Middle School football program

[PainlessPaulus]

Jones, LA and Longfellow are gone.... The feeder system must be reinvented..

I think that can be done with the Middle School, St. Barbara and St. Mary... But we need a plan of action...

[monte81]

The same system installed at the HS level should be at the middle school and somewhat at the midget level. You have to build from the bottom up with quality coaches who are dedicated to changing lives on and off the field!

[savage4president]

If I were in charge at Massillon, I would take a short drive on Route 30 and meet up with the individuals in charge of the Little Leapords over at Louisville. They do not have a School sponsored team from 5th through 8th grade. Rather what they have is there own league with the 5th and 6th graders having four seperate teams all from Louisville and four 7th and 8th grade teams all from Louisville. I thought it was goofy at first...but the more I thought about it the more positives there are in a system like this. Example...when kids enter 9th grade you have a tremendous amount of competition for each spot because there are...

4 starters returning at QB
4 starters returning at RB and 4 FB
20 starters returning at O-line (By far the most important)
16 Starters returning at W.R. (Spread System)
8 Starting Corners
4 Starting Safties
8-16 Starting L.B's (Depending of Defensive Scheme)
12-20 Starting D-Line (Depending on Scheme)

This system seems to be a great feeder for Louisville, and continues to keep kids interested in Football because they are all getting time on the field. I think this is something that Tigertown should take a close look at. Keep the kids interested at a young age...and they will stick with the program throughout H.S.

[CarlE]

If I were in charge at Massillon, I would take a short drive on Route 30 and meet up with the individuals in charge of the Little Leapords over at Louisville. They do not have a School sponsored team from 5th through 8th grade. Rather what they have is there own league with the 5th and 6th graders having four seperate teams all from Louisville and four 7th and 8th grade teams all from Louisville. I thought it was goofy at first...but the more I thought about it the more positives there are in a system like this. Example...when kids enter 9th grade you have a tremendous amount of competition for each spot because there are...

4 starters returning at QB
4 starters returning at RB and 4 FB
20 starters returning at O-line (By far the most important)
16 Starters returning at W.R. (Spread System)
8 Starting Corners
4 Starting Safties
8-16 Starting L.B's (Depending of Defensive Scheme)
12-20 Starting D-Line (Depending on Scheme)

This system seems to be a great feeder for Louisville, and continues to keep kids interested in Football because they are all getting time on the field. I think this is something that Tigertown should take a close look at. Keep the kids interested at a young age...and they will stick with the program throughout H.S.

This is much like AAU and Dizzy Dean in baseball. These are GREAT competitive programs and it sounds like Louisville just took a page out of the book and localized it to football.

[savage4president]

It is also a way to bring those students attending parochial schools into the Massillon Tradition before entering Washington High in 9th grade.

CarlE...I'm not 100% sure, but I think Louisville has been doing this for a LONG time. The current guy in charge is Nubby McKimm.

On an added note...This also allows the Varsity staff to hold camps and clinics for the Jr. High football players without violating any OHSAA rules(7 contact day rules) because they are not part of the OHSAA. I know for a fact their OC holds a QB clinic in the winter and about 40 kids show up.

[Zimm87]

I have been a youth football coach for over ten years at the Anderson Youth Football league in Cincinnati. We have kids that will go to Turpin and Anderson. It is understood that the coaches will run a similar offense to the High Schools. Not the exact offense, but we won't run a power I when the HS is running the spread.

We start them with the double wing, because it is a solid base that kids can learn the misdirection plays and groom QBs in running an offense. As they move up we add more and more to the offense eventually running a modified spread or the pistol.

I have seen coaches run complicated offense and then yell at the kids when they fail to execute...too many times the coaches want to run an offense to show people how smart they are. Run the double wing, its boring, but you'll win more than you'll lose and you'll make some great football players.

We also don't "win at all costs" at the youth level, it is more about developing players than anything else. We have a 8 play - Must play rule, we play by that rule, but many of our competitors do not. We don't win many city championships, (I've only got 1) but we had both high schools in the regional div 2 final last year as well as the eventual state champs.

Good coaches that coach the basics - thats what will get you to the top of the mountain.

[PainlessPaulus]

Mmmmm. Great posts.... Does the Massillon Boys and Girls club sponsor football teams?


doug

[The Voice]

The Catholic program and the Massillon program have some differences in philosphies.. I will not go into this here and now, I'll just say that they are different.. The Catholic schools are 'nurtured' by Lowell Klinefelter; (which IMO is a very good thing)

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[Red50Go]

The Catholic program and the Massillon program have some differences in philosphies.. I will not go into this here and now, I'll just say that they are different.. The Catholic schools are 'nurtured' by Lowell Klinefelter; (which IMO is a very good thing)

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CCC recruits Barb & Mary, not to mention public school families, and public & private schools in other communities as well (alot from Jackson). I got no beef w/ that. Free choice and CCC deserves to work in their interests.

Why cant we do the same? I mean w/ Barbs & Mary, right in the heart of our city. I like Klinefelter & CCC but if that gives him heartburn, tough.

[monte81]

The Catholic program and the Massillon program have some differences in philosphies.. I will not go into this here and now, I'll just say that they are different.. The Catholic schools are 'nurtured' by Lowell Klinefelter; (which IMO is a very good thing)

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My point in my original post!!! A HC at the varsity level has to want to oversee the lower level programs to build his team from the bottom up. When Coach Currance was here we ran EVERYTHING the varsity ran at every level--- it made us a better cohesive team EVERY year.

[TigerCoach]

I think that if Massillon were to start modeling their program after Louisville, we might as well throw away the tradition and pride of the Massillon Tiger Football program and join the Federal League so we can be average like everyone else.

No offense, Savage, but it's two different environments. When outside people (i.e. parents & meddlers) get involved, it creates much more stress and problems. The head coach should be the person driving the structure of the entire program. I have lots of thoughts on this subject, but no time for a lesson today.

[savage4president]

CCC recruits Barb & Mary, not to mention public school families, and public & private schools in other communities as well (alot from Jackson). I got no beef w/ that. Free choice and CCC deserves to work in their interests.

Why cant we do the same? I mean w/ Barbs & Mary, right in the heart of our city. I like Klinefelter & CCC but if that gives him heartburn, tough.

Because it is a violation of OHSAA rules...which is why a program similar to what I posted does not fall under the OHSAA bylaws and thus the Massillon H.S. Coaches can become much more involved in the Private school of Massillon.

TigerCoach... I never said copy what Louisville does...but what they do has worked quite well for them, and keeps maximum participation of students which is the key to become victorious year in and year out. The original poster seemed dismayed with the Consolodation into one Jr. High program...All I was doing is giving an alternative view of how to solve the situation. How it would ruin the tradition of Massillon football...I don't understand. I would think it would help it thrive and grow because now you have so many more kids playing for Massillon not St. Mary's, St. Barbs, or Massillon Middle School...they are all Future TIGERS.

[reofan82]

The whole point is the Massillon Head Coach should be involved in the middle school and youth programs. The coach can certainly require middle school coaches to implement his system and monitor them to make sure it gets done. As for the youth teams, they are not sponsored by the school system, but I have a hard time believing that their coaches would not love to feel involved in the tiger program in general and feel respected by the Head Coach. I am sure they would be open to running similar schemes and philosiphies if the Head Coach makes them feel involved and holds clinics, watches games,etc. It is all about effort and the desire to do it.

[giajay54]

Recent Massillon coaches have not held their position for too long. A new coach comes in and a new system is implemented. I like the Cin. post about teaching a basic offense that is similar but not exactly the same. Teach the fundementals of football with a basic off and def. Because if you go all out and try to teach them the current high school system they will become frustrated and more challenge when a new coach comes in. The middle schools should closely resemble the HS system, but youth should just be a very basic system for all positions on the field that is supported by a balanced off and def that can branch into any offense or defensive scheme. It's just the Massillon way: new coach comes in and 3 to 4 years later a new name for the head coaching position is being tossed around. Massillon is a stepping stone to bigger and better programs and paychecks.
What is most important is teaching work ethic principles that drive home the point that hard work will pay off in the end. You get what you put in type deal. Work ethic principles are developed before kids enter high school and to do this we need great motivators and teachers in the lower levels. Winning always helps too. If the high school is drama free and winning, more than likely you will get more effort and boys coming out to play ball than you would if you are losing with drama (this past year).

[LLRose]

Recent Massillon coaches have not held their position for too long. A new coach comes in and a new system is implemented. I like the Cin. post about teaching a basic offense that is similar but not exactly the same. Teach the fundementals of football with a basic off and def. Because if you go all out and try to teach them the current high school system they will become frustrated and more challenge when a new coach comes in. The middle schools should closely resemble the HS system, but youth should just be a very basic system for all positions on the field that is supported by a balanced off and def that can branch into any offense or defensive scheme. It's just the Massillon way: new coach comes in and 3 to 4 years later a new name for the head coaching position is being tossed around. Massillon is a stepping stone to bigger and better programs and paychecks.
What is most important is teaching work ethic principles that drive home the point that hard work will pay off in the end. You get what you put in type deal. Work ethic principles are developed before kids enter high school and to do this we need great motivators and teachers in the lower levels. Winning always helps too. If the high school is drama free and winning, more than likely you will get more effort and boys coming out to play ball than you would if you are losing with drama (this past year).


This post hits the mark.

I'm baffled by the hyper focus on youth football. The alignment needs to be focused on middle school programs. Youth programs need to focus on blocking and tackling, the system is irrelevant. Developing skills and enthusiasm is important but hyper focus on the system can be harmful.

The focus made about Hall and building the Youth programs has had no proven end point.

Hall has never coached at a school long enough to realize any benefit from a strong aligned middle school program let alone a youth program.

Don't get me wrong, I will support Hall as the new coach of the Tigers, there are some things that make me go hummmmmmmm.

2 things
1. Consistent job hopping (this could be considered a positive by some, he did what he needed to do to move up in levels to land a job at the level of Massillon)
2. Lack of successful high level state playoff experience
3. Over emphasis on building the Youth programs

[TigerCoach]

I've said for years that kids shouldn't play tackle football until 7th grade. That's how it used to be with LA, Longfellow & Jones. When kids play full contact football at too young of an age, they....

1) Get hurt because they aren't physically developed.
2) They get poor coaching and lose the motivation to play when they get older.
3) They just get tired of playing.

[LLRose]

I've said for years that kids shouldn't play tackle football until 7th grade. That's how it used to be with LA, Longfellow & Jones. When kids play full contact football at too young of an age, they....

1) Get hurt because they aren't physically developed.
2) They get poor coaching and lose the motivation to play when they get older.
3) They just get tired of playing.

100% agree.

[Zimm87]

I've said for years that kids shouldn't play tackle football until 7th grade. That's how it used to be with LA, Longfellow & Jones. When kids play full contact football at too young of an age, they....

1) Get hurt because they aren't physically developed.
2) They get poor coaching and lose the motivation to play when they get older.
3) They just get tired of playing.

Couldn't disagree more. Youth football has a lot more positives than negatives. Kids get playing time and the skills that they learn become second nature and they can react instead of think at the next level. In ten years of coaching I have had one broken bone. Thats it, other than bumps and bruises.

I have seen more kids come into the program and leave much better than if they've never played, and lets face it, many kids who play youth football just won't be able to play at the high school level.

What happens is some youth coaches feel they have to win, and then the kids tire of the coach. I have seen teams implode because the coach thinks he is the next Bill Walsh.

It hardly ever the kids, it is usually the parents with unreal expectations or coaches who don't know how to coach.

[LLRose]

Couldn't disagree more. Youth football has a lot more positives than negatives. Kids get playing time and the skills that they learn become second nature and they can react instead of think at the next level. In ten years of coaching I have had one broken bone. Thats it, other than bumps and bruises.

I have seen more kids come into the program and leave much better than if they've never played, and lets face it, many kids who play youth football just won't be able to play at the high school level.

What happens is some youth coaches feel they have to win, and then the kids tire of the coach. I have seen teams implode because the coach thinks he is the next Bill Walsh.

It hardly ever the kids, it is usually the parents with unreal expectations or coaches who don't know how to coach.

Why did you post that you couldn't disagree more with TigerCoach's original post?

He made 3 points and you totally agreed with one of them.

I have a much different prospective, I have two daughters that participate in youth cheerleading. I'm friends with the coaches on the team I don't coach but I am involved during games. The level of coaching in youth football is poor and disturbing at the same time.

I especially can't tolerate the coach that thinks consistently repeating "YOU GOT TO HIT SOMEONE" over and over again will motivate a 5th grader. Individual instruction and positive motivation is needed, not loud mouthed coaches that make fools out of themselves.

[austinsm11]

The same system installed at the HS level should be at the middle school and somewhat at the midget level. You have to build from the bottom up with quality coaches who are dedicated to changing lives on and off the field!

I posted this on another thread, but what if the high school coach is changing the system from year-to-year or every few years(like he should) based on the abilities of that year's players?

I guess I am just wondering if the middle school team in a particular year is more suited to a power running game while the high school is throwing the ball a million times a game, what should be happening at the middle school?

[monte81]

I posted this on another thread, but what if the high school coach is changing the system from year-to-year or every few years(like he should) based on the abilities of that year's players?

I guess I am just wondering if the middle school team in a particular year is more suited to a power running game while the high school is throwing the ball a million times a game, what should be happening at the middle school?

Tweek is a better word than change. You always have to coach to your strengths as far as player skills at any level. Playcalling, formations, player positions, etc,... but base structure in the program shoud always be the same for consistantly. You can develop a playbook with several varieties and scemes. Even the Spread offense and all other schemes has a power running formation and plays. Look at UM against Florida on offense--they came in 5 variety of offenses the 1st series and threw Florida off on defense the whole game! I coach 8th graders in C-bus and I have 4/5 differant offenses depending on the skill sets I have on the team each year. I am no offensive guru so the past 2 years I have had to learn alot of offensive things that I was not used to being a defensive coach prior to being the HC. I took things from OSU, West V, and UM to develop plays because I had access to the playbooks---even had some old Lee Owens Massillon 80's plays and a 3 back Coach Currance play sets(great for counters and traps). All i did was scale back some complex blocking and the way i say the play---I talk in terms they can handle--fade or go instead of slugo you know what I mean.

I hope to have a entire Massillon staff this year with myself, Jason Relford, Jason and Mark Stafford, and possibly Cory Ball.

[Zimm87]

Why did you post that you couldn't disagree more with TigerCoach's original post?

He made 3 points and you totally agreed with one of them.

I have a much different prospective, I have two daughters that participate in youth cheerleading. I'm friends with the coaches on the team I don't coach but I am involved during games. The level of coaching in youth football is poor and disturbing at the same time.

I especially can't tolerate the coach that thinks consistently repeating "YOU GOT TO HIT SOMEONE" over and over again will motivate a 5th grader. Individual instruction and positive motivation is needed, not loud mouthed coaches that make fools out of themselves.

I agreed that it is the coaches responsibility to make the team work and make it a great experience for the kids. It it an mindset that the entire organization or school has to take. Its never about wins, its about developing players and letting kids fall in love with the game of football.

The bottom line is this, I would NEVER agree to just do away with a level of football just because of the adults running it. There are plenty of alternatives to turn to. But to just say get rid of youth football because the coaches and that kids get hurt (it is football) and motivation (again coach and mindset of the team and organization) is rather short minded. If you have coached at that level and seen the progress and the growth (personal and football) of the kids you would think differently.

I think Paul Brown said this: They don't care what you know unless they know that you care.

[TigerCoach]

My official position is that kids younger than 7th grade should play flag football and develop skills of running, passing & catching while getting used to a team environment and coaching. The physical skills & fundamentals of blocking, tackling and toughness should come at a later stage. In my model, that would be in middle school.

Zimm87, how many of your kids that you've coached over the past 10 years have gone on to play high school football? Or maybe a better question, how many have quit when they got to high school? Kids realize within a few years wether they will be considered a "good football player" or just another kid on the team. When they play this silly youth tackle football (which in my mind is for fathers who are living through their sons), they get burned out, hurt, poor coaching, etc.......

[Purple Hayes]

I've said for years that kids shouldn't play tackle football until 7th grade. That's how it used to be with LA, Longfellow & Jones. When kids play full contact football at too young of an age, they....

1) Get hurt because they aren't physically developed.
2) They get poor coaching and lose the motivation to play when they get older.
3) They just get tired of playing.

You know, TigerCoach, my father never let me play until 7th grade despite all my urgings for those exact reasons stated above. He played collegiately at the Division I Level, so it's not like he was an over-protective parent or someone who did not have knowledge.

I never understood his reasoning until I became a parent and got the opportunity to witness some youth football games. I wound up being a 2-year starter at the Varsity Level, despite some of my peers getting a head start so to speak.

[reofan82]

I officiated youth, tackle football for several years in many communities in Stark County. It wasn't the lack of football knowledge of the coaches I viewed as the problem, it was the attitude of the coaches. Most coaches thought they were apparently being scouted by the NFL for a future job and would argue, strut around, and generally make a testesterone filled ass out of themselves. The kids seemed to matter very little to some of these guys and winning was WAY to important. Of course, the problem is these guys volunteer and it is difficult to get people to volunteer for anything today. Some leagues had to put in rules to suspend the COACHES for poor sportsmanship, verbally abusing officials, purposely subverting league rules,etc. Youth sports can bring out the worst in some adults, and that may be a big reason some players get turned off to the sport itself.

[The Voice]

TC.. you have some good points.. I do feel the biggest issue with youth sports are the coaches.There needs to be some kind of review/testing system for those who want to coach.

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[Zimm87]

My official position is that kids younger than 7th grade should play flag football and develop skills of running, passing & catching while getting used to a team environment and coaching. The physical skills & fundamentals of blocking, tackling and toughness should come at a later stage. In my model, that would be in middle school.

Zimm87, how many of your kids that you've coached over the past 10 years have gone on to play high school football? Or maybe a better question, how many have quit when they got to high school? Kids realize within a few years wether they will be considered a "good football player" or just another kid on the team. When they play this silly youth tackle football (which in my mind is for fathers who are living through their sons), they get burned out, hurt, poor coaching, etc.......

I have more than a few that are playing in HS. I have a group of kids who will get state championship rings this fall.

I'm not saying they won a state championship because of the youth program, but this last year all three captains from Turpin Anderson, and McNick, all came from our program, and the starting QB's from Turpin and Anderson also were from the AYFL.

I also have had a number of kids that do not play in HS. Either it was not the ability to compete, or size or they just didn't want to play. I have also had kids on the team that had beaten cancer and just wanted to play on a team and make friends. That is NOT a silly game.

Also for the record, I have never had a son on a team and I dedicate a lot of time because I genuinely care about my players and I love the game of football, I am from Massillon.

I know there are a lot of examples of bad parents and coaches behavior. But the positives far outweigh the negatives.

If you want to know the positives, find a program and coach. If you don't want your kid to play till 7th grade, it's your choice. But I know that I'll be out on the field this August enjoying every moment.

[CATS44]

I am all for youth football, but only IF it is done correctly. That means real football coaches, not just dads.

If done correctly, I dont see how youth football can be over emphasized.

I coached in a youth league in which every head coach had played at the college level. By league rule, defenses and offenses were limited to very basic formations. Fundamentals were stressed. It was a one size fits all program. It didnt matter what was being run at the varsity level, because what they were teaching at the youth level fit anything the kids would see when they got to middle school. If the kids can block, tackle, throw, run, and catch...they will fit into any system. The numbering system was the only thing brought down from the varsity level.

So far, I like everything that Hall has said about youth and middle school football, and what he intends to do.

For years Ive wanted us to install somebody as a kind of program coordinator, or fundamentals coordinator...an overseer who makes sure that every level is on the same page. Hall sounds as if he intends to do just that. He also sounds like he wants real coaching at the youth level.

I also hope that Hall installs a system for developing QBs from youth up. Offensively, the name of offensive football has changed from tailbacks to QBs, and we have to have a system that provides us with at least two QBs at every grade level from seventh up. Our HS QBs should be throwing over a volleyball net in the gym just about every day. We used to do that, and when we did, we always...always...had a QB who could throw the ball accurately in the games.

We also have to separate todays results from tomorrows realities. The big kid who is playing fullback in eight grade is going to be playing on the line in HS, so put him there. The tall gangly seventh grader with the big arm might not win you as many games as the runt QB with quick feet...but we will be better served by developing the kid who will be big enough to play QB at the varsity level.

[Indiana95]

My official position is that kids younger than 7th grade should play flag football and develop skills of running, passing & catching while getting used to a team environment and coaching. The physical skills & fundamentals of blocking, tackling and toughness should come at a later stage. In my model, that would be in middle school.

Zimm87, how many of your kids that you've coached over the past 10 years have gone on to play high school football? Or maybe a better question, how many have quit when they got to high school? Kids realize within a few years wether they will be considered a "good football player" or just another kid on the team. When they play this silly youth tackle football (which in my mind is for fathers who are living through their sons), they get burned out, hurt, poor coaching, etc.......

I agree 100%! The focus before 7th grade should be skill development and fun! Unfortunately too many parents and youth coaches live vicariously through children, so don't count on a change anytime soon. In fact, look for it to become more intense in the upcoming years.

[Indiana95]

I officiated youth, tackle football for several years in many communities in Stark County. It wasn't the lack of football knowledge of the coaches I viewed as the problem, it was the attitude of the coaches. Most coaches thought they were apparently being scouted by the NFL for a future job and would argue, strut around, and generally make a testesterone filled ass out of themselves. The kids seemed to matter very little to some of these guys and winning was WAY to important. Of course, the problem is these guys volunteer and it is difficult to get people to volunteer for anything today. Some leagues had to put in rules to suspend the COACHES for poor sportsmanship, verbally abusing officials, purposely subverting league rules,etc. Youth sports can bring out the worst in some adults, and that may be a big reason some players get turned off to the sport itself.

As with TigerCoach, I'm in 100% agreement again! I call it the Bobby Knight syndrome. It's really sad if you think about it. I'm embarassed for these knuckleheads who pace on the sidelines, arms folded, and barking at the kids and refs. Many of these guys think they are supposed to act this way. It's very sad and some of you reading this, know who you are....LOL

[Indiana95]

TC.. you have some good points.. I do feel the biggest issue with youth sports are the coaches.There needs to be some kind of review/testing system for those who want to coach.

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There is a very good system....not sure if Massillon youth sports is still using it to train these guys...

[The Voice]

There is no training.

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[CATS44]

In Ft Wayne, Indiana, youth baseball is called the Knot Hole League.

All the coaches are college kids with baseball backgrounds who are paid a nominal salary....and those kids are supervised and under scrutiny by officials with baseball backgrounds.

Dont ask me who pays them, I dont know. It might be the City Rec program or maybe the league itself.

Im not sure that paying coaches is a reasonable answer....but if we could provide a small stipend to qualified adult coaches, who then had three unpaid assistants under them...and we had someone connected to the football program overseeing the coaching, and keeping the parents out of the decision making...we might have something.

We certainly have enough people around town that have played football.

Personally, Id rather spend money on player developement than on peripherals (like fireworks and multiple sets of unis) and long distance travel.

And if somehow we could incorporate minimum academic standards for the youth programs, we would be able to get the kids' (and parents') academic attention very early in the game.

Now somebody will come up with reasons why such a program could never be put in place. But in the final analysis, the youth football program belongs to us..whether it is administered by the Boys Club or any private org.

To quote RFK:

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not.

It seems that we all have been asking a lot of whys lately. Maybe we should be asking why not.

[monte81]

Youth football is all about skill development, teamwork, and learning the game. If a youth coach is worried about wns and losses then he should not be in charge of any youth program.

Our youth program is strict on coaches, player, and parents conduct. Coaches face suspnsions for bad sportmanship and misconduct as well as league fines. Each player must turn in a academic/conduct report every week or the player cannot participate. Most of our league coaches are counselors, policeman, teachers, etc,... it is a good league. However, in any youth program you are going to have caoches, players, and parents who still will test the bouderies of the system. Also, each coach mst be certified in Ohio which eliminates some of the bad coaches.

Tell the kids to have fun!!

As far as not having contact football before 7th grade--- I never suited up full gear until Longfellow but Travis played midget league. We both played DI while Travis did have more injuries long term playing football but he was also an All-American in HS and went to OSU. I went to UC---I guess the 2 years made him alot better than I!!!:scratchchin:
I let my boys play if they choose!!

[savage4president]

My official position is that kids younger than 7th grade should play flag football .......

I must respectfully disagree with you on this. There are more serious injuries (Head) in flag football, than in full contact youth football. Those little guys run around full speed, and accidentally crack heads with another player. I have and will continue to not allow my little ones to play Flag Football.

[mmauthor]

I was shocked to see the Massillon kids playing flag football without helmets. Makes no sense. I played flag as a kid and we had to wear helmets. We've taken a major step backwards since the 60s!

[PainlessPaulus]

It would be nice for Massillon "team chemistry" to begin in the 7th grade... It all comes down to Great Team Chemistry...

Valdosta took our program and perfected it with one coach.... And I think even Massillon would keep a coach for 20 years if he won 15 State Championship....

doug

[RRanger]

I think that if Massillon were to start modeling their program after Louisville, we might as well throw away the tradition and pride of the Massillon Tiger Football program and join the Federal League so we can be average like everyone else.

No offense, Savage, but it's two different environments. When outside people (i.e. parents & meddlers) get involved, it creates much more stress and problems. The head coach should be the person driving the structure of the entire program. I have lots of thoughts on this subject, but no time for a lesson today.

just like some of the people on here,let the coach, COACH, GO TIGER'S

[Red50Go]

I cant believe anyone thinks we should eliminate midget league. I played 5th & 6th grades for Moose and it was great. And it helped alot. We were much further along for 7th grade (Longefellow) than we would otherwise. Heck, when everyone was talking about Hall and developing our feeder system, I thought we were talking about pee-wee 3rd & 4th grade. The earlier the better! It is better to grow up w/ it. And it is less intimidating to start earlier than jump into tackle football in middle school. We played tackle football at playgrounds & neighborhood fields as early as I can remember playing ANY sport. C'mon people this is MASSILLON! Develop some toughness for crying out loud.

[TigerCoach]

I cant believe anyone thinks we should eliminate midget league. I played 5th & 6th grades for Moose and it was great. And it helped alot. We were much further along for 7th grade (Longefellow) than we would otherwise. Heck, when everyone was talking about Hall and developing our feeder system, I thought we were talking about pee-wee 3rd & 4th grade. The earlier the better! It is better to grow up w/ it. And it is less intimidating to start earlier than jump into tackle football in middle school. We played tackle football at playgrounds & neighborhood fields as early as I can remember playing ANY sport. C'mon people this is MASSILLON! Develop some toughness for crying out loud.

I'm not suggesting we eliminate the midget football program, I just think it should be more of a flag football program. I also played tackle football in the neighborhood as a kid growing up, but that contact is nothing compared to when you have equipment on. Kids get hurt by being cautious, at all levels, and when they don't have the confidence to give/take a hit, they get hurt physically and mentally. That's what causes kids to quit or maybe not play to their potential even if they keep playing.

People may argue that kids don't quit when they get to high school, but probably more kids don't reach their potential because they don't try to excel or have bad experiences. They remember the days of playing midget football when they weighed 80 pounds and were lugging around another 10 pounds of equipment. They end up just "getting through" practice and playing because it would disapoint their mom & dad. (Heck, this is Massillon, I'm supposed to play football.) Even if they're on the team, they tend to be average players. (Let's call them Federal League players, lol)

If kids don't start full contact football until 7th grade, they are more physically developed and take better to coaching (assuming we have competent coaching). They learn the proper way to give/take a hit, and they are more confident. They understand why you do certian things and why you don't do certain things. By the time they get to high school, they are better suited for the more intricate parts of the game and have the confidence to execute. The game of football isn't just based on talent. 80% of it is mental toughness and confidence. I can tell you from my experiences that my toughest opponent was myself. I had this voice in my head telling me I couldn't do this and take the easy way out. I wasn't going to let that voice beat me!

For those of you who know me, this is probably a surprise, but I feel that full contact football at a young age is detrimental.:gotigers:

[Tiger54]

CCC recruits Barb & Mary, not to mention public school families, and public & private schools in other communities as well (alot from Jackson). I got no beef w/ that. Free choice and CCC deserves to work in their interests.

Why cant we do the same? I mean w/ Barbs & Mary, right in the heart of our city. I like Klinefelter & CCC but if that gives him heartburn, tough.
Isn't that how we got the wonderful Steve Schott? He attended St. Mary's.

[Red50Go]

Isn't that how we got the wonderful Steve Schott? He attended St. Mary's.

Precisely! I dont know the law that says St. Mary's cant be a feeder school for WHS just as it is for CCC. Just like Whittier, Smith, Franklin etc kids (or Jackson/Perry public) who end up at CCC.

[Red50Go]

For those of you who know me, this is probably a surprise, but I feel that full contact football at a young age is detrimental.:gotigers:

You must feel strongly to come on here and say that because I, like many others, will call that another sympton of the "sissification" of America. I think kids are getting spoiled rotten.

Hey, worked for the Spartans, lol.

[TigerCoach]

You must feel strongly to come on here and say that because I, like many others, will call that another sympton of the "sissification" of America. I think kids are getting spoiled rotten.

Hey, worked for the Spartans, lol.

You calling me a sissy? LOL, that's the way you & I were brought up, no contact until 7th grade. I don't think it worked out too bad.

[giajay54]

I played in a Canton City league when I was younger. I remember this kid that moved here from Utah where he played in a flag football league. He never tackled in his life. The first day of full contact he was carted off with a neck injury because of his poor tackling form. He never played again.

[mmauthor]

I think it's good to have both flag and tackle available. I've heard people say that flag develops elusiveness in running backs. It also keeps some kids from getting turned off from football at a young age.

[Red50Go]

I guess we have a philosophical difference. I dont think the tough, big, or brave get turned off. Those that do probably should get turned off.

Next will be baseball w/ tennis balls and no gloves. This is why you dont see sliding boards and monkey bars on schoolyards anymore. You probably cant even play tag anymore, let alone battle ball.

I support whatever Hall sincerly decides is best - aside from any soccer mom or political BS. Me, I'd get ahold of them young - talking to boys clubs, 3rd & 4th graders, and definitely tackle football in midget league (5th & 6th).

[CATS44]

Tiger Coach pointed out that some kids fall by the wayside because of bad experiences.

IMO we shouldnt throw out the baby with the bathwater. Instead of jettisoning the program, get rid of the bad experiences.

You can teach football correctly at the youth level, if you think of yourself as a teacher, and not a coach.

So if we install football teachers at the lowest levels, instead of ego-centric coaches, we can eliminate the bad experiences.

It can be done.

[Smitty]

... Instead of jettisoning the program, get rid of the bad experiences. You can teach football correctly at the youth level, if you think of yourself as a teacher, and not a coach....

I've seen too many young "football dads" stomping along the sidelines AT PRACTICE doing wonderful imitations of Woody Hayes on Michigan Saturday.

Those kids weren't learning a damn thing. ('cept from seeing a bad example....)

[hrmjenl]

"aside from any soccer mom"

???????

[Kenny M.]

I agree: no contact 'til at least 7th grade. Youngsters' bodies are just not developed enough and can sustain horrific injuries (like the poster mentioned above about the child sustaining a potentially fatal neck injury). I remember a young kid in our neighborhood taking a hit in one of these "youth" leagues and darn near broke the growth plate in his leg. Luckily, he didn't; but if he had, his right leg would not have grown anymore!

Also, you just aren't sure what type of coach you're getting with these "youth" football leaues.

I think it's best to let kids be kids by playing in the backyard and daydreaming about scoring that winning touchdown in a Massillon-McKinley game with 5 seconds left on the clock! Keep the adults out of it! The kids can certainly learn the fundamentals before 7th grade by attending the local camps, however, no contact 'til at least 7th grade! More harm than good, I say.

[mtownwr22]

Contact football should start at 6th grade imo. Get the 1 year of pads down. Learn the fundamentals and basics of tackling. And also get used to just being hit and running with pads on. Then the 2nd year guys will be thirsty come middle school football to get out and hit someone. Im not sure if they start at 4th grade now or whatever it is but by the time middle school comes theyre burnt out. they get tired of it. then by the time there high school years they dread another year of practicing with the pads. If you start at 7th grade its too late. Too quick and speedy game for a first year of hitting. You gotta learn the fundamentals which is the most important part of football no matter how old you are. The soon to be seniors now have been hitting since 4th grade and alot of them just dont have the motivation anymore. Alot of them want to play but theres that doubt bc you get burnt out. Thats the worst thing that can happen to any athlete in any sport. Dont start too early but you gotta get them on before its too late. Very contriversal topic.

[Kamd50]

I don't happen to agree with midget league being too early. Pretty much all of the kids that started off with mine back then are still at it and can't wait for another year. To my recollection, there were rarely any injuries to speak of until AFTER 7th grade started.

Also, if it is true about getting burned out because of starting too early, what about baseball then? Most kids start baseball at least two years before they start any kind of football. And just speaking from our own personal experience, and a good number of the kids that played in little league are now playing for the highschool.

I tend to agree with Redgo50. It mostly depends on the individual kids and if they were really 1. cut out for the sport in the first place and 2. really have the talen/skill/ desire for the sport. Some find that they are more suited for basketball, track, etc., as time goes on.

[mtownwr22]

See, its hard to explain. Baseball is different from football in that aspect. You will get burnt out in football sooner than baseball. Alot tougher and more time consuming, also less rest. Its just a hard topic to discuss. Of course kids are going to tell you there ready and cant wait for next season. you ask them about next year do you really think theyre going to say ohh i dont know im not really wanting to or im getting burnt out. But yes, theyll be pumped for it but when it comes down to it after playing for 8 or 9 years it does get tiring. In high school even middle school you got guys sayin Damn, another practice or I cant wait till this season is over. And guys can get on here bitchin and moanin about this and that but its the truth whether you agree or not. Its not a taking sides thing. Its just the flat out truth. But when you were younger 6th grade, 7th grade, and sometimes 8th grade. Kids loved to go out and practice and loved hitting someone day in and day out. It was new to them and fun. After so many years it tends to get a little old. But the main point im getting at is no need to start contact any earlier than 6th grade.

[Kamd50]

I'm not saying that some don't get burned out, but I think it is on an individual basis. I just talked to a couple of our starters from the 05 team the other day, who are not playing football right now and they were both saying how much they miss it more than baseball and one for sure will be getting back into it next year and maybe the other one will as well and both of them have been playing since they were little. So it just depends, imo.

[mtownwr22]

Id say your correct on a limit. But of course its almost like taking something for granted. Once its gone youll miss it. Those who played because of heart and passion of Massillon Tiger football, no matter how much they hated it during their time, always miss it once its gone. Just the way of life.

[Kamd50]

Id say your correct on a limit. But of course its almost like taking something for granted. Once its gone youll miss it. Those who played because of heart and passion of Massillon Tiger football, no matter how much they hated it during their time, always miss it once its gone. Just the way of life.

Trust me, these two guys Never hated it, lol!

[Red50Go]

[QUOTE=Kenny M.;102608I think it's best to let kids be kids by playing in the backyard and daydreaming about scoring that winning touchdown in a Massillon-McKinley game with 5 seconds left on the clock! Keep the adults out of it! The kids can certainly learn the fundamentals before 7th grade by attending the local camps, however, no contact 'til at least 7th grade! More harm than good, I say.[/QUOTE]

Lol. Yeah right. What era are you talking about, this one? They're home playing playstation. Its all organized now. Bball, bball, fball, soccer, everything. All adults aren't evil. I'm not. You prolly aren't. I think CATS44 made the best point.

We can talk about all the reasons we have not won a title in umpteen years or all the problems of society or we can try a different approach and get more involved w/ our youth, not less involved. Geez, yall just got a 1st hand look at what happens when the lower levels get neglected. But I am glad we so were fresh and interested. :doh:

[CarlE]

I like this Red50Go guy. He's got it together. Well, except for the fact that he agrees too much with TigerCoach!!! LOL.

[DAWGH8R]

I like this Red50Go guy. He's got it together. Well, except for the fact that he agrees too much with TigerCoach!!! LOL.

Me thinks that Red50go is from the same 'era' as TigerCoach. If you remember, Coach Currence brought the cadence " RED, 50, GO ".

So, he's probably a level-headed mid 40's guy with a good level head on his shoulders. Similar to TigerCoach, only TC has a HUGE head on his shoulders !!! :drinkem:

Is TigerCoach related to Barry Bonds ???

http://squirrelqueen.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/big-head-barry-bonds-clear.jpg

[Red50Go]

Ahh yes, you got me. Every once in awhile we'd change it to a double Go and invariably the whole defense jumped offside. You know how kids are.

Which reminds me of a story. I was in that inaugeral 5th & 6th midget league w/ Moose, Elks, Eagles, & McDonalds. (I loved it!). Wayne Galion was our coach. He was kinda loose cannon at times. One of the things he always stressed was setting the tone on the 1st play. In a few "big games" lol, he would instruct the entire defense to go all out on the word Red, and literally cream somebody. Basically still in their stance - totally cheap. We'd get a 5 yard off-sides, and only once a 15 yarder, but I gotta admit it "set the tone." And I hate to admit it was fun as hell too.

I know that doesn't help my argument w/ Kenny, Smitty & TC but I cant help it. :rockin:

[TigerCoach]

I'm not saying that some don't get burned out, but I think it is on an individual basis. I just talked to a couple of our starters from the 05 team the other day, who are not playing football right now and they were both saying how much they miss it more than baseball and one for sure will be getting back into it next year and maybe the other one will as well and both of them have been playing since they were little. So it just depends, imo.

I miss football also, but I miss "game day", not the practices, workouts and conditioning drills that get you to game day. Ask those guys if they miss the summer camps and workouts, or do they miss running on the field through the hoop so their girlfriends can watch them?

Football is a different universe than baseball. I played baseball (and basketball) from age 7-19 and wish I could still play today at 62. You don't have to be in top shape to play baseball and it's not as grueling on your body, mentally or physically.

And, yes, Dawgh8r, if I would have played baseball, I would be compared to Barry. Besides, it has been statistically documented that people with big heads make more money.:jestera:

[TigerCoach]

I know that doesn't help my argument w/ Kenny, Smitty & TC but I cant help it. :rockin:

I'm not arguing, it's just my opinion. It will only happen my way if I become the head coach of the Tigers, and that will never happen!

[Red50Go]

I'm not arguing, it's just my opinion. It will only happen my way if I become the head coach of the Tigers, and that will never happen!

Oh I know. I respect those opinions. I know Hall is going to implement a system from bottom to top and thats good enough for me to hear. Whatever or however he sees fit I am behind 100%.

[Kamd50]

I miss football also, but I miss "game day", not the practices, workouts and conditioning drills that get you to game day. Ask those guys if they miss the summer camps and workouts, or do they miss running on the field through the hoop so their girlfriends can watch them

hahaha, beat you to it. First thing I asked them myself was just that, so no,wiseguy. Don't forget we had some pretty darn "tough guys" on that 05 team, just like you used to be TC:poke:

You think you are 62 and living in California for crying out loud! No wonder you don't know what you are talking about! LOL, juuuust playing:wink:

[TigerCoach]

You think you are 62 and living in California for crying out loud! No wonder you don't know what you are talking about! LOL, juuuust playing:wink:

That's my other personality that lives there! Sometimes I wish I was Jay Leno. He has a nice house there, as well as many celebrities.

[Kamd50]

That's my other personality that lives there! Sometimes I wish I was Jay Leno. He has a nice house there, as well as many celebrities.

Sometimes I wish I had one of Jay's snazzy cars to go cruising around in on a beautiful day like today! Nothing wrong with a little daydreaming:smile:

[DAWGH8R]

Sometimes I wish I had one of Jay's snazzy cars to go cruising around in on a beautiful day like today! Nothing wrong with a little daydreaming:smile:


I personally like his 30th anniversary 'Elvis' signature Harley Davidson.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/images/photos/ElvisBike_04.jpg