Police acquitted!!!! SHAME

[monte81]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080425/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting

No way you shoot over 40+ times at individuals unarmed with no prior incident, argument, police stop, etc,... these types of incidents make people very hateful of police officers!!!!

The officers need to be in prison!!!

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

monte81,

I heard about this. I feel bad for the Bell family. There will be some heck to pay for this. And I know which major players are going to be involved now......

[savage4president]

[url]
The officers need to be in prison!!!


Obviously the judge feels differently.

[TigerCoach]

Monte,

You can't say exactly what happened that night by reading the reports of it. When your in that situation and your life is on the line, you react with no time to think about it. I feel bad for both the victims and the policemen involved.

[bs.gunn]

We pay our police officers to be in that situation and react intelligently in that situation.

Now I don't know and wasn't there but shooting 3 unarmed men 40 times is quite alot of bullets. Especially since not one of them fired back. There is definitely something wrong with this entire picture.

I'm reserving judgement for now.

I will say that officers do have a difficult job and don't get paid enough. I feel bad seeing them put into rough situations. However that is no excuse for overreacting to an incident especially with deadly force.

[TigerCoach]

Probably a good reason I couldn't be a policeman. If I saw some of the a-holes doing things, my gun would be smoking!

[Kamd50]

We pay our police officers to be in that situation and react intelligently in that situation.

Now I don't know and wasn't there but shooting 3 unarmed men 40 times is quite alot of bullets. Especially since not one of them fired back. There is definitely something wrong with this entire picture.

I'm reserving judgement for now.

I will say that officers do have a difficult job and don't get paid enough. I feel bad seeing them put into rough situations. However that is no excuse for overreacting to an incident especially with deadly force.

I agree with what bs.gunn has posted for the most part. But to me, the excessive amount of shots fired by the police officers is inexcusable. Come on! Over 40 shots with no return fire?

[TigerCoach]

If you hear shots fired, how do you know where they're coming from when it's dark out? They could have mistaken other officers shots as coming from the victims. Like I said, you don't have time to analyze it.

Besides, with some of these semi-automatic weapons, you can squeeze off 10 shots in a matter of 2-3 seconds.

[bs.gunn]

If you hear shots fired, how do you know where they're coming from when it's dark out? They could have mistaken other officers shots as coming from the victims. Like I said, you don't have time to analyze it.

Besides, with some of these semi-automatic weapons, you can squeeze off 10 shots in a matter of 2-3 seconds.

Well you can see muzzle flashes, you can hear the sound of it firing, you can hear the impact of the bullets. (again I want to say I don't know the specifics)

There is training involved here. We're not talking about your average citizen shooting at burglars. We're talking about police officers. I'm not saying these guys are at fault, maybe they weren't trained properly, maybe alot of things.

I highly doubt this is the end of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the department doesn't get sued to high heaven. Rightfully, by all appearances. There was an obvious failure here on their part.

[pnthrfan]

Now I don't know and wasn't there but shooting 3 unarmed men 40 times is quite alot of bullets. Especially since not one of them fired back. There is definitely something wrong with this entire picture.

The police didn't know they were unarmed at the time.


Well you can see muzzle flashes, you can hear the sound of it firing, you can hear the impact of the bullets.

And police in a life or death situation, (which is what the police thought this was) are supposed to look for muzzle flashes and listen for the impact of the bullets?? Maybe in a slow motion scene of a movie, but not in reality. Police have a split second to decide what to do in certain situations. These policemen obviously thought their lives and others were in danger . I do have to say, that shooting off 40 shots seems excessive, but like TigerCoach said, you don't know what you would have done in that situation. Noone does.

[Indiana95]

The police didn't know they were unarmed at the time. .

Well, if that's the rationale you believe our cops should use, you are freekin crazy. So you are saying that we should accept that postion when the little old is shot 40 times after being pulled over for driving too slow because officer MORON wasn't sure if she was armed? Not only does this whole thing piss me off, these idiotic excuses are even worse!:furious:

[monte81]

Monte,

You can't say exactly what happened that night by reading the reports of it. When your in that situation and your life is on the line, you react with no time to think about it. I feel bad for both the victims and the policemen involved.

TC, being a black man I know all to well how police over react before knowing the facts, No way the police should be acquitted for shooting 51 shots with no return fire. I have fired plenty of guns, rifles, etc,... in a combat area or training and you know where the shots are coming from.

The problem is police CANNOT think a person has a gun--he has to know that person has a gun. The same as being in the military, I cannot shot an unarmed man just because he looks like the enemy.

Oh, I have been following this case since it happened and the police have been ducking the truth the whole time. First, they said the man was reaching for a gun, 2nd, he was telling his friend to get him the gun, and finally no guns were in the car!!!!! The police have 25 reasons to lie about what happened to not spend 25 years in prison----we have way too many corrupt cops in America.

[monte81]

Obviously the judge feels differently.


Judges, police, county prosecuters, etc,... makes mistakes all the time. You cannot justify shooting 3 men who never said or done anything to be arreseted or detained. Typical answer from you saying the shootings were justified.

Oh---- I guess I can say the same thing the next time you or anyone is crying about OJ playing golf living the good life!!!!!!!!

[pnthrfan]

So you are saying that we should accept that postion when the little old is shot 40 times after being pulled over for driving too slow because officer MORON wasn't sure if she was armed?

Oh yea...that's what i'm saying ...shoot the little old lady for driving too slow....:stars: Give me a break.


The police officer heard the one guy say " Yo go get my gun!" Would you not think that they were armed or had a gun in their car after hearing that?? After the men got into a car, the police officer told them to halt. Did they? No, they pulled away, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van The detective also said the one guy made a sudden move as if he were reaching for a gun. Don't forget, it was 4:00am, and these guys were drunk . If they had nothing to hide?? Why try to run? Why not talk to the police officer instead of ramming his car and trying to flee?? Mistakes were made, and not just by the police.

[monte81]

Oh yea...that's what i'm saying ...shoot the little old lady for driving too slow....:stars: Give me a break.


The police officer heard the one guy say " Yo go get my gun!" Would you not think that they were armed or had a gun in their car after hearing that?? After the men got into a car, the police officer told them to halt. Did they? No, they pulled away, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van The detective also said the one guy made a sudden move as if he were reaching for a gun. Don't forget, it was 4:00am, and these guys were drunk . If they had nothing to hide?? Why try to run? Why not talk to the police officer instead of ramming his car and trying to flee?? Mistakes were made, and not just by the police.


Death= mistake! The cops will say anything to save his job and stay out of prison!!! Come on pnthrfan you know the police should not have shot 51 times. One cop emptied 2 clips but its justified! "Yo go get my gun" is BS smoke screen for i killed a man for being at the strip club at 4am because no gun or any weapons were found on the victims. I would not say one word if 1, 2, or even 3 shots were fired but empty clips is not right!!! In the Army we have a saying of "one shot-one kill" so the officers were mayberry shooting 51 times and only killing one of them! New york and LA cops are trigger happy and have reputations of killing the innocent!

[pnthrfan]

Come on pnthrfan you know the police should not have shot 51 times. One cop emptied 2 clips but its justified!

I never said it was justified. I said it was excessive.

Also, I found this interesting.....I got this from the Fox News website. The two guys that were with Bell, "were
part of "a parade of convicted felons, crack dealers and men who were not strangers to weapons," said James Culleton.
Does that make a difference?? I mean, they are known felons, crack dealers and obviously known to carry weapons, so, would that cause you to think that maybe they did have a gun on them?? It certainly would me.

[savage4president]

Judges, police, county prosecuters, etc,... makes mistakes all the time. You cannot justify shooting 3 men who never said or done anything to be arreseted or detained. Typical answer from you saying the shootings were justified.

Oh---- I guess I can say the same thing the next time you or anyone is crying about OJ playing golf living the good life!!!!!!!!

Yes...you can, that murderer was aquitted by a jury of his peers is a court of law...end of story. I believe OJ to be guilty as hell, but I believe it is a sham that he can be found guilty in a Civil Court. The judge found reason for these officers to be let go. Quit trying to make something more out of it. Shi# happens...it is part of life. It is horrible that this young man is dead, but I was not there, you were not there, so neither one of us know for certain what actually happened. Walk a mile in a NYPD Officers shoes before you go preaching about unjustifiable homicide.

You stated that you cannot justify the shooting of three men who never said or done anything to be arrested. My only question is how do you know what was said or done by the victims? Were you at the nudie bar too that night?

[savage4president]

Well, if that's the rationale you believe our cops should use, you are freekin crazy. So you are saying that we should accept that postion when the little old is shot 40 times after being pulled over for driving too slow because officer MORON wasn't sure if she was armed? Not only does this whole thing piss me off, these idiotic excuses are even worse!:furious:

Your retarded logic is what pisses me off!

[Paul Brown]

If someone is driving at me or a fellow officer, I'll empty a clip at them too.

[Indiana95]

Your retarded logic is what pisses me off!

Oh really? Even retarded logic is more than what you lack my friend. Now, go get dressed. Your midnight shift at the Speedway starts soon..don't be late.:poke:

[Kamd50]

If an officer shoots somebody, and they are down, and how can they not be after 40+shots, why would they continue to fire? Especially after not seeing any weapons. I acknowledge a cop's job is a dangerous one, but that does not excuse acting inappropriately to the point of excessive use of a firearm, ultimately taking an innocent man's life.

Whatever it was that they say they "thought" these guys were, is no justification for killing one of them. And as some have pointed out on the side of the police officers asking "how do we know what was said?", the same thing can be asked of how do we know that these officers aren't flat out lying to save their asses for overreacting? We don't, but it sure as heck wouldn't be the first time we have heard of something like this, would it?

I typically side with the side of law enforcement, but this just smells of rotten eggs to me and the excuses are very flimsy ones that they give. But none of us will ever really know the whole truth other than the ones who were there.

[Indiana95]

If an officer shoots somebody, and they are down, and how can they not be after 40+shots, why would they continue to fire? Especially after not seeing any weapons. I acknowledge a cop's job is a dangerous one, but that does not excuse acting inappropriately to the point of excessive use of a firearm, ultimately taking an innocent man's life.

Whatever it was that they say they "thought" these guys were, is no justification for killing one of them. And as some have pointed out on the side of the police officers asking "how do we know what was said?", the same thing can be asked of how do we know that these officers aren't flat out lying to save their asses for overreacting? We don't, but it sure as heck wouldn't be the first time we have heard of something like this, would it?

I typically side with the side of law enforcement, but this just smells of rotten eggs to me and the excuses are very flimsy ones that they give. But none of us will ever really know the whole truth other than the ones who were there.

BRAVO. Now there's a logical post!

[lobbs]

i believe it was justifiable. i didnt read the article, but i do trust that the police officers did what they felt was needed.

[Indiana95]

i believe it was justifiable. i didnt read the article, but i do trust that the police officers did what they felt was needed.

So you know nothing about this situation, but believe it's justifiable because you trust the officers? You're gonna need a lot of guidance and luck when you enter the real world, with such a naive attitude...Maybe next semester you'll sign up for "Common Sense 101" or "Think for Yourself 102"...

[lobbs]

So you know nothing about this situation, but believe it's justifiable because you trust the officers? You're gonna need a lot of guidance and luck when you enter the real world, with such a naive attitude...Maybe next semester you'll sign up for "Common Sense 101" or "Think for Yourself 102"...

I read the article, i still believe the it was justified.

[DAWGH8R]

If you look at the film footage from the night it happened, and see that the guy ran into two cops, then this IS justified.

Bullets are cheaper than taxpayer money to house criminals !

Hopefully my comments won't be deleted, even though my opinion doesn't agree with some.

If you don't obey the law, you COULD end up dead. Don't they teach this in school anymore ?? And with more and more of these cases surfacing, people should REALLY start listening to the police !!

[lobbs]

If you look at the film footage from the night it happened, and see that the guy ran into two cops, then this IS justified.

Bullets are cheaper than taxpayer money to house criminals !

Hopefully my comments won't be deleted, even though my opinion doesn't agree with some.

If you don't obey the law, you COULD end up dead. Don't they teach this in school anymore ?? And with more and more of these cases surfacing, people should REALLY start listening to the police !!

amen

[CarlE]

Jay, you have a new ally in lobbs. Be afraid. Be VERY afraid!!! LOL.

[DAWGH8R]

Next time Lobbs is in Vegas, I'll take him to the range to shoot AK47's !! :rockin:

[CarlE]

Next time Lobbs is in Vegas, I'll take him to the range to shoot AK47's !! :rockin:

You mean to shoot HIM with an AK47, don't you??? Ha Ha.

[SuperBran]

i didnt read the article, but i do trust that the police officers did what they felt was needed.

so i guess you "trust" that the officers did the right thing with rodney king? i'll tell you what, come down here and i'll take you to over-the-rhine. you start screaming that you trust that king deserved what he got and i'll time you to see how fast you can get get down to the river.

[monte81]

Yes...you can, that murderer was aquitted by a jury of his peers is a court of law...end of story. I believe OJ to be guilty as hell, but I believe it is a sham that he can be found guilty in a Civil Court. The judge found reason for these officers to be let go. Quit trying to make something more out of it. Shi# happens...it is part of life. It is horrible that this young man is dead, but I was not there, you were not there, so neither one of us know for certain what actually happened. Walk a mile in a NYPD Officers shoes before you go preaching about unjustifiable homicide.

You stated that you cannot justify the shooting of three men who never said or done anything to be arrested. My only question is how do you know what was said or done by the victims? Were you at the nudie bar too that night?

"$hit hppens, it's a part of life" please give me a break! You are so wrapped up in BS that you rationally say its OK to shoot 51 shots at unarmed people because they might have something ro for previous run-ins with the law--THATS BS FOR REAL! No excuse ever can justify 51 shots at 3 unarmed men regardless of past convictions. The NY police are going to spin it to make it look good but the LORD knows those 3 police officers were wrong bro. You can apprehend a suspect without unloading clips trying to kill. Officers are trained to use as less force as possible not the other way around!

If those cops were ok in shooting the men and being acquitted then stop crying about OJ!!!

[monte81]

I never said it was justified. I said it was excessive.

Also, I found this interesting.....I got this from the Fox News website. The two guys that were with Bell, "were
part of "a parade of convicted felons, crack dealers and men who were not strangers to weapons," said James Culleton.
Does that make a difference?? I mean, they are known felons, crack dealers and obviously known to carry weapons, so, would that cause you to think that maybe they did have a gun on them?? It certainly would me.

You still should not be able to shot 51 shots at anyone. 1,2, 3 shots could of injured the men and been apprehended without any deaths. Deadly force was no called for but with our justice system the police can do whatever they want! Ever thought those police officers had personal issues for being so violent?

[savage4president]

"$hit hppens, it's a part of life" please give me a break! You are so wrapped up in BS that you rationally say its OK to shoot 51 shots at unarmed people because they might have something ro for previous run-ins with the law--THATS BS FOR REAL! No excuse ever can justify 51 shots at 3 unarmed men regardless of past convictions. The NY police are going to spin it to make it look good but the LORD knows those 3 police officers were wrong bro. You can apprehend a suspect without unloading clips trying to kill. Officers are trained to use as less force as possible not the other way around!

If those cops were ok in shooting the men and being acquitted then stop crying about OJ!!!

Monte, I never once stated anything about previous run-ins with the law. I simply said you were not there...I was not there...We have no idea what actually went down.

Would you feel better about the whole thing if only 2 bullets were shot...but with the same result? 1 bullet can easily kill someone...What makes 51 so special? What about 33? 25? 18? 12? 7? Where do you draw the line?

Please go back and re-read my OJ statement. I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote!

[lobbs]

so i guess you "trust" that the officers did the right thing with rodney king? i'll tell you what, come down here and i'll take you to over-the-rhine. you start screaming that you trust that king deserved what he got and i'll time you to see how fast you can get get down to the river.

first of all , king got exatcly what he got coming to him. the man was high as kite with a criminal record. you ever see a crack head take severl gun shots and not stop? i have. the man wouldnt comply with the officers, so they had to restrain him the only way they could. and he kept getting back up. people dont know that before the home video started king tried running over the police with his car, "oh but no, we dont want to show that part, he want to make the police look like there beating up a poor black man"
And then what happens after the police are aquited? californa breaks into riots in which 1 billion in damage and 53 deaths; 2,383 injuries, looting stores and such! anyone see the video where 4 black men pulled an innocent white truck driver out of his truck and nearly bash his brains in with a several kicks and a chunk of cement? why werent these men brought into a big court case? the trucker was only attacked because he was white whcih is, yes, a form a racism! "oh but wait, there cant be racism when the victim is white." think about it, 53 deaths! over 2,300 injured all for 1 PCP'd out crack head criminal!

and i didnt even understand what you were talking about the river.

[monte81]

Monte, I never once stated anything about previous run-ins with the law. I simply said you were not there...I was not there...We have no idea what actually went down.

Would you feel better about the whole thing if only 2 bullets were shot...but with the same result? 1 bullet can easily kill someone...What makes 51 so special? What about 33? 25? 18? 12? 7? Where do you draw the line?

Please go back and re-read my OJ statement. I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote!

EXCESSIVE FORCE was used and was not right and not needed regardless!!!! pnthfan stated that the 2 surviving men had previous run-ins with the law which in makes it justified in his opinion. The 51 shots was overuse of authority and power. 1 shot can kill but 51 shots suggests that the officers intended to kill.

I know I was not there and the officers account of what was said may or may not be true as well. Some people will say or do anything when lives and futures are on the line!

[EXECRATED]

Here is a concept for ya......get your a$$ home to your families at a decent hour instead of sleazing around some "upstanding" joint at all hours of the nite....

May not keep these cops from making alleged "bad" decisions......but it would have kept these dudes from getting their a$$es shot.......

[pnthrfan]

pnthfan stated that the 2 surviving men had previous run-ins with the law which in makes it justified in his opinion.

First of all monte....I am a she, not a him, and secondly, I didn't say that previous run-ins with the law justified the 51 shots. I said , and I quote.." they are known felons, crack dealers and obviously known to carry weapons, so to me that would be the reason why someone may have thought they were carrying a gun on them, or had a gun in the car they were getting into.

monte, why don't you start reading what people actually write instead of letting your mind tell you otherwise.

[monte81]

First of all monte....I am a she, not a him, and secondly, I didn't say that previous run-ins with the law justified the 51 shots. I said , and I quote.." they are known felons, crack dealers and obviously known to carry weapons, so to me that would be the reason why someone may have thought they were carrying a gun on them, or had a gun in the car they were getting into.

monte, why don't you start reading what people actually write instead of letting your mind tell you otherwise.

I did read what you wrote---so prior trouble wiith the law warrants 51 shots before an investigation of the scene.. "Yo go get my gun" the officer stated the man said to his friend and the other officer "I thought one suspect was reaching for a weapon"!!! Neither are reasons to shot 51 times. The shooting was not justified by the victims actions at the time of the shooting!

Prior convictions and ALLEGED drug dealers comments are not reasons to shot someone 51 times with NO RETURN FIRE or aggression.

[pnthrfan]

I did read what you wrote---so prior trouble wiith the law warrants 51 shots before an investigation of the scene.. "Yo go get my gun" the officer stated the man said to his friend and the other officer "I thought one suspect was reaching for a weapon"!!! Neither are reasons to shot 51 times. The shooting was not justified by the victims actions at the time of the shooting!

Prior convictions and ALLEGED drug dealers comments are not reasons to shot someone 51 times with NO RETURN FIRE or aggression.

You know what monte.....If you can't comprehend what I have written then that is your problem not mine. You will twist and turn what other people say to boost your stance on issues , in doing so, you make yourself look ignorant, so by all means continue on.

[monte81]

The police didn't know they were unarmed at the time.



And police in a life or death situation, (which is what the police thought this was) are supposed to look for muzzle flashes and listen for the impact of the bullets?? Maybe in a slow motion scene of a movie, but not in reality. Police have a split second to decide what to do in certain situations. These policemen obviously thought their lives and others were in danger . I do have to say, that shooting off 40 shots seems excessive, but like TigerCoach said, you don't know what you would have done in that situation. Noone does.


You stated it was excessive but I say it could have been prevented by logical police work. Ignorant???? You just said noone knows what they would have done. The police thought their lives were in danger?
HOW? No return fire, no aggresion, etc,... just what they SPECUALTED in the incident. I feel that NO SHOTS should of been fired without just cause in the case. If the victims win the civil suit then we have conflicting accounts and judgements.
Police now can shot 1st and ask questions later? Your stance seems to be ignorant!

As i asked you in an earlier post---prior run-ins with the law gives a person no legit reasons for wanting police to make rational and educated decisions? Like I said one or 2 shots to injure but 51 shots and a acquittal is mind blowing! So every ex-con should just be shot on the spot for things the officers thought or think they may be doing or done---FUNNY!

[SternRulz]

I'm with Monte. 51 shots is ridiculous. More focus needs to be on the one cop, Michael Oliver, who shot 30+ times himself. Why did he shoot so many times compared to the others? I think one officer only fired 2 shots?

At some point, after oh...I don't know...20 or so shots, you should probably figure out you're not getting shot back at <sarcasm intended>.

Another thing...51 shots and only 1 of the 3 is dead??? Either that shows that were pretty much just shooting a bit wildly or maybe it's time for a little refresher at the old shooting range.

[lobbs]

Here is a concept for ya......get your a$$ home to your families at a decent hour instead of sleazing around some "upstanding" joint at all hours of the nite....

May not keep these cops from making alleged "bad" decisions......but it would have kept these dudes from getting their a$$es shot.......
awesome

[SternRulz]

Here is a concept for ya......get your a$$ home to your families at a decent hour instead of sleazing around some "upstanding" joint at all hours of the nite....

May not keep these cops from making alleged "bad" decisions......but it would have kept these dudes from getting their a$$es shot.......

Yes...Bachelor party participants deserve to be shot and killed. There's the answer we've been looking for.

:wtf:

[DragonTigerNemesis]

Yes...Bachelor party participants deserve to be shot and killed. There's the answer we've been looking for.

:wtf:

No, no, no, just the ones that are Black, hanging out in funkytown and too drunk to make good decisions when confronted by the police.

:wink:

[pnthrfan]

I don't know what else to say.....I guess I am in the minority here in thinking that the officer had every right to fire on these guys. I feel that if the men wouldn't have gotten in the car bumped into the police officer, and rammed an unmarked police van ( all of this AFTER the officer told them to stop) , maybe none of this would have happened. I don't care what you say, the background of these guys....... convicted felons, crack dealers and men who were not strangers to weapons, could have played a part in why the officer thought the guys might have had a gun. It is unfortunate that the officer fired so many shots, and unfortunate that a man lost his life.

[dataintsmiff]

Fact #1- Drugs equal guns, always have and always will.

Fact #2- a motor vehicle is a deadly weapon and if someone is trying to run an officer over with one should be countered with deadly force.

Fact #3- I believe I read somewhere that two of the three officers involved in the shooting were black, so I guess the theory that it was race related is over!

Fact #4- I have been involved in armed confrontations and have been unlucky enough to take a life. My shooting I did not know for a week how many times I had fired my weapon.When involved in things like this, your mind is in such shock that you only remember bits and pieces of it. I still don't remember the whole thing, and it happened almost six years ago!

Fact#5- A Deputy in South Florida was shot and killed recently and the suspect was cornered in the woods and had a "stand off" with Deputies of the Department's SWAT Team. The SWAT Team shot and killed him, they shot over 100 times at the guy. In a news conference afterwards a reporter asked the Sheriff why his Tactical Team had shot so many times. The Sheriff's response was, "because that's all the bullets we had".

Fact #6- Don't judge the facts of this case when you weren't there and don't know what happened. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. Don't believe that all Police Officers are corrupt, that simply is not true. This is a hard enough job and gets even harder when judged by people who don't take all evidence into account. Just as I hear people say everyday, you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But more often than not Police Officers are judged to be wrong on a daily basis before any investigation goes into the matter. Try this, when I go to a call, I listen to both sides of the story and gather evidence and then form an educated opinion. Some people may not like the outcome, but hey, name me one person who has ever been arrested and liked it! Some people, after being arrested and the prosecuted, come back and thank us and apologize for putting us in the position that action had to be taken in the first place. Judge not lest ye be judged!

Fact#7- And to end it all I say one thing, ALL THREE WERE ACQUITTED! Whether you like it or not, it is what it is!

[Mass6]

Yes...Bachelor party participants deserve to be shot and killed. There's the answer we've been looking for.

:wtf:

And participants at a bachelor party should be trying to run over (anybody) arresting officers??? dataintsmiff's reply says it all!!! Great Post

[mike_da_man13]

i agree with panther fan.... and lobbs the rhine is an area of cincy where black people still think they are being repressed by the system i think its the area where the race riots took place in 2001 right before 9/11...

[fyrewood]

To add to dataintsmiff's response (hope you don't mind):

There is a well known medical response to highly stressful situations called the "fight or flight" response...

In a highly stressful situation such as what these officers were involved in and what dataintsmiff himself was involved in, your body dumps a huge amount of adrenaline and cortisol into your system. This sudden adrenaline dump causes many things to happen. Your Heart rate and breathing increase. Also your vision narrows. You get "tunnel vision" and lose your peripheral vision. It causes you to intensly focus on the danger around you and nothing else. Another is your hearing shuts down. You don't hear shots going off around you, thus making it hard to realize how many shots you may or may not have fired. Also you lose your fine motor skills, but retain your gross motor function.....squeezing a trigger is a gross motor function. There have been records of officers and civilians alike involved in shoot outs who have been witnessed still pulling the trigger repeatedly on an empty gun well after the dangerous situation has ended and these persons did not realize that they were doing it. Makes it somewhat easy to fire multiple. multiple rounds in a high stress situation.

Also for those thinking that 51 shots is excessive and that the officers should have been able to end the situation with only a few shots since they are "highly trained".....Shooting at paper targets and hitting what you are aiming at is easy, I can hit the bullseye all day long....It's not shooting back at me. Try shooting at a human being who may also be armed and may also be firing back at you....all while you are both moving, ducking, hiding etc. You don't have time to align your sites and take a careful, well aimed shot. About all you can do is fire, duck and run....Not so easy to hit your target then. You don't just fire a few shots and stop to see what's happening. You shoot, reload shoot again how ever many times you think you need to until the situation is over.....When you are in a fight or flight response, believe me 51 shots is not excessive. I'd be willing to bet that these officers, just like dataintsmiff himself stated, have or had no idea how many shots they fired. They didn't have time to count....you wouldn't either......like I said, you fire until the percieved threat is over. As someone else stated, two of the major players in this situation were black officers, so any racial connotations in my opinion are :bs:

[Indiana95]

Fact #1- Drugs equal guns, always have and always will.

Fact #2- a motor vehicle is a deadly weapon and if someone is trying to run an officer over with one should be countered with deadly force.

Fact #3- I believe I read somewhere that two of the three officers involved in the shooting were black, so I guess the theory that it was race related is over!

Fact #4- I have been involved in armed confrontations and have been unlucky enough to take a life. My shooting I did not know for a week how many times I had fired my weapon.When involved in things like this, your mind is in such shock that you only remember bits and pieces of it. I still don't remember the whole thing, and it happened almost six years ago!

Fact#5- A Deputy in South Florida was shot and killed recently and the suspect was cornered in the woods and had a "stand off" with Deputies of the Department's SWAT Team. The SWAT Team shot and killed him, they shot over 100 times at the guy. In a news conference afterwards a reporter asked the Sheriff why his Tactical Team had shot so many times. The Sheriff's response was, "because that's all the bullets we had".

Fact #6- Don't judge the facts of this case when you weren't there and don't know what happened. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. Don't believe that all Police Officers are corrupt, that simply is not true. This is a hard enough job and gets even harder when judged by people who don't take all evidence into account. Just as I hear people say everyday, you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But more often than not Police Officers are judged to be wrong on a daily basis before any investigation goes into the matter. Try this, when I go to a call, I listen to both sides of the story and gather evidence and then form an educated opinion. Some people may not like the outcome, but hey, name me one person who has ever been arrested and liked it! Some people, after being arrested and the prosecuted, come back and thank us and apologize for putting us in the position that action had to be taken in the first place. Judge not lest ye be judged!

Fact#7- And to end it all I say one thing, ALL THREE WERE ACQUITTED! Whether you like it or not, it is what it is!

Rebuttals to the so called facts above:

Fact #1 - Drugs pre-date the existence of guns, so the two have not always equalled one another.

Fact #2 - A motor vehicle is NOT a deadly weapon. Of course it can be used as one, just like anything including baseball bats

Fact #3 - I read back through the posts and nowhere has this issue ever been characterized as race related until your post...Why go there?

Fact #4 - You state your specific experience. I have many friends in law enforcement (at all levels of government including the FBI). It is not a fact that all officers experience this.

Fact #5 - The case you refer to in SoFl involves the suspect firing back at the officers, so how is this comparable?

Fact #6 - Like you said, we were not there, so how are you able to form a position? However, I do agree that 99.9% of our officers are not corrupted. A small percentage can make headlines as history has proved.

Fact #7 - It isn't what it is, as this issue is not over. A civil court will rule differently....bet me! And, our judicial system, like law enforcement, is imperfect. Mistakes should not be accepted, they should be admitted and corrected.

[fyrewood]

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have become involved and you don't think they'll be trying to turn it into a racial issue?

[austinsm11]

I've never been in a situation like this. Neither have most of us. Who of us is to say that 51 shots is excessive? If someone is driving a car at me and I hear mention of them having a gun, I probably will be shooting until I am 100% certain they can't hurt me.

[Indiana95]

To add to dataintsmiff's response (hope you don't mind):

There is a well known medical response to highly stressful situations called the "fight or flight" response...

Fight or flight, a Biological response, is as fryewood describes an acute stress related response. This could certainly have contributed to the situation. However, I offer the following:

1. Law Enforcement officers find themselves in "fight or flight" situations everyday, especially in high crime areas. Should Walter Cannon's theory be used as the only reason for unusual force?

2. Fight or flight isn't limited to the officers only. Remember, the early reports in this case indicated that the suspects in question did not realize that they were beign pursued by law enforcement, as the van being used in the initial pursuit was undercover. Why would they not react in a similar way, choosing to fight or flight when in fear for their lives?

Let's look at this thing objectively. It really does become quite clear.....

[DAWGH8R]

I'm with Monte. 51 shots is ridiculous. .

Maybe they ran out of ammo !! Apparently, they needed at least 2 more shots.

[DAWGH8R]

Me & Woody coulda finished that job in 10 shots or less !!:2thumbsup:

[lobbs]

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have become involved and you don't think they'll be trying to turn it into a racial issue?

thats all they know how to do! if you argue with them, they label you a racist, which is in fact RACISM!

[SternRulz]

I don't know what else to say.....I guess I am in the minority here in thinking that the officer had every right to fire on these guys. I feel that if the men wouldn't have gotten in the car bumped into the police officer, and rammed an unmarked police van ( all of this AFTER the officer told them to stop) , maybe none of this would have happened. I don't care what you say, the background of these guys....... convicted felons, crack dealers and men who were not strangers to weapons, could have played a part in why the officer thought the guys might have had a gun. It is unfortunate that the officer fired so many shots, and unfortunate that a man lost his life.

I totally agree 100%...they had every right to fire. Just not 50+ times with no return fire. That's just insane.

[SternRulz]

And participants at a bachelor party should be trying to run over (anybody) arresting officers??? dataintsmiff's reply says it all!!! Great Post

Did I say that? Uhhhh ...no.

:thumbsup:

People can say all they want, but if that was their son, daughter, husband, friend, they'd be b*tching up a storm.

Just to be clear, the officers had every right to fire, however it doesn't take 51 shots to figure out you're not taking fire back. If they WERE taking fire, I wouldn't care if they shot 300 or 500 times.

Why did one officer alone shoot over 30 times himself?

[SternRulz]

I've never been in a situation like this. Neither have most of us. Who of us is to say that 51 shots is excessive? If someone is driving a car at me and I hear mention of them having a gun, I probably will be shooting until I am 100% certain they can't hurt me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the car going like 5 MPH? I seem to recall it inching along? Maybe not...

[SternRulz]

Maybe they ran out of ammo !! Apparently, they needed at least 2 more shots.

I expect comments like that from you.

:puke:

[Mass6]

Did I say that? Uhhhh ...no.

:thumbsup:

People can say all they want, but if that was their son, daughter, husband, friend, they'd be b*tching up a storm.

Just to be clear, the officers had every right to fire, however it doesn't take 51 shots to figure out you're not taking fire back. If they WERE taking fire, I wouldn't care if they shot 300 or 500 times.

Why did one officer alone shoot over 30 times himself?

While I agree with the end of your post, at the beginning you said "Yes...Bachelor party participants deserve to be shot and killed." Well, if they wouldn't have used their vehicle as a weapon, they probably wouldn't have been shot at. So to say they don't deserve to be shot and killed I agree, but had they not used their vehicle as a weapon, they wouldn't have.

[SternRulz]

While I agree with the end of your post, at the beginning you said "Yes...Bachelor party participants deserve to be shot and killed." Well, if they wouldn't have used their vehicle as a weapon, they probably wouldn't have been shot at. So to say they don't deserve to be shot and killed I agree, but had they not used their vehicle as a weapon, they wouldn't have.

Agree. If they would have obeyed the officers commands, the situation would not exist. Certainly not condoning their actions.

[Mass6]

Agree. If they would have obeyed the officers commands, the situation would not exist. Certainly not condoning their actions.

Nor do I condone the actions taken, just the fact that all could have been avoided.

Note: 4/29/08, SternRulz and Mass6 agreed on something. Watch for hell to freeze over tomorrow (just kidding around, I enjoy going back and forth with you!!):laughing:

[dataintsmiff]

Rebuttals to the so called facts above:

Fact #1 - Drugs pre-date the existence of guns, so the two have not always equalled one another.

Fact #2 - A motor vehicle is NOT a deadly weapon. Of course it can be used as one, just like anything including baseball bats

Fact #3 - I read back through the posts and nowhere has this issue ever been characterized as race related until your post...Why go there?

Fact #4 - You state your specific experience. I have many friends in law enforcement (at all levels of government including the FBI). It is not a fact that all officers experience this.

Fact #5 - The case you refer to in SoFl involves the suspect firing back at the officers, so how is this comparable?

Fact #6 - Like you said, we were not there, so how are you able to form a position? However, I do agree that 99.9% of our officers are not corrupted. A small percentage can make headlines as history has proved.

Fact #7 - It isn't what it is, as this issue is not over. A civil court will rule differently....bet me! And, our judicial system, like law enforcement, is imperfect. Mistakes should not be accepted, they should be admitted and corrected.

Vehicles are considered deadly weapons when used against someone in that fashion. If someone was attempting to run me over with a car while I was on duty it would be justified to use deadly force. If someone was trying to hit me with a baseball bat, again, deadly force would be an option. I'm not saying that's what would happen but that is an option I would have. Too often people like you want to sit on your behinds and criticize the police for their actions. I say to you, next time you're in town, come and see me. Sign a waiver and I'll be glad to tote you around town so that you can see some of the crap we put up with on a daily basis. I guarantee it will open your eyes to the real world! And for your information, the criminal part of this is over, so get over it!

[Indiana95]

Vehicles are considered deadly weapons when used against someone in that fashion. If someone was attempting to run me over with a car while I was on duty it would be justified to use deadly force. If someone was trying to hit me with a baseball bat, again, deadly force would be an option. I'm not saying that's what would happen but that is an option I would have. Too often people like you want to sit on your behinds and criticize the police for their actions. I say to you, next time you're in town, come and see me. Sign a waiver and I'll be glad to tote you around town so that you can see some of the crap we put up with on a daily basis. I guarantee it will open your eyes to the real world! And for your information, the criminal part of this is over, so get over it!

I'll pass on the ride along in small town massillon. I've been on many ride alongs in large urban areas, so I'm sure there is nothing you can show me in Massillon that would "open my eyes". I've also been on marine unit ride alongs, encountering Cuban refugee landings in So Florida. Believe me, as experienced as you may be, I'm sure I could share some things with you that you have yet to encounter.

As I mentioned earlier I have close friends in law enforcement at all levels of government, and I could shock most with the stories I have heard. I am also a big supporter (monetary) to two local unions (FOP and PBA), so don't misinterpret my posts as not being supportive of police in general. Like most objective people, I can sort through BS and come to logical conclusions. My take on the NY issue remains the same.....excessive force! And, most of my police friends happen to agree.

[dataintsmiff]

I'll pass on the ride along in small town massillon. I've been on many ride alongs in large urban areas, so I'm sure there is nothing you can show me in Massillon that would "open my eyes". I've also been on marine unit ride alongs, encountering Cuban refugee landings in So Florida. Believe me, as experienced as you may be, I'm sure I could share some things with you that you have yet to encounter.

As I mentioned earlier I have close friends in law enforcement at all levels of government, and I could shock most with the stories I have heard. I am also a big supporter (monetary) to two local unions (FOP and PBA), so don't misinterpret my posts as not being supportive of police in general. Like most objective people, I can sort through BS and come to logical conclusions. My take on the NY issue remains the same.....excessive force! And, most of my police friends happen to agree.

Thank you for supporting the FOP. I really do appreciate that. I would love to hear your stories and share some with you as well. And us poor old hill folk in Massillon do have alot going on here in the City, you just don't hear about it, because, like you said, we're not a so called "major" city. Believe me, we definitely have our problems. But all in all, this is a great place to live. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. I however gather all the facts before I pass judgment. Thanks for your support!

[DAWGH8R]

Agree. If they would have obeyed the officers commands, the situation would not exist. Certainly not condoning their actions.


After they " don't obey the officer's commands", they deserve WHATEVER they get.

There is no respect for law enforcement these days.

[dataintsmiff]

After they " don't obey the officer's commands", they deserve WHATEVER they get.

There is no respect for law enforcement these days.

:drinkem:THANK YOU!

[SternRulz]

After they " don't obey the officer's commands", they deserve WHATEVER they get.

There is no respect for law enforcement these days.

Yes. Death was certainly the appropriate punishment.

:wall:

[lobbs]

Yes. Death was certainly the appropriate punishment.

:wall:

death is the only punishment for something like that

[DAWGH8R]

Yes. Death was certainly the appropriate punishment.

:wall:
If they didn't want to die, they only had to follow law enforcement orders ! Stop whining for criminals !!

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-2/crybaby.jpg

[SternRulz]

If they didn't want to die, they only had to follow law enforcement orders ! Stop whining for criminals !!

http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-2/crybaby.jpg

Riiiiiiight. That's exactly what I'm doing.

:doh:

[DAWGH8R]

Death is sometimes a by product of not obeying the law. I have no sympathy for those that could have avoided death , by following law enforcement directives.

[fyrewood]

Riiiiiiight. That's exactly what I'm doing.

:doh:

It seems you are either whining for criminals or hating on all Law Enforcement for the actions of a few bad ones......Which is it?

[SternRulz]

It seems you are either whining for criminals or hating on all Law Enforcement for the actions of a few bad ones......Which is it?

Please point out where I'm hating on all law enforcement? Certainly not the case at all.

I'm simply stating that the punishment did not fit the crime. The man deserved some jail time, sure...certainly not death.

Heck, I can even understand if they shot 5 times and he was killed. Then I'd say it was a "by-product" of not obeying the law...but I cannot see shooting 50+ times at unarmed men, with 30 or more of those shots coming from the same officer.

[Indiana95]

Please point out where I'm hating on all law enforcement? Certainly not the case at all.

I'm simply stating that the punishment did not fit the crime. The man deserved some jail time, sure...certainly not death.

Heck, I can even understand if they shot 5 times and he was killed. Then I'd say it was a "by-product" of not obeying the law...but I cannot see shooting 50+ times at unarmed men, with 30 or more of those shots coming from the same officer.

SternRulz,

I'd stop while you are ahead. They are missing the point. Fact is, bad judgement was used in this situation and someone died. No it was not a crime, but avoidable, yes! Most PD and FD brothers stick up for each other, whether they were right or wrong in a situation where judgement was involved. In some cases they stick up for each other when a crime was committed, but that's another story. This is how it is.

I know it's early, but my guess is there was an error in judgement on the part of the driver in today's fire department wreck that killed 2 people. Crime, no, error judgement, maybe. After all the FD truck hit the van, not the other way around. Should be another topic of much debate in the same manner as this thread....Stay tuned.

[SternRulz]

SternRulz,

I'd stop while you are ahead. They are missing the point. Fact is, bad judgement was used in this situation and someone died. No it was not a crime, but avoidable, yes! Most PD and FD brothers stick up for each other, whether they were right or wrong in a situation where judgement was involved. In some cases they stick up for each other when a crime was committed, but that's another story. This is how it is.

I know it's early, but my guess is there was an error in judgement on the part of the driver in today's fire department wreck that killed 2 people. Crime, no, error judgement, maybe. After all the FD truck hit the van, not the other way around. Should be another topic of much debate in the same manner as this thread....Stay tuned.


Yes, some are missing the point. I just didn't want to not respond and let it seem like I do not appreciate law enforcement. I never said that, nor do I even remotely think that.

Regarding the fire truck accident, sounds like the van probably pulled into the path of the 2nd firetruck after the first one passed.

[dataintsmiff]

SternRulz,

I'd stop while you are ahead. They are missing the point. Fact is, bad judgement was used in this situation and someone died. No it was not a crime, but avoidable, yes! Most PD and FD brothers stick up for each other, whether they were right or wrong in a situation where judgement was involved. In some cases they stick up for each other when a crime was committed, but that's another story. This is how it is.

I know it's early, but my guess is there was an error in judgement on the part of the driver in today's fire department wreck that killed 2 people. Crime, no, error judgement, maybe. After all the FD truck hit the van, not the other way around. Should be another topic of much debate in the same manner as this thread....Stay tuned.

Ok, put down the chips and twinkies, you've been watching way too many movies involving conspiracy theories!

[Indiana95]

Ok, put down the chips and twinkies, you've been watching way too many movies involving conspiracy theories!

Chips, yes. Twinkies, heck no!