a subject that the school system has an opening for. That is one of the reasons that it sometimes takes a while to fill a coaching staff. A school system doesnt always know exactly what teaching positions it will have open for the following school year until June.

In this specific situation, Coach Hall is trying to put together a staff. Some of that staff is probably already elmployed in the MCS. Im guessing that he will also wish to bring in some assistants from other districts. Those outside assistants will have to be matched up to 2008/2009 teaching openings. Those that do will probably, and should, have first priority over any other teachers applying from outside the MCS.

Some might look at that as putting athletics ahead of academics, but that is not the case. Its maximizing assets, and it is standard operating procedure for every public school district that has an athletic program.

When a school district advertises for coaches in the paper or on the OHSAA web site, you will notice that they often list the teaching openings they also have available, so that interested coaches know in advance what type of certification they need to have.

[austinsm11]

Assuming that a coach is also a qualified teacher, he/she is usually considered a more valuable asset to a school system than someone who only teaches.

It is the same in just about any enterprise. A employee that is qualified to do two jobs is more attractive than one who is qualified to do only one.

This is type of situation is interesting.

What if the teacher who doesn't coach is MUCH more qualified as a teacher than the coach is? Or what if the other teacher has experience running different clubs which are open?

The thing that bothers me is that once the openings are determined it seems like the football coaches brought in are just handed those positions. If both candidates are fairly equal as teachers, then I would definitely hire the one who coaches. There are coaches who are very good teachers. But we all know the ones who only care about the coaching aspect of the job and not the teaching aspect.

[Kamd50]

The same thing can be said of some teachers who do nothing else other than put their time in in the class room, in so far as their priorities lie. Some only care about things like their paycheck, tenure, and not having to work during the summer months. Sadly, there are those who do nothing more than physically show up; giving out assignments and notes to be taken everyday, but never really "teach".

Usually teachers are hired based on their interview and recommendations from past employers and character references. Other than that, there really is no sure fire way to know whether they will turn out to be a good teacher or not, much like coaching. You usually have to give them a chance and see how it turns out.

P.S. Thanks, Catts

Also, it is not true that every assist. that a HC wants to bring in gets automatic priority over other teachers. Many times our HC's couldn't acquire certain assists. because of not being able to help them find employment in our school system.

[austinsm11]

Usually teachers are hired based on their interview and recommendations from past employers and character references.

And based on who they know.


Also, it is not true that every assist. that a HC wants to bring in gets automatic priority over other teachers. Many times our HC's couldn't acquire certain assists. because of not being able to help them find employment in our school system.

Right. If they couldn't get teaching positions it is because there were not any in the assistants' licensure area. If there is an opening in the assistants' licensure area they do get priority.

[Kamd50]

And based on who they know.



Right. If they couldn't get teaching positions it is because there were not any in the assistants' licensure area. If there is an opening in the assistants' licensure area they do get priority.

Is that how you obtained your teaching position? Based on who you know rather than your qualifications?

[austinsm11]

Is that how you obtained your teaching position? Based on who you know rather than your qualifications?

Actually it is.

Although at least the people I knew weren't family members and they knew my qualifications.

[Kamd50]

Well, in that broad sense then, I am sure that when any teacher is hired anywhere that their qualifications are brought to the attention of the interviewer during the interview process via the application and references.

[austinsm11]

Well, in that broad sense then, I am sure that when any teacher is hired anywhere that their qualifications are brought to the attention of the interviewer during the interview process via the application and references.

I'm sure too. Qualifications such as the last name and who it relates to in the district or if they coach a "major" sport.


BTW, I'm not sure what the answer is. I realize that we need to have the best coaches, but should we sacrafice academics for it?

[Red50Go]

Are we talking specifically about WHS or general philosophy? Every program in the state allows the head coach of a major program to select at least some of their own assistants, given that they are qualified elsewhere.

[Red50Go]

This is type of situation is interesting.

What if the teacher who doesn't coach is MUCH more qualified as a teacher than the coach is? Or what if the other teacher has experience running different clubs which are open?


I would hire the MUCH more qualified teacher and make them offensive coordinator. Right answer?

[austinsm11]

Are we talking specifically about WHS or general philosophy? Every program in the state allows the head coach of a major program to select at least some of their own assistants, given that they are qualified elsewhere.

In general.

If we give letter grades to teachers then let's say that the teacher is an A and the teacher/coach is a C. Who gets the job?

What if it is closer? The teacher is A- and teacher/coach is B+.

What if the teacher is willing and has past experience supervising the drama club, spanish club, and student council?

I don't think there is always an easy answer.

[CATS44]

Of course there are never a lot of easy answers, which is why a school district will have a matrix, to use the new hot term in the MCS, for hiring teachers. There are lots of variables.

1)In order to keep salary costs down, Massillon, along with most schools, is going to look for young teachers as replacements.

2)Because of the higher salary structures at some of the suburban schools, it MCS not going to get a ton of applications from teachers who have a vast amount of experience. Most of the experienced teachers come here because they can do more then work in a classroom. They are either targeted by MCS, or they have targetted MCS. That does include things other than coaching.

3) Schools also are eager to hire for certain hard to obtain situations.

One of those would be a young male teacher certified in elementary education. Most elementary teachers are female, and schools like to have a male teaching presence in every building. This has become more and more important because many children are growing up without a strong male presence at home.

Now, if a school system can find a young male elementary teacher who is also qualified to coach a position of need, they have hit the jackpot. If that teacher also happens to be African-American, a city school system has really hit the jackpot.

4) Putting together a staff of certified personnel for an entire school system that covers every need, meeting the requirements of the collective bargaining agreement, and staying within a limited budget, is a difficult job.

When you think of a job applicant, you usually think of somebody out of work who needs a job. You think of a situation in which the employer is going to have lots of options and will check references, while the apllicant just wants the job. That is not generally the case with experienced school administrators. They are free agents looking for a better job, just like football coaches who apply at Massillon. One of the things some administrators look at is the school systems teacher turnover rate....because putting together a certified staff to fit every need and meet every requirement is a pain in the butt.

5) I really think there should be some type of policy put in place that would eliminate the hiring of relatives and friends of BOE members and administrators, but I admit that it would take some thinking to put together just the right policy.

It is true, I admit, that we would lose the opportunity to hire a few qualified personnel...personnel that we would already know perfectly, that would do an outstanding job.

But it always leads to sliding down that proverbial slippery slope. Once you hire one relative, no matter how well qualified, the deal making begins.

"We hired your kid, so we will hire my brother."

"I went along with hiring your spouse, so you push for my new contract."

" You vote for my plan, and I will vote to hire your niece."

IMO the cons outweigh the pros.

On the other hand, deal making is how government works, outside of an absolute dictatorship. It is the grease that makes the wheels go round....so I could be wrong.

Lets assume that I AM wrong, which wouldnt be surprising. How, then, do we keep the grease without becoming so outlandish that we end up with outsiders coming in to investigate our hiring practices?

The answer to that question goes back, like everything else, to the voters. We voters need to make integrity THE prerequisite for the candidates we choose.

Sorry for the rambling. This whole situation, everything that has happened over the last several months...the last several years...has me talking to myself.

[austinsm11]

1)In order to keep salary costs down, Massillon, along with most schools, is going to look for young teachers as replacements.


Which is why teacher salaries should come from the state.

[austinsm11]

When you think of a job applicant, you usually think of somebody out of work who needs a job. You think of a situation in which the employer is going to have lots of options and will check references, while the apllicant just wants the job. That is not generally the case with experienced school administrators. They are free agents looking for a better job, just like football coaches who apply at Massillon. One of the things some administrators look at is the school systems teacher turnover rate....because putting together a certified staff to fit every need and meet every requirement is a pain in the butt.


So is a middle school principal with NO superintendent experience the best we can do?

Would we hire a football coach who has only coached at the middle school level?

[CATS44]

1) If you want the state to run the school system, thats a whole different ball game.

2) IMO a wrong analogy. Massillon has frequently hired Supers with no previous experience as such. So have several other districts in the area. Most of them have come from within, or had previous experience within the district.

I dont know who the other options were, or their salary demands, so I am in no position to even have an opinion as to whether DiLoreto made the most sense. But we had done a recent search for a Super, so we did have an idea of what we were looking for and who might be available.

[austinsm11]

1) If you want the state to run the school system, thats a whole different ball game.

2) IMO a wrong analogy. Massillon has frequently hired Supers with no previous experience as such. So have several other districts in the area. Most of them have come from within, or had previous experience within the district.

I dont know who the other options were, or their salary demands, so I am in no position to even have an opinion as to whether DiLoreto made the most sense. But we had done a recent search for a Super, so we did have an idea of what we were looking for and who might be available.

I didn't say the state should run the school system. I said if the state paid the salaries. Then systems don't have to worry about hiring younger, cheaper teachers. They hire the best and most experienced.

How has hiring Supers with no previous experience worked out? Who have they hired with no experience? I'm not really sure who has had experience in the past and who has not. I would think that many districts (at least the ones that are Massillon's size and larger) are at least hiring Supers who have either been an assistant Super or at a minimum a high school principal for a number of years. Also, if the state paid the Super's salary and it is based on school size or number of employees, then salary demands wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Maybe Diloreto was the best candidate. What stinks is that we will never know.

[CATS44]

He who has the gold rules. He who signs the checks makes the rules.

With all due respect, if the state paid the salaries, it would run the school systems.

[austinsm11]

He who has the gold rules. He who signs the checks makes the rules.

With all due respect, if the state paid the salaries, it would run the school systems.

Maybe you could/should look into other states who already do this.

I guess that you are in favor of the way Ohio schools are funded then. If money was collected and divided evenly by the state, I guess the state would be running the schools.

[Farmer Harold]

my opinion is no opinion.

[monte81]

Why does the coach have to be a teacher anyway? A stipend could be given to coaches and teachers are given the positions who really are great teachers. Most of the best teachers coach nothing and just love the kids---and some of the best coaches never set foot in a classroom except to learn!

Making it a duel job disqualifies great teachers and coaches from our program. Some of us are retired Army Sgt's who would love to coach for a stipend to be giving back to the program---even volunteer to coach for free!

What did Coach Stu teach before they made Strength coach a teaching position---NOTHING but was there all day during the season and worked other jobs.