A Question to Ponder

[TigerCoach]

After reading and hearing about the Congressional hearings with the top oil company execs, I was wondering this question......

How come a municipality can annex private property "for the good of the municipality" (or however you want to word it), but they cannot (or don't want to) annex private property for the building of a new oil & gas refinery? I would think that more refineries would be for the good of society also because it would decrease gas prices as supply goes up.

I've been saying it for years that we do not have a oil shortage, we have a refinery shortage. We haven't built a new oil refinery in the U.S. in 35 years.

[obiefan]

I think it's funny that the congress wants to take away the 9 cents per gallon "windfall" that the oil companies receive to the tune of billions.

What say we take away the "windfall" of 50 cents on the gallon that the govt "takes" for producing absolutely nothing? The money the govt takes outweighs the oil company by far.

[SuperBran]

After reading and hearing about the Congressional hearings with the top oil company execs, I was wondering this question......

How come a municipality can annex private property "for the good of the municipality" (or however you want to word it), but they cannot (or don't want to) annex private property for the building of a new oil & gas refinery? I would think that more refineries would be for the good of society also because it would decrease gas prices as supply goes up.

I've been saying it for years that we do not have a oil shortage, we have a refinery shortage. We haven't built a new oil refinery in the U.S. in 35 years.

the reason we haven't built a new refinery in so long has less to do with property and more to do with costs. the cost to keep existing refineries up to environmental codes is staggering. even if you gave an oil company the land, they're still not going to build one.

[TigerCoach]

Your right, but my bigger point is that if the government is so set on "doing what's right" for the people, why the heck aren't they pushing for more refineries? This BS about wanting to repeal tax breaks is making me puke. Like Obie said, why don't they repeal some of the federal and state taxes on gas?

[The Butler]

What say we take away the "windfall" of 50 cents on the gallon that the govt "takes" for producing absolutely nothing? The money the govt takes outweighs the oil company by far.

So you drive to work, and most of the goods you and your family consume get to the store on "absolutely nothing"?

[TigerCoach]

So you drive to work, and most of the goods you and your family consume get to the store on "absolutely nothing"?

What the heck are you trying to say, Butler? Please explain.

[WheatCity]

I think that this discussion about refineries is illustrative of an major disadvantage that we've created for ourselves. We cannot build anything with any measure of common sense or expediency.

The environmental impact study to build a refinery takes nearly a decade. The new exit off of 77 at Strausser (or is it Shuffel?) took 3-4 years longer because there is a little pond that geese swim in.

While I'm all for the responsible use of land - we are handcuffing ourselves with regulation and bureaucracy. We are limited in the amount of infrastructure that we can increase or improve. See Minnesota bridge collapse. See the lack of inter-metro light rails. See the lack of nuclear power plants. See lack of refineries.

Whoopdee freaking do, what does it all mean?

China does not have these same hang ups. While their pollution is atrocious, they just build. I think that within the next 25 years their infrastructure, and thus the ability to exploit resources and produce wealth, will exceed our capabilities. I loathe the idea that we may have sacrificed our position as THE world power to China. How unfair to our children.
Have you seen or read anything about the 3 Gorges Dam? It is a world wonder, a technological marvel, and I don't think that we could have built it.

Relative self-sufficiency is absolutely paramount to the maintainence of global hegemony. I love the idea of dictating to other countries. I love the fact that we've set up international organizations that are ill-equipped to oppose our will.

[The Butler]

What the heck are you trying to say, Butler? Please explain.

Gas taxes are used to build and maintain the roads that we drive on.

[Scooter]

Last year U S Supreme court ruled on the Kilo vs New Haven Ct. case on eminent domaine. The Gov. can take your property and sell it to anyone that can provide more revenue to the city or state.

Something to think about the next time someone wants to annex your property

Some state legislatures passed laws to protect property owners rights. I believe Ohio is still draging its feet on this one.

[TigerCoach]

Gas taxes are used to build and maintain the roads that we drive on.

That's true, but I still think that there is plenty of tax revenue that is not being spent in our best interests.

[lobbs]

Dont Question The System, Stay In Line!! Go U.s. Government!

[BigTime]

That's true, but I still think that there is plenty of tax revenue that is not being spent in our best interests.

Like promising to use county sales tax rider dollars to fund school capital improvement projects, and then trying to pull off an end-around by asking for an additional levy to build a new best in class high school?

Its coming to you and I soon TigerCoach! Get ready to PAY PAY PAY baby!

I know, seriously :offtopic:

[lobbs]

Like promising to use county sales tax rider dollars to fund school capital improvement projects, and then trying to pull off an end-around by asking for an additional levy to build a new best in class high school?

Its coming to you and I soon TigerCoach! Get ready to PAY PAY PAY baby!

I know, seriously :offtopic:

Dont Question The System, Stay In Line!! Go U.s. Government! :vbiker:

[EXECRATED]

the reason we haven't built a new refinery in so long has less to do with property and more to do with costs. the cost to keep existing refineries up to environmental codes is staggering. even if you gave an oil company the land, they're still not going to build one.

Really?......show my your data. I doubt that the term "turn around" is one you are even familiar with.....

[SuperBran]

Really?......show my your data.

do some research on your own.

if you think i'm lying, then why don't you tell everyone your theory.......and be sure to post your data.

so you think it's cheap to build a refinery and keep it up to code? LOL. i've had this conversation with the general counsel of a major oil company, and he explained all of the crazy costs involved..........but i guess he was lying.

I doubt that the term "turn around" is one you are even familiar with.....

don't be a fool.

seems like the term "turn around" to you means that if you face the other direction and don't see it then it obviously doesn't exist.

[EXECRATED]

Never accused you of lying SB. Simply wanted some facts to support your argument. And my apologies, but I still dont see any. Quoting some "general counsel" from some "major" oil company just doesn't sit in my book as sound evidence.

I dont deny that costs are a factor regarding the construction of new refineries. But please don't oversimplify the issue by just blaming lack of construction on "costs" alone. There is much more too it than simply costs....

In 2005, Congressman Joe Barton, the Republican chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, proposed a bill to increase refinery capacity (construction). However, many arguments were raised concerning this bill. The main one being the environment. For instance, in a letter to the House majority and minority leaders, nine state attorney generals said that the bill "would be a major setback for air quality across the nation." And this is only one example of many.

In response, Marc Meteyer, a spokesman for the American Petroleum Institute, said that "we have indicated over time that increasing refinery capacity....is necessary and something that has been hindered over time" by environmental regulations.

Yes, good old Uncle Sam getting in the way of Capitalism again......gotta love it.

So SB, talk to your "general counsel" about that issue. And come back and talk to me when you understand the principles of a catalytic cracking unit.

[SuperBran]

Never accused you of lying SB. Simply wanted some facts to support your argument. And my apologies, but I still dont see any. Quoting some "general counsel" from some "major" oil company just doesn't sit in my book as sound evidence.

I dont deny that costs are a factor regarding the construction of new refineries. But please don't oversimplify the issue by just blaming lack of construction on "costs" alone. There is much more too it than simply costs....

In 2005, Congressman Joe Barton, the Republican chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, proposed a bill to increase refinery capacity (construction). However, many arguments were raised concerning this bill. The main one being the environment. For instance, in a letter to the House majority and minority leaders, nine state attorney generals said that the bill "would be a major setback for air quality across the nation." And this is only one example of many.

In response, Marc Meteyer, a spokesman for the American Petroleum Institute, said that "we have indicated over time that increasing refinery capacity....is necessary and something that has been hindered over time" by environmental regulations.

Yes, good old Uncle Sam getting in the way of Capitalism again......gotta love it.

So SB, talk to your "general counsel" about that issue. And come back and talk to me when you understand the principles of a catalytic cracking unit.

perhaps you should read a little more carefully before you get into a debate.

i NEVER oversimplified the issue by "just blaming lack of construction on 'costs' alone." i simply stated that costs are a bigger factor than just having a place to build a new refinery. where did i say that these costs were the ONLY factor (or even the biggest factor)? i didn't. rather, i compared two of many factors. again, if you give these guys the land, they aren't going to just start building. it's not just due to costs alone. there are many issues that effect the construction of new refineries, especially environmental.

i think that it's you who is trying to put words in my mouth to fit your argument. in your last post alone you stated:

i spoke with my friend (who is general counsel) about the costs of keeping up with environmental regulations, among others. believe me, the costs are staggering. he would know.

you admitted that costs are a factor, so why do you need statistics to prove something you already admit as being true?

[savage4president]

[QUOTE=SuperBran;101997]

i spoke with my friend (who is general counsel) about the costs of keeping up with environmental regulations, among others. believe me, the costs are staggering. he would know.

QUOTE]



What the $42 Billion they made last quarter is not enough to cover said costs?

[SuperBran]

What the $42 Billion they made last quarter is not enough to cover said costs?

first - his company didn't make $42 billion last quarter.
second - just b/c they have the money doesn't mean they're quick to spend a big portion of it.

if an oil company doesn't want to build a refinery, they certainly have the right to choose not to. what they can do and what they should do are two separate things.

i'd love to have new refineries built, but there's too much holding the progress back.

[massillon catholic]

[QUOTE=SuperBran;101997]

i spoke with my friend (who is general counsel) about the costs of keeping up with environmental regulations, among others. believe me, the costs are staggering. he would know.

QUOTE]



What the $42 Billion they made last quarter is not enough to cover said costs?


Savage: Please learn how to properly "quote" take it from an expert. Quote unquote LMAO. Little inside joke between me and the savage.

[WheatCity]

Should the inflated price of crude falls back down to earth (it will someday, right?......right?) and the big oil companies find themselves in dire financial straits, will the fed's bail them out as they have with large financiers after the mortgage boom?

[savage4president]

first - his company didn't make $42 billion last quarter.
second - just b/c they have the money doesn't mean they're quick to spend a big portion of it.

if an oil company doesn't want to build a refinery, they certainly have the right to choose not to. what they can do and what they should do are two separate things.

i'd love to have new refineries built, but there's too much holding the progress back.

He must work for one of the "poorer" oil companies then. I can understand how only making profits of $11 billion in a quarter would make it more difficult to build a new refinery. LOL...just breaking balls.

[SuperBran]

He must work for one of the "poorer" oil companies then. I can understand how only making profits of $11 billion in a quarter would make it more difficult to build a new refinery. LOL...just breaking balls.

"poor oil company" is like saying "jumbo shrimp" LOL.

[werperry]

I think it's funny that the congress wants to take away the 9 cents per gallon "windfall" that the oil companies receive to the tune of billions.

What say we take away the "windfall" of 50 cents on the gallon that the govt "takes" for producing absolutely nothing? The money the govt takes outweighs the oil company by far.

+ 1

[werperry]

the reason we haven't built a new refinery in so long has less to do with property and more to do with costs. the cost to keep existing refineries up to environmental codes is staggering. even if you gave an oil company the land, they're still not going to build one.

...isn't that the very reason oil companies site? environmental?? costs & land...??

[werperry]

why doesnt' anyone complain about big MILK & big EGG. their pricing has been skyrocketing...

[Seeker]

why doesnt' anyone complain about big MILK & big EGG. their pricing has been skyrocketing...

Maybe because most people aren't spending $150 per family each week on milk and eggs.

And maybe because we aren't reading about record profits and windfalls that the farmers and dairies are making.

:smile:

[TigerCoach]

Milk & Egg prices are tied in with Congress' mandate to increase the amount of ethanol in gasoline. The main source of ethanol is corn & other grains. These same grains are used to feed the livestock & chickens that produce milk & eggs. Farmers are forced to buy more expensive feeds and pass that cost on to consumers.

Bottom line.....build another refinery so we can use our corn for feed.

[werperry]

you beat me to it tigercoach. the sky-rocketing price of eggs, milk...and beef prices are a result of the gov'ts interference with farms. it's all intertwined.

furthermore, when did it become a sin to make a profit? i am all for responsible capitalism, and am weary of the lying & dishonesty taking place in today's corporate world...but, the huge profits oil companies are making... are more of a result of the 'economies of scale, than greedy CEO's. They are also benefiting from the unbelievably touchy futures market & speculation... which keeps driving up the price of crude, for no apparent reason.

Oil drives DAMN NEAR EVERYTHING...that's why it is politically appealing to bash oil companies. lucky for the politicians that critical thinking in this country is GONE.