Mitchell Report

[proud to be]

Time to get off of Barry Bonds as the whipping boy of the steroid era.

MLB had better crucify the likes of Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte etc like they did Barry, or will they only hammer the new HR king because he holds the most hallowed record in baseball???

Here is a link to the report............. pages 145 - 230 tell about Clemens, (and others) YEARS of steroid abuse, and how he manipulated the Yankees staff to get his "guy" there.

Mo Vaughn, Chuck Knoblauch, Glenallen Hill, (the Gunslinger)


http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf


Pretty freaking disgusting!!

I feel cheated, all of our era's heroes are fakes...........

At least Chuck Norris is real!!!!!! Right Carl???

[SuperBran]

people will certainly "crucify" guys like pettite and clemens, but will probably have more hash word for bonds since he not only took roids, but lied (and lied under oath) about his use.

[fyrewood]

people will certainly "crucify" guys like pettite and clemens, but will probably have more hash word for bonds since he not only took roids, but lied (and lied under oath) about his use.

That and the fact that he's an ass*%le

[proud to be]

people will certainly "crucify" guys like pettite and clemens, but will probably have more hash word for bonds since he not only took roids, but lied (and lied under oath) about his use.

And that would be ridiculous........ Roger Clemens has been baseball's All-American boy for 20+ years. The role model every dad wants his kid to be like. Hell, he's even got 2 boys playing minor league ball. Do you think he told them to take steroids? Do you think if they asked him that he would have been truthful??? What's worse, Lying in court, or lying to your own kids, and teammates???

Barry Bonds has been surly, uncooperative with the media, and has been crucified in the press by them for it. Oh yeah, he also just happens to hold the most hallowed record in all of sports, and we saw what the media did to Roger Maris when he broke the record. What a crock of :bs:

Who's the bigger liar here???? Clemens is a total hypocrite, and you say Bonds will be treated more harshly because he lied in court????

Do you honestly believe the Rocket would have told the truth in court, if he can't even be truthful with his own family???? Did you READ the report??? He manipulated the Yankees to hire the guy who injected his A$$ because he couldn't do it himself!!!! They hired this guy away from Toronto so he could illegally stick a needle in the Rocket's precious bum!!!! I say if you are going to vilify Bonds, you better put the Rocket and the rest of the cheaters in the same box. As far as I'm concerned, Rocket should be STRIPPED of all of his Cy Young awards.

To me, it makes it even more impressive that Bonds was able to be so impressive against an entire era of steroid using pitchers!!!!!!

[proud to be]

That and the fact that he's an ass*%le

So it's OK if nice guys take steroids??? That in and of itself makes them, as you say, ass*%les..................... doesn't it???

[SuperBran]

And that would be ridiculous........ Roger Clemens has been baseball's All-American boy for 20+ years.

yeah, and bonds has been arrogant, selfish, racist, etc. during the same time. it's easier to despise bonds.

Do you think he told them to take steroids? Do you think if they asked him that he would have been truthful???

neither you nor i know the answer, so why speculate? i'm guessing though that he probably didn't encourage them to take drugs.

so if you assume that clemens lied to his kids, i guess you believe that bonds lied to his kid as well?

What's worse, Lying in court, or lying to your own kids, and teammates???

how do you know he lied to his kids? more speculation.

bonds has a kid as well. he's lied to everyone so what makes you think he hasn't lied to her?

so let's see.....assuming the worst, which situation is worse:

(A) lying to your kids, lying to the court and lying to your teammates, or
(B) lying to your kids and lying to your teammates

if you picked (A) you've then it's bonds.

Who's the bigger liar here???? Clemens is a total hypocrite, and you say Bonds will be treated more harshly because he lied in court????

right now BONDS is the biggest liar. if clemens is a total hypocrite, what doest that make bonds??? not only did bonds publically lie about everything, he lied to the COURT. that's a big no no.

so how is clemens a hypocrite and bonds isn't? i'd LOVE to hear you explain that.

Do you honestly believe the Rocket would have told the truth in court, if he can't even be truthful with his own family

AGAIN you speculate on nothing you know. assuming clemens did lie to his family, who's to say that he would automatically do it under oath and subject himself to perjury. again, more speculation. we'll never know what clemens would have done. we DO know what bonds did.

I say if you are going to vilify Bonds, you better put the Rocket and the rest of the cheaters in the same box

and who's saying that clemens won't or shouldn't be vilified? my guess is that he will.

As far as I'm concerned, Rocket should be STRIPPED of all of his Cy Young awards.

just as bonds should be stripped of all his records.

[QUOTE=proud to be;88686]To me, it makes it even more impressive that Bonds was able to be so impressive against an entire era of steroid using pitchers!!!!!!

entire era? now you're stretching it.

[SuperBran]

So it's OK if nice guys take steroids??? That in and of itself makes them, as you say, ass*%les..................... doesn't it???

i think what fyrewood is getting as is that it's easier to have more hate for bonds b/c of the fact that he's just not a likeable guy.

[DAWGH8R]

Screw B*arry B*nds !! he's an egotistical @$$H*LE that ALWAYS thought he was above the system.

His punishment isn't for roids, it's for LYING to the court system.

[TigerDL71]

You can read all 409 pages of the report on major league baseball's website. At the very end of the report there are a whole bunch of copies of checks and money orders and mailing slips with names of players.


Indians player Paul Byrd is mentioned in the report but all of the information is the same information that came out during the ALCS. Also, former Indians Juan Gonzalez,Jason Grimsley,Tim Laker, and David Justice were all named in the report.

[SuperBran]

this truly is a sad day for baseball. the report is shocking to say the least.

[fyrewood]

i think what fyrewood is getting as is that it's easier to have more hate for bonds b/c of the fact that he's just not a likeable guy.


Bingo! Give this man a cigar...

[crackerman]

Professional Baseball Players take steroids and GH
Professional Basketball players smoke lots of weed
Professional football players take steroids, pills, and GH
Professional Body Builders take steroids and GH
Olympic track athletes take steroids and GH
Tour de France winners blood dope
Professional Actors use coke
Professional Hockey players have coke and pill problems

Im starting to think the only real sports are darts, bowling and roller derby.


Come on people...are you really suprised by this? Funny how people want to shame Bonds for his use of illegal drugs but yet Brett Favre is still loved and trested like a God even though he used as well. I dont care if one lied and one told the truth...they both did it.

And people...Bonds broke the record...dont take it from him. You are right Aaron and the Babe didnt take steroids. But then again...neither did the pitchers they faced. Bonds had to do itagainst jacked up pitchers throwing 10 plus mph faster.

Its not right, and its scary to say...but its the way sports are now at the higher levels.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

All credit to George John Mitchell for a job well done! He's taking them all down!

[SuperBran]

Come on people...are you really suprised by this?

it's not surprising in the sense that most people know this stuff is going on. however, it is shocking in the sense that this report kind of makes it "official" if you know what i mean.

Bonds had to do itagainst jacked up pitchers throwing 10 plus mph faster.

i'd be interested to know how many of the pitchers on the list bonds faces, as well as the number of HRs he hit off them. it's probably safe to say that most pitchers bonds faced were clean; however, every pitcher who faced bonds didn't face a clean bonds.

[proud to be]

Superbran, you are missing my point, and proving it at the same time.

The country will line up to defend Clemens because of the persona the media has created. My comments about him being the all american boy were total sarcasm, but your comments prove that you, and most everyone else buys into the media spin.

There are no degrees of sin in this case. I could care less that Bonds lied to the court system, it doesn't make him any worse than Clemens because Clemens was not presented with this obstacle.

The very fact that everyone on here refuses to put Clemens in the same box as Bonds is a sad statement on the American public.

If Bonds had not eclipsed the HR total this year, he may very well be just another name on the list. He also is not the only one who lied to the court system, but you don't hear about the others. I agree that Bonds records should be stripped, but you better do the same to Clemens and everyone else who cheated their way into the record books.

Clemens in my mind is worse than Bonds, Bonds IS a prick, and he never tried to hide that fact!!!! Clemens has been playing us all for a fool all these years, bragging about his workout regimen, all the while making assanine demands of the teams clamoring for his services, and demanding HUGE contracts that he didn't deserve. Without the drugs, he's an average pitcher, at best, over the last 10 years.........

[SuperBran]

The country will line up to defend Clemens because of the persona the media has created.

isn't this a little premature and speculative? the report came out today. let's sit back and see how the public responds.

but your comments prove that you, and most everyone else buys into the media spin.

that's absurd. i NEVER defended clemens. in your original post you asked if clemens would be treated the same way bonds has been treated. i merely said that he wouldn't and gave my reason why. bonds is an $%# and it's easier to hate an $%# on steroids than a likeable guy on steroids.

I could care less that Bonds lied to the court system

and i'm sure the courts think MUCH differently. once he's caught, the meaning of "going deep" will be totally different to bonds.

The very fact that everyone on here refuses to put Clemens in the same box as Bonds is a sad statement on the American public.

people aren't refusing to "put clemens in the same box" as bonds. people just don't hate him nearly as much. he's not a likeable guy, and he's the one to blame.

He also is not the only one who lied to the court system, but you don't hear about the others.

please name these "others" that we haven't heard about. is this more speculation?

I agree that Bonds records should be stripped, but you better do the same to Clemens and everyone else who cheated their way into the record books.

i think the one glaring difference between bonds and clemens, and the most damaging thing to bonds in the public eye, is the fact that he played dumb and said that he never KNOWINGLY took anything. he tried to convince the world that he had absolutely know idea of what he was taking. nice, but lame attempt.

Clemens in my mind is worse than Bonds, Bonds IS a prick, and he never tried to hide that fact!!!! Clemens has been playing us all for a fool all these years, bragging about his workout regimen, all the while making assanine demands of the teams clamoring for his services, and demanding HUGE contracts that he didn't deserve. Without the drugs, he's an average pitcher, at best, over the last 10 years.........

what's the difference between a prick who lies about steriods and a golden child who lies about steriods? i see no difference as they both still did steriods.

without drugs barry is an average homerun hitter, at best. clemens worse than bonds b/c he bragged about his workout regimen?? LOL. how did bonds explaining his sudden increase in size and homerun production after the age of 40? do you not think bonds has been "playing us all for a fool"? LOL. i think you forget, or choose to ignore, the fact that bonds credited his improvement on his workout regime as well. therefore your argument is weak.

[proud to be]

We obviously agree that they are both guilty. Mark Mcgwire didn't actually "lie", Sammy Sosa pretended that he couldn't speak English, and Rafael Palmeiro vehemently denied , in court, that he used them only to be proven a liar. None of these players are as high profile as Bonds, and not as big a story.

Bonds is EASY to hate. People may WANT to believe Clemens because of the image the media has created for him.

All I am saying is the media has to paint ALL of these guys with the same brush. They cannot afford to play favorites in the face of such damning evidence.

The sad thing is that this entire era is tainted, and all of the "heroes" that our generation have had in MLB, and other sports, are now subject to scrutiny. My point is that Bonds has been picked on by the media due to the fact that he refused to kiss their butts, and do the dance for them. The media has, IMO, targeted Bonds because they can't control him. That is my point......

I also agree that it is too early to tell how the public will perceive this new information. I agree that we need to see how it plays out, as you said.

[SuperBran]

We obviously agree that they are both guilty. Mark Mcgwire didn't actually "lie", Sammy Sosa pretended that he couldn't speak English, and Rafael Palmeiro vehemently denied , in court, that he used them only to be proven a liar. None of these players are as high profile as Bonds, and not as big a story.

Bonds is EASY to hate. People may WANT to believe Clemens because of the image the media has created for him.

All I am saying is the media has to paint ALL of these guys with the same brush. They cannot afford to play favorites in the face of such damning evidence.

The sad thing is that this entire era is tainted, and all of the "heroes" that our generation have had in MLB, and other sports, are now subject to scrutiny. My point is that Bonds has been picked on by the media due to the fact that he refused to kiss their butts, and do the dance for them. The media has, IMO, targeted Bonds because they can't control him. That is my point......

I also agree that it is too early to tell how the public will perceive this new information. I agree that we need to see how it plays out, as you said.

like i said, it's a sad day for baseball.

[TigerDL71]

The country will line up to defend Clemens because of the persona the media has created. My comments about him being the all american boy were total sarcasm, but your comments prove that you, and most everyone else buys into the media spin.



I am going to disagree with you on that statement. I think that Roger Clemens will be seen as a cheat just and a fraud just as Barry Bonds has been preceived. When they were talking about the report on ESPN today they were talking how people will not vote him into the hall of fame because of this. I think part of the reason Barry will get a bit more heat is because the guy treats the media and everyone around him like crap. I don't think too many people will defend him when the facts are clearly spelled out in the report in detail. I think people will hate Clemens because of what was done just as they do Barry Bonds. However, Barry will have the bit of extra haterd because of how he treats the people around him.

[proud to be]

I am going to disagree with you on that statement. I think that Roger Clemens will be seen as a cheat just and a fraud just as Barry Bonds has been preceived. When they were talking about the report on ESPN today they were talking how people will not vote him into the hall of fame because of this. I think part of the reason Barry will get a bit more heat is because the guy treats the media and everyone around him like crap. I don't think too many people will defend him when the facts are clearly spelled out in the report in detail. I think people will hate Clemens because of what was done just as they do Barry Bonds. However, Barry will have the bit of extra haterd because of how he treats the people around him.

To your point, I offer the following:

This morning on ESPN, John Kruk doubted the validity of the evidence because of the source. He said he WANTS to believe Roger due to his superior workout regimen etc......

Peter Gammons backed him up and agreed. While they did leave the door open in case they are wrong, they are already lining up to exonorate Clemens, saying "Clemens threw a high ahd tight fastball, like he always has, at the Mitchell report this morning. He has issued a statement denying all of the allegations" What a load of BS!!!!!

I agree that Bonds is a PRICK, but nobody in the media came out and said "Bonds has just knocked these allegations out of the park, just like he's always done, denying the rumomors... blah, blah, blah" This just proves my point.

Unless you kiss the media's A$$, they will jump on you and hang you if they can.

Bonds and Clemens are both guilty. No way Mitchell comes out with this stuff without due diligence. The media is a WHORE!!!!!!!!!!

[obie7661]

Indians Players Named In Mitchell Report

http://www.newsnet5.com/sports/14850641/detail.html

[SuperBran]

This morning on ESPN, John Kruk doubted the validity of the evidence because of the source. He said he WANTS to believe Roger due to his superior workout regimen etc......

Peter Gammons backed him up and agreed. While they did leave the door open in case they are wrong, they are already lining up to exonorate Clemens, saying "Clemens threw a high ahd tight fastball, like he always has, at the Mitchell report this morning. He has issued a statement denying all of the allegations" What a load of BS!!!!!

you have to realize that A LOT of this "evidence" in the report is heresay, which would be inadmissible in court. you also have to realize that we've only heard one side of the issue. just b/c someone accuses someone of doing something, it doesn't mean that they actually did it. i could publically accuse you of drug use on this site, but would it be fair to say that just b/c i said it, it's true? let's wait and hear all the evidence before we start crucifying people.

also, keep in mind that bonds didn't deny taking steroids. he admitted never KNOWLINGLY taking anything. there's a big difference.

I agree that Bonds is a PRICK, but nobody in the media came out and said "Bonds has just knocked these allegations out of the park, just like he's always done, denying the rumomors... blah, blah, blah" This just proves my point.

when the first allegations of bonds came out, MANY people defended him by saying that there was no evidence. people still to this day defend him. in fact, i was watching espn last night and one HOF voter said he's still vote bonds in. there are people who think bonds is innocent, just like there will be people who think clemens is.

Unless you kiss the media's A$$, they will jump on you and hang you if they can.

i'd say the opposite is more true. if you treat the media like $%#& thay'll hang you.

[proud to be]

you have to realize that A LOT of this "evidence" in the report is heresay, which would be inadmissible in court. you also have to realize that we've only heard one side of the issue.

Isn't most of the evidence against Bonds hearsay as well??? They don't have any receipts, or cancelled checks that I am aware of???


just b/c someone accuses someone of doing something, it doesn't mean that they actually did it. i could publically accuse you of drug use on this site, but would it be fair to say that just b/c i said it, it's true? let's wait and hear all the evidence before we start crucifying people.

Why can't you just admit it??? People just like Roger better, and don't want him to be guilty so he will get the benefit of the doubt. As far as you publically accusing me of something, if you came out and said that you helped me do it, or that you sold it to me, then the onus is on me to prove you wrong, or make you provide proof that you did. I am not saying that Clemens did or didn't. I AM saying that the media will spin it in his favor if they get a chance, because he is "one of the good guys". THAT is an indisputable fact. I actually respect Bonds for not trying to make the public think he is something that he is not. He's a prick, and doesn't care if you like it or not. That makes him a truthful person in that regard. If these allegations are true, it makes Clemens a despicable hypocrite.


also, keep in mind that bonds didn't deny taking steroids. he admitted never KNOWLINGLY taking anything. there's a big difference.

That's only a negative for Bonds if he is lying..... how do YOU know that he is not telling the truth???


when the first allegations of bonds came out, MANY people defended him by saying that there was no evidence. people still to this day defend him. in fact, i was watching espn last night and one HOF voter said he's still vote bonds in. there are people who think bonds is innocent, just like there will be people who think clemens is.
I agree with this...... I have been telling people for months that when the story breaks, there will be people on the list that may break some hearts.


i'd say the opposite is more true. if you treat the media like $%#& thay'll hang you.

This I REALLY disagree with....... the media uses and abuse it's power regularly. Ask NY sports figures like Derek Jeter and A-Rod. Jeter can't carry A-Rod's jock as far as offensive production goes, but the media has created Jeter as THE MAN, and A-Rod as the Pretender. It goes all the way back to Mantle and Maris. Roger was a great guy, but when he threatened the record, instead of Mantle, the media painted him as a surly, arrogant prick, and fans bought into it. I would suggest that your opinion here is a bit off base.

[LLRose]

The Mitchell Report is a huge waste of time and money.

This should be handled in the normal Management/Labor negotiation process.

I believe Management and Labor encourage HGH use by not having an adequate testing policy. Management could end all of this with hard ball tactics that put a hold on the upcoming season until a serious testing program is negotiated with the Labor Union.

Management has public perception on its side. By not playing hard ball, Management's actions can only be assessed as pro drug performance enhancement to sell ticket$.

[SuperBran]

Isn't most of the evidence against Bonds hearsay as well??? They don't have any receipts, or cancelled checks that I am aware of???

bonds admitted taking the substance what was identified as the "clear." he's denying that he knowingly took any roids. he's basically playing stupid. we KNOW he took roids, but the issue is whether he knew what it was. we have no idea, to date, what the truth is with clemens.

if clemens came out today and said that he took injections, but didn't know that they were roids, would you say "gee roger, your'e a good man afterall"?


Why can't you just admit it???

admit what? as an attorney i don't just read a report on the first day and speculate without hearing the other side. i weigh evidence and am simply waiting to see ALL of the evidence.

People just like Roger better, and don't want him to be guilty so he will get the benefit of the doubt.

of course people like clemens better. no one's denying that. but to say that people don't want him to be guilty is asinine. AGAIN, this report came out YESTERDAY. just like MANY people defended bonds when the first allegations came out, people are doing the same with clemens. just b/c EVERYONE doesn't vilify clemens it doesn't mean that EVERYONE wants him off the hook.

As far as you publically accusing me of something, if you came out and said that you helped me do it, or that you sold it to me, then the onus is on me to prove you wrong, or make you provide proof that you did.

in a court of law the plaintiff always has the burden of persuasion. in this case someone says clemens took roids. clemens responds that he didn't take them. it's a matter of "he said, she said." now it's up to those publically prosecuting clemens to prove him guilty. have they met the standard? nope.

I actually respect Bonds for not trying to make the public think he is something that he is not.

he's making the public think he's a clean player, which he's not. do you respect that?

He's a prick, and doesn't care if you like it or not[/B]. That makes him a truthful person in that regard.

not caring what people think of you has NO correlation to being truthful.

If these allegations are true, it makes Clemens a despicable hypocrite.

of course it does. just like bonds is a despicable hypocrite.


This I REALLY disagree with....... the media uses and abuse it's power regularly. Ask NY sports figures like Derek Jeter and A-Rod. Jeter can't carry A-Rod's jock as far as offensive production goes, but the media has created Jeter as THE MAN, and A-Rod as the Pretender. It goes all the way back to Mantle and Maris. Roger was a great guy, but when he threatened the record, instead of Mantle, the media painted him as a surly, arrogant prick, and fans bought into it. I would suggest that your opinion here is a bit off base.

who do you think the media will tend to bash more, the guy who treats them like $%#^ or the guy who's seen as an angel? no one's saying that the media doesn't come down hard on the "good boys."

my opinion is off base? LOL.

[TigerDL71]

To your point, I offer the following:

This morning on ESPN, John Kruk doubted the validity of the evidence because of the source. He said he WANTS to believe Roger due to his superior workout regimen etc......

Peter Gammons backed him up and agreed. While they did leave the door open in case they are wrong, they are already lining up to exonorate Clemens, saying "Clemens threw a high ahd tight fastball, like he always has, at the Mitchell report this morning. He has issued a statement denying all of the allegations" What a load of BS!!!!!

I agree that Bonds is a PRICK, but nobody in the media came out and said "Bonds has just knocked these allegations out of the park, just like he's always done, denying the rumomors... blah, blah, blah" This just proves my point.

Unless you kiss the media's A$$, they will jump on you and hang you if they can.

Bonds and Clemens are both guilty. No way Mitchell comes out with this stuff without due diligence. The media is a WHORE!!!!!!!!!!


I didn't catch what Kruk said this morning on ESPN. However, when I was watching ESPN yesterday since they first started covering the Mitchell report all the way up past Seligs press conferences. They weren't dismissing the allegations. Kruk did stand up for Clemens and said a lot of it was hearsay but the other guy that was on their with Kruk at the time did not dismiss the allegations and bashed Clemons for it. I don't see people backing up Clemens on this one. Heck, they even had a report on ESPN yesterday from Houston and he even said how disgusted he was about the reports. Unless Clemens comes out with undeniable proof that he did not use then I think people will label him as a cheat and fraud and he and Barry Bonds and Mark Maguire will not see the baseball hall of fame for a while.


On Another note. I am glad to see that no current big name Indian is in that report. I think it makes what Grady, Pronk, and Victor and C.C have done the past couple of seasons look even better.

[proud to be]

bonds admitted taking the substance what was identified as the "clear." he's denying that he knowingly took any roids. he's basically playing stupid. we KNOW he took roids, but the issue is whether he knew what it was. we have no idea, to date, what the truth is with clemens.

if clemens came out today and said that he took injections, but didn't know that they were roids, would you say "gee roger, your'e a good man afterall"?




admit what? as an attorney i don't just read a report on the first day and speculate without hearing the other side. i weigh evidence and am simply waiting to see ALL of the evidence.



of course people like clemens better. no one's denying that. but to say that people don't want him to be guilty is asinine. AGAIN, this report came out YESTERDAY. just like MANY people defended bonds when the first allegations came out, people are doing the same with clemens. just b/c EVERYONE doesn't vilify clemens it doesn't mean that EVERYONE wants him off the hook.



in a court of law the plaintiff always has the burden of persuasion. in this case someone says clemens took roids. clemens responds that he didn't take them. it's a matter of "he said, she said." now it's up to those publically prosecuting clemens to prove him guilty. have they met the standard? nope.



he's making the public think he's a clean player, which he's not. do you respect that?



not caring what people think of you has NO correlation to being truthful.



of course it does. just like bonds is a despicable hypocrite.




who do you think the media will tend to bash more, the guy who treats them like $%#^ or the guy who's seen as an angel? no one's saying that the media doesn't come down hard on the "good boys."

my opinion is off base? LOL.


Based on you obviously biased opinions, I think you LOVE the idea that Bonds is guilty. Where we differ is I HATE that Clemens is probably guilty. I HATE that one of the apparent good guys may have been playing us all for a fool!!! You keep comparing Clemens sins to Bonds, THAT IS ASININE if you ask me. The only reason I made a comparison was to illustrate the obviously biased media, and that is playing out on tv and radio. "As an attorney", I understand that you are wanting to wait until all the evidence is in before you make a decision. I just don't get the impression that you are willing to apply the same courtesy to Bonds...... THERE IS STILL NO CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT BARRY BONDS KNOWINGLY TOOK STEROIDS!!

If someone laced your Bacardi and Coke with a foreign substance, does that make you a drug user??

If someone gave you a qualude and told you it was an aspirin, does that make you a drug user if you take it??
You have no idea if Bonds is telling the truth or not when he says "knowingly" do you??? Yet you LOVE to keep throwing him under the bus, while saying we have to wait until all the evidence is in on Roger

You obviously are unable to look at this with an unbiased opinion. Lacking all the facts, however; "as an attorney", that is exactly what you SHOULD be doing..... Bonds's surly disposition is irrelevant.

[SuperBran]

I HATE that one of the apparent good guys may have been playing us all for a fool!!!

look at the words you used above. you said that you hate that clemens may have been playing us all for a fool.

at this point in time it's true to say that there's absolutely no solid evidence that clemens tood roids. above you specifically state that he "may" have fooled us. yet without hearing the other side of the story you're bashing clemens for what he "may" have done.

The only reason I made a comparison was to illustrate the obviously biased media, and that is playing out on tv and radio.

dear god, you really don't get it. AGAIN (for the tenth time) this report CAME OUT YESTERDAY. most people haven't had the opportunity to review the documents.

AGAIN, there were MANY people who defended bonds when the allegations of steroid use came out......just like there are for clemens. BOTH had supporters and bashers. just b/c EVERYONE isn't bashing clemens doesn't mean that they're treating him differently, b/c not everyone bashed bonds.

what part of that don't you get?

"As an attorney", I understand that you are wanting to wait until all the evidence is in before you make a decision. I just don't get the impression that you are willing to apply the same courtesy to Bonds......

i gave the same courtesy to bonds. i felt the same way about him as i did about clemens now. unlike how you're treating clemens, i didn't automatically assume he took roids. it wasn't until he chose his words carefully and said "i never KNOWINGLY took steroids," coupled with the evidence that he took the "clear" that i had an opinion.

THERE IS STILL NO CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT BARRY BONDS KNOWINGLY TOOK STEROIDS!!

but there IS evidence that he took them.

c'mon now, are you that gullible? do you think that a high-profile athlete is not going to know what's going into his body? please. i'm sorry, but willful ignorance doesn't cut it. if that was a defense then athletes who wanted to to roids would be telling their trainers/physicians "hey, do what you want and just don't tell me."

If someone laced your Bacardi and Coke with a foreign substance, does that make you a drug user??

yes. there's no denying the fact that i did use drugs.

If someone gave you a qualude and told you it was an aspirin, does that make you a drug user if you take it??

yep.

You have no idea if Bonds is telling the truth or not when he says "knowingly" do you??? Yet you LOVE to keep throwing him under the bus, while saying we have to wait until all the evidence is in on Roger

AGAIN, we KNOW bonds took roids....we just don't know if he took them knowingly. we DO NOT know whether or not clemens took them. we can only speculate. AGAIN, this is a matter of "he said, she said" so i'll wait for more evidence.

You obviously are unable to look at this with an unbiased opinion. Lacking all the facts, however; "as an attorney", that is exactly what you SHOULD be doing..... Bonds's surly disposition is irrelevant.

you really have no clue. am i the one passing judgment without knowing all the facts? no, that would be you. you're the one who's getting your panties all wadded just b/c everyone won't automatically just hate clemens, but rather chooses to wait and see before foolishly coming to conclusions. that's what i did with bonds, that's what i'll do with clemens.

clemens' lawyer summed it up best:

"Hardin said his client was "outraged that his name is included in the report based on the uncorroborated allegations of a troubled man threatened with criminal prosecution."

and AGAIN, the reason i pointed out that bonds is an #$% is to prove my point that people are going to be a lot harsher towards him because of that fact. it doesn't mean that he's any more guilty.

[proud to be]

look at the words you used above. you said that you hate that clemens may have been playing us all for a fool.

at this point in time it's true to say that there's absolutely no solid evidence that clemens tood roids. above you specifically state that he "may" have fooled us. yet without hearing the other side of the story you're bashing clemens for what he "may" have done.



dear god, you really don't get it. AGAIN (for the tenth time) this report CAME OUT YESTERDAY. most people haven't had the opportunity to review the documents.

AGAIN, there were MANY people who defended bonds when the allegations of steroid use came out......just like there are for clemens. BOTH had supporters and bashers. just b/c EVERYONE isn't bashing clemens doesn't mean that they're treating him differently, b/c not everyone bashed bonds.

what part of that don't you get?



i gave the same courtesy to bonds. i felt the same way about him as i did about clemens now. unlike how you're treating clemens, i didn't automatically assume he took roids. it wasn't until he chose his words carefully and said "i never KNOWINGLY took steroids," coupled with the evidence that he took the "clear" that i had an opinion.



but there IS evidence that he took them.

c'mon now, are you that gullible? do you think that a high-profile athlete is not going to know what's going into his body? please. i'm sorry, but willful ignorance doesn't cut it. if that was a defense then athletes who wanted to to roids would be telling their trainers/physicians "hey, do what you want and just don't tell me."



yes. there's no denying the fact that i did use drugs.



yep.



AGAIN, we KNOW bonds took roids....we just don't know if he took them knowingly. we DO NOT know whether or not clemens took them. we can only speculate. AGAIN, this is a matter of "he said, she said" so i'll wait for more evidence.



you really have no clue. am i the one passing judgment without knowing all the facts? no, that would be you. you're the one who's getting your panties all wadded just b/c everyone won't automatically just hate clemens, but rather chooses to wait and see before foolishly coming to conclusions. that's what i did with bonds, that's what i'll do with clemens.

clemens' lawyer summed it up best:

"Hardin said his client was "outraged that his name is included in the report based on the uncorroborated allegations of a troubled man threatened with criminal prosecution."

and AGAIN, the reason i pointed out that bonds is an #$% is to prove my point that people are going to be a lot harsher towards him because of that fact. it doesn't mean that he's any more guilty.

If you honestly believe that Clemens is not guilty then you are the one that is gullible, no matter when the report came out.

Do you think for one second that Mitchell is going to put these names in print without doing some background work? Wouldn't that open him up to an obvious lawsuit??? Do you think he is stupid enough to only take the word of a "troubled man threatened by criminal prosecution" (nice attempt to discredit the witness, counselor), without doing some background work??

I love the lawyerly double talk you attempt in this thread. I have obviously hit a nerve with you, and you have resorted to semantics to prove your point.

Exhibit 1

OK, you got me, I actually said Clemens "may have" played us for a fool. I actually don't have any proof...... DUH!!!

Have you read this??? Typical lawyering.... ignore some of the facts, and comments, to prove or disprove your opinion...

The fact is you don't have any proof that Bonds, or Sheffield, or Sosa, or Mcgwire etc.... took them either. At least Bonds admitted that he took them, and said he didn't do so knowingly.....

Do I believe him counselor???

Hell no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I prove him wrong

Hell no!!!!

And neither can you.

I love how you quoted Clemens lawyer.... like that will add some sort of credibility to the case. God knows, a lawyer would never say something to protect his client (without really knowing the truth) in the face of mounting evidence would he????

Clemens will NEVER be treated the same way as Bonds, no matter what, and no technicality that you can bring up will justify it. The fact that this just came out yesterday only provides more fuel to what people have been whispering in dark corners about Clemens for years. Anybody who has paid attention is not surprised.

[SuperBran]

If you honestly believe that Clemens is not guilty then you are the one that is gullible, no matter when the report came out.

and if you believe that he's guilty simply b/c some guy facing charges says so, then you're a fool.

again, since you can't comprehend what you read, i'll dump this down and make is incredibly simple. I HAVE NO OPINION AT THIS POINT AND WILL NOT UNTIL I SEE ALL THE FACTS. I NEVER SAID HE WAS NOT GUILTY. now please read this a second time so it FINALLY sinks in.

Do you think for one second that Mitchell is going to put these names in print without doing some background work?

it's the results of his investigation. he interviewed people and reported what he found. just b/c it's in print doesn't mean it's true. if he was concerned with creditiblity he would have removed all the heresay.

Wouldn't that open him up to an obvious lawsuit???

not necessarily. there are defenses to defamation lawsuits, like qualified privilege and fair comment.

.............but i'm sure you think you know more about lawsuits than i do.

Do you think he is stupid enough to only take the word of a "troubled man threatened by criminal prosecution" (nice attempt to discredit the witness, counselor), without doing some background work??

again he's only reporting on what he was told.

I love the lawyerly double talk you attempt in this thread.

don't foolishly mistake "lawyerly double talk" with your inability to comprehend.

OK, you got me, I actually said Clemens "may have" played us for a fool. I actually don't have any proof...... DUH!!!

you're sitting here saying clemens is a cheater, liar, etc......but then state that he MAY have done this and that. that's intelligent.

Have you read this??? Typical lawyering.... ignore some of the facts, and comments, to prove or disprove your opinion...

what facts have i ignored, genius. i think i specifically stated that i'd wait for the facts before forming an opinion. did that go in one ear and out the other? you're the one who's ignoring the fact that there are no facts.

The fact is you don't have any proof that Bonds, or Sheffield, or Sosa, or Mcgwire etc....took them either.

and i didn't say sheffield, sosa or mcgwire took them, did i?

again, did bonds deny taking steroids? he said that he never KNOWLINGLY took steroids. there's a difference.

but i guess the fact that bonds feet and head grew, the fact that he bulked up considerably..............all while over 40...........means nothing to you. yeah, it's just coincidence. i have some beachfront property for you in iraq i'd like to sell you.

At least Bonds admitted that he took them, and said he didn't do so knowingly.....

okay, here's more "double talk"..................above you say that i have no proof that bonds took steroids, but then you go on to say "at least bonds admitted that he took them."

so which is it?

I love how you quoted Clemens lawyer.... like that will add some sort of credibility to the case. God knows, a lawyer would never say something to protect his client (without really knowing the truth) in the face of mounting evidence would he????

did i say that it added credibility to his case? nope. i posted his quote b/c it brings up a good point....that being that this "testimony" came from a guy who was facing prosecution.

god knows a guy facing charges for something would never do whatever he could to avoid a tougher sentence.

the difference between you and i is that i wait to hear the facts before opening my mouth. you spout off without knowing anything.

you're absolutely ridiculous. the reports comes out 24 hours ago, and you're crying like a little girl b/c the world hasn't automatically shunned clemens. you act like the entire world vilified bonds from the start, but that's not so.

[proud to be]

and if you believe that he's guilty simply b/c some guy facing charges says so, then you're a fool.

again, since you can't comprehend what you read, i'll dump this down and make is incredibly simple. I HAVE NO OPINION AT THIS POINT AND WILL NOT UNTIL I SEE ALL THE FACTS. I NEVER SAID HE WAS NOT GUILTY. now please read this a second time so it FINALLY sinks in.



it's the results of his investigation. he interviewed people and reported what he found. just b/c it's in print doesn't mean it's true. if he was concerned with creditiblity he would have removed all the heresay.



not necessarily. there are defenses to defamation lawsuits, like qualified privilege and fair comment.

.............but i'm sure you think you know more about lawsuits than i do.



again he's only reporting on what he was told.



don't foolishly mistake "lawyerly double talk" with your inability to comprehend.



you're sitting here saying clemens is a cheater, liar, etc......but then state that he MAY have done this and that. that's intelligent.



what facts have i ignored, genius. i think i specifically stated that i'd wait for the facts before forming an opinion. did that go in one ear and out the other? you're the one who's ignoring the fact that there are no facts.



and i didn't say sheffield, sosa or mcgwire took them, did i?

again, did bonds deny taking steroids? he said that he never KNOWLINGLY took steroids. there's a difference.

but i guess the fact that bonds feet and head grew, the fact that he bulked up considerably..............all while over 40...........means nothing to you. yeah, it's just coincidence. i have some beachfront property for you in iraq i'd like to sell you.

[QUOTE=proud to be;88846]At least Bonds admitted that he took them, and said he didn't do so knowingly.....

okay, here's more "double talk"..................above you say that i have no proof that bonds took steroids, but then you go on to say "at least bonds admitted that he took them."

so which is it?



did i say that it added credibility to his case? nope. i posted his quote b/c it brings up a good point....that being that this "testimony" came from a guy who was facing prosecution.

god knows a guy facing charges for something would never do whatever he could to avoid a tougher sentence.



Blah.... Blah.... Blah.... Blah..... Blah....

There is no need to stoop to insults counselor!! Easy...... you're badgering the witness!!!!

Do I know more about lawsuits than you do?? Probably not, (or do I?) but I would expect a person of your obvious higher intellect to respond with a little more dignity.......

Wait, let me think......

Lawyer......


Dignity... (my bad)

Insults....

Oh I stand corrected... this is EXACTLY how I should have expected you to respond!

Rely on the fiercely literal translations to prove your point, and toss them away when they apply to you!!!!!!! I'll bet you are very good at your job.....

(Sarcasm)

I'm bored with this lame arguement, I'm above it.....

Just remember when Clemens is exposed........... (Wait, maybe there will be some billable hours there for a Team of bloodsuckers!!!) then tell me who was the gullible one.............

This report only came out yesterday.... totally circumstantial.......Barry has a big head....(now there's some hard core proof!!)

Wow

[Kamd50]

Gentlemen, please stick to the topic of the thread without resorting to personal attacks which are off-topic.

[mbaldwin3]

It isnt like he came up with this report in just a few days, it took him 20 months. Clemens took them. IMO I still think Bonds and Clemens will make it into the hall of fame just because so many other people were doing it around them. Also I believe Pete Rose should have a good chance to get in if they (bonds,clemens) do.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

Bottom line, all those players named in the Mitchell report are screwed and their reputations tarnished!

They can forget about everything they have accomplished...especially after the report that GJM laid out on them!!!

[TigerDL71]

It isnt like he came up with this report in just a few days, it took him 20 months. Clemens took them. IMO I still think Bonds and Clemens will make it into the hall of fame just because so many other people were doing it around them. Also I believe Pete Rose should have a good chance to get in if they (bonds,clemens) do.


If they do make it to the Hall of Fame it is going to take a very long time in my opinion. Look at Mark Mcguire on his first time on the ballot, he didn't even receive 25% of the vote. People will not vote for a cheat and a fraud.

[SuperBran]

Just remember when Clemens is exposed........... (Wait, maybe there will be some billable hours there for a Team of bloodsuckers!!!) then tell me who was the gullible one.............

i truly can't understand what the heck is wrong with you.

i specifically and clearly stated that i was going to form an opinion once i've heard both sides of the story. rather than foolishly coming to a conclusion based on one side of the story, i am going to take an OBJECTIVE approach and make an intelligent decision.

somehow, though, you seem to want me to admit that i support clemens..........which for the hundredth time is not true. what is so hard about understanding that? i really can't make it any clearer. dear god.

you accuse me of not being objective, but who's the one who's not being objective here?

let me say it yet again so hopefully you'll understand......i have NO opinion and will not until i hear both sides of the issue. go ahead an think whatever you want.

regardless of what you think of clemens it doesn't change the fact that baroid is a cheater and a loser.

[austinsm11]

It does look bad for Clemens that Andy Pettite admitted using HGH. If the sources were true about Pettite, why lie about Clemens?

[SuperBran]

It does look bad for Clemens that Andy Pettite admitted using HGH. If the sources were true about Pettite, why lie about Clemens?

i give pettite a lot of credit for manning up and admitting to using hgh. he could have lied like many others, but chose to be a man and face the consequences.

[obie7661]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20071217/lcrmlu071214.gif

[CarlE]

i give pettite a lot of credit for manning up and admitting to using hgh. he could have lied like many others, but chose to be a man and face the consequences.

Agree, but John Smoltz brought up a good point yesterday on Rome's show. Why is it that nobody comes out and admits they did this BEFORE they get caught? Just one time I would like for someone to say, look you may not know this but yes, I did it. It wasn't illegal and I did it. Why won't we ever hear anything like that?

[SuperBran]

Agree, but John Smoltz brought up a good point yesterday on Rome's show. Why is it that nobody comes out and admits they did this BEFORE they get caught? Just one time I would like for someone to say, look you may not know this but yes, I did it. It wasn't illegal and I did it. Why won't we ever hear anything like that?

that's a very good question carl. unfortunately these guys are only willing when their backs are against the walls. it's kind of like michael vick. he keeps saying how he took responsibility for what he did........but he sure didn't take any responsibility at the time his face was on camera proclaiming his innocence. it was only when he knew he was screwed that he decided to come clean and admit what he did.

for the sake of the game i hope more guys come clean about their prior use.

[CarlE]

that's a very good question carl. unfortunately these guys are only willing when their backs are against the walls. it's kind of like michael vick. he keeps saying how he took responsibility for what he did........but he sure didn't take any responsibility at the time his face was on camera proclaiming his innocence. it was only when he knew he was screwed that he decided to come clean and admit what he did.

for the sake of the game i hope more guys come clean about their prior use.

Couldn't agree more, bud.

[austinsm11]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3160063

So it looks like what trainer Brian McNamee said about Andy Pettitte was true but he made everything up about Clemens taking steroids?

[monte81]

You are always going to find people who have cheated, lied, and did whatever it takes to be at the top!! Shame on all those baseball players cannot man up and admit eben after they got caught! For the record---when HGH was not considered illlegal or banned by baseball but just a supplement players should not be accountable for using it then!! It's like banning creatine then coming back and suspeneding people for prior use---crazy! it's over and we should just move forward with punishment for offenses NOW!!


Crackerman----your post was true and funny as hell!