For You Con-Division II People

[MassFan3]

For those of you who were opposed to dropping down to DII, maybe now you see what the reality of our kids' situation is. We are 1 to 2 injuries away from being a GREAT team to a BAD team. I'm not saying we're a bad team right now, but depth was CERTAINLY a factor against Moeller, and things could only get worse. That is the exact reason why we need to drop down to DII for a couple years. Just too hard to compete! Not enough depth.

I love my Tigers, just being realistic. Somebody had to say it! Also, there was some complaining about this game in general - if Massillon was in the FED, odds are the Tigers wouldn't have been playing in this game at all! Just like McKinley!

[tiger#22]

For those of you who were opposed to dropping down to DII, maybe now you see what the reality of our kids' situation is. We are 1 to 2 injuries away from being a GREAT team to a BAD team. I'm not saying we're a bad team right now, but depth was CERTAINLY a factor against Moeller, and things could only get worse. That is the exact reason why we need to drop down to DII for a couple years. Just too hard to compete! Not enough depth.

I love my Tigers, just being realistic. Somebody had to say it! Also, there was some complaining about this game in general - if Massillon was in the FED, odds are the Tigers wouldn't have been playing in this game at all! Just like McKinley!

Good idea, the Tigers lose a game to a larger Div 1 school so that means throw in the towel, play in the Div 2 playoffs next year and join the Fed.:wall:
Please dont jump back on the bandwagon again in 3 weeks when the talk is this team just needed hit in the mouth as a wake up call this season.

[steeltiger]

Sorry but this is flawed in so many ways, I just have to reply. Moeller did not beat us because of the # of boys in their school on Saturday, They beat us with a better game plan, better execution, and they flat out came to play. We did not. There are more than a few DII schools who would hand us an equal or greater whoopin' if we show up to play like that. If I have to read one more idiotic post about how we need to play down to compete I'm going to puke! I figured someone wold try to use the first slip up to try to make this argument. The fact is that Delphos St. John's would have beat us handily on Saturday. This is the 2nd time in the last 18 games that we have come out looking like that from the start. Don't turn this into a division argument. Also, my feeling on that is... if you want to play down, FINE play down. But don't turn around and schedule the big D1 boys in the regular season then. (Including McK) If we can't compete then we just can't compete... Is that what you are trying to say? I'm sure the kids in the locker room would like to argue that one with you.

Take this loss for what it is. It is an early loss by a very good but in some places young football team. They will bounce back and be even tougher to beat from here on out. Even in Division 1!

[Ron01]

You're trying to say we shoul automatically go from runner-ups in the Division 1 final to division II just after one loss? The game might have ended up 28-14 which seems like any normal loss we've had in the past. That first quarter was just insane, I've never seen 3 TD's scored as fast as that. Also, keep in mind that last year we got beat by McKinley almost just as bad, I don't remember any 'lets all panic and go to division II now- we got beat by big boys' posts after that. It's a good thing we didn't too because we ended up beating them in the playoffs en route to the state final game. Stacy isn't going to give up just because of one loss. I think we'll be fine, and hopefully be stuck in Division 1 for a long time.

[DAWGH8R]

Sorry but this is flawed in so many ways, I just have to reply. Moeller did not beat us because of the # of boys in their school on Saturday, They beat us with a better game plan, better execution, and they flat out came to play. We did not. There are more than a few DII schools who would hand us an equal or greater whoopin' if we show up to play like that. If I have to read one more idiotic post about how we need to play down to compete I'm going to puke! I figured someone wold try to use the first slip up to try to make this argument. The fact is that Delphos St. John's would have beat us handily on Saturday. This is the 2nd time in the last 18 games that we have come out looking like that from the start. Don't turn this into a division argument. Also, my feeling on that is... if you want to play down, FINE play down. But don't turn around and schedule the big D1 boys in the regular season then. (Including McK) If we can't compete then we just can't compete... Is that what you are trying to say? I'm sure the kids in the locker room would like to argue that one with you.

Take this loss for what it is. It is an early loss by a very good but in some places young football team. They will bounce back and be even tougher to beat from here on out. Even in Division 1!


:rockin: :iagree:

[bthart22]

The decision to go Division I versus Division II should not be made on the basis of one game, and certainly not when everyone is still emotional from a tough loss. However, there are the realities concerning the potential growth of the community and school system, and the wisdom of having to play the top programs in the state in order to round out your schedule. In that regard, MassFan has some valid points. There are few teams in Ohio that have sufficient depth to play the schedule the Tigers do, and like most high school teams, the loss of a single key player generally does derail a championship run. The smartest move might be staying Division I but placing the greatest emphasis on getting into league to reduce the requirement of having to play the state's best even before the playoffs start. We all want last year to be the norm for our Tigers instead of the exception, but we also cannot get so carried away with our history that we lose our logic.

[ChronicTiger]

For those of you who were opposed to dropping down to DII, maybe now you see what the reality of our kids' situation is. We are 1 to 2 injuries away from being a GREAT team to a BAD team. I'm not saying we're a bad team right now, but depth was CERTAINLY a factor against Moeller, and things could only get worse. That is the exact reason why we need to drop down to DII for a couple years. Just too hard to compete! Not enough depth.

I love my Tigers, just being realistic. Somebody had to say it! Also, there was some complaining about this game in general - if Massillon was in the FED, odds are the Tigers wouldn't have been playing in this game at all! Just like McKinley!

WOW! One loss and your ready to quit. I hope you dont have any contact with the team. We cant have this loser, no fight mentality spreading around.

[scott]

Maybe people are overreacting to the first post. I dont think the original poster was saying we should quit because of one game, was merely stating that depth is a factor when considering Division 1 or Division 2. Also remember Next year we ARE division 2 no matter what we decide because the State is changing the number. So it's not quitting or winning by choosing where we play. You may now over react.
Scott

[tiger4life]

prepare to be flamed :obiefanfire:

[xtiger]

I'm staying out of this one until week 6!!!!






GO TIGERS!

[DaveDawg]

What Massillon should do is hope for a league (any league) and not opt out of Division 1. The Moellers and Iggy's of the Division 1 world will be there in the playoffs waiting IF THEY make that far, get to play them then, the regular season would be great in a league that you play, get better each week against good to sometimes very good teams and you make playoffs...sound (CATS44) fimiliar?

[CATS44]

As no decision should be made based upon one game, no decision should be made based upon one season.

But the fact is this.

Div 1 is dominated by a handful of huge parochial schools with the ability to recruit at the eighth grade level, hence circumventing the OSHAA transfer rule....and by consolidated city schools that have greater drawing power than Massillon. Add to that the fact that the suburban schools are growing by leaps and bounds.

The mathematics of football are simple. Everything being equal, the programs with twice as many football players are going to win a vast majority of the time....esp if they can go out and handpick a few very special talents.

Last year was a very special year, but looking more closely...we beat the worst team that Elder has had in twenty years...a down Iggy squad that lost their key player during the game...a very young Mentor team...a down Warren team...and a junior laden St Ed squad.

At the same time we had our best back to back sr/jr classes in years....and we had few key injuries. We suffered thru two lousy years previous to 2005.

Attendance is on a long downward spiral, and so is the financial situation. We are living in part on the money earned by hosting the state title weekend, but that is far from a certainty down the road.

Unless we make some major decisions based upon present realities, instead of living in the fantasy that it is still the 1950s (and all those football players at Perry and Tuslaw are playing for Massillon), we will kill the football program.

We should join the Fed, retain WGH on the schedule, and fill the rest with schools our size....basically playing a D1 schedule, but competing in the D2 playoffs.

Unless you like those 4-6 seasons with NO playoffs.

[Obie Wan]

We should join the Fed
Now you've done it. :poke:

[Spize]

For those of you who were opposed to dropping down to DII, maybe now you see what the reality of our kids' situation is. We are 1 to 2 injuries away from being a GREAT team to a BAD team. I'm not saying we're a bad team right now, but depth was CERTAINLY a factor against Moeller, and things could only get worse. That is the exact reason why we need to drop down to DII for a couple years. Just too hard to compete! Not enough depth.

I love my Tigers, just being realistic. Somebody had to say it! Also, there was some complaining about this game in general - if Massillon was in the FED, odds are the Tigers wouldn't have been playing in this game at all! Just like McKinley!



OK... now who had 48 hours in the pool? I know I was at 52 hours...

[tiger74]

cats44, the other teams are size will not play us i.e. perry, jackson, north canton,green. why do you think we play alot of catholic schools, because teams are to chicken to play us. we tried to schedule jackson and they choose westerville south and got there butts handed to them. I wish we could play a perry, jackson or hoover but they will not play us. I've only mentioned these teams because they are close to us and may bring fans.findlay, fremont or lima is kind of a travel and will not bring many fans. it really is not like the big schools don't have injuries, look at iggy without there star wr they had nobody else to go to and they have a ton of kids. if the coaches work with the other kids to create depth then we should be ok. maybe not have the backup be the caliber of the star that went down but if they play hard with good fundamentals then we can survive.to me its all about coaching ,we can play with the bigger schools but when you give up fumbles, int's or punt returns every time you play a bigtime school you will lose 8 out of ten times. we also played mansfield, austintown and garfield {I know they lost some kids}, but when we won over these teams for years on end they said we want to go in a new direction. hense them saying we don't feel we can compete.

[DAWGH8R]

Maybe it's time to form a new league !!!!:cool2:

[tiger74]

:iagree: the real ? would be who's in are new league.:scratchchin:

[Banks]

There is no question about it, Massillon WILL be asked to join the Fed League.

[ChronicTiger]

Lets forget about this for now..........

There is a Game this weekend!

Next person to post on this thread is the son of a motherless goat.....

[Kamd50]

At the risk of being called "the son of a motherless goat....." .............
FORGET this s$@# for now! Whether you realize it or not, right NOW our kids need us behind them 100% and not questioning this and that on a public forum:mad:

How bout concentrating on supporting and ENCOURAGING our team and show them that we have complete faith in them that they are going to go there and kick some butt this weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quit talking about what great fans we are and prove it!

:TIG2:

[CarlE]

At the risk of being called "the son of a motherless goat....." .............
FORGET this s$@# for now! Whether you realize it or not, right NOW our kids need us behind them 100% and not questioning this and that on a public forum:mad:

How bout concentrating on supporting and ENCOURAGING our team and show them that we have complete faith in them that they are going to go there and kick some butt this weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quit talking about what great fans we are and prove it!

:TIG2:

THANK YOU!! This is freaking ridiculous. We have a GAME this weekend, and a pretty strategic one against a pretty significant opponent. I sure hope all we are doing is concentrating on that. If not, it sure better be. Folks, we are wounded Tigers right now and we need all hands on deck to get us back on track. And it STARTS RIGHT NOW!!

P.S. Obiewan, your post was funny.

[kenhrln]

As no decision should be made based upon one game, no decision should be made based upon one season.

But the fact is this.

Div 1 is dominated by a handful of huge parochial schools with the ability to recruit at the eighth grade level, hence circumventing the OSHAA transfer rule....and by consolidated city schools that have greater drawing power than Massillon. Add to that the fact that the suburban schools are growing by leaps and bounds.

The mathematics of football are simple. Everything being equal, the programs with twice as many football players are going to win a vast majority of the time....esp if they can go out and handpick a few very special talents.

Last year was a very special year, but looking more closely...we beat the worst team that Elder has had in twenty years...a down Iggy squad that lost their key player during the game...a very young Mentor team...a down Warren team...and a junior laden St Ed squad.

At the same time we had our best back to back sr/jr classes in years....and we had few key injuries. We suffered thru two lousy years previous to 2005.

Attendance is on a long downward spiral, and so is the financial situation. We are living in part on the money earned by hosting the state title weekend, but that is far from a certainty down the road.

Unless we make some major decisions based upon present realities, instead of living in the fantasy that it is still the 1950s (and all those football players at Perry and Tuslaw are playing for Massillon), we will kill the football program.

We should join the Fed, retain WGH on the schedule, and fill the rest with schools our size....basically playing a D1 schedule, but competing in the D2 playoffs.

Unless you like those 4-6 seasons with NO playoffs.


Well said. I agree OH yes. this is not based on one game. My opinion is on 34 years. I was in school when we got beat by Princtin 17 to 14. Not a bad loss. But the begining of where we are at today.

[MTown]

I'm honestly surpised that this thread took so long to surface. I thought it would pop up Saturday night.

But allow me to offer a quick thought. The original subject of this thread was that this game offers indications of why we should go D2...depth. Fine...that is a valid argument. BUT...everyone has already said that if we go D2 we will still play a typical D1 schedule. So, games like this will still be the norm.

I'm not against going D2 if we just play D2 schools in the regular season and in the playoffs. But if we are going to play the SAME D1 opponents in the regular season, why lessen ourselves in the playoffs JUST to win a diluted championship?

Go Tigers
Beat Hamilton

[monte81]

Stop all the non sense of DII! The tigers are going through a rough spot and a gut check! If you base a decision or opinion of this team by one game then you do not know football! I never want to see us lose but in a way we needed something to re focus the team! Bring this thread back in november and see if the feelings are the same!!
Beat Hamilton!

[Smitty]

Just a "what if" the decision is made to compete in the D-2 playoffs...

Will those good (but smaller) teams such as Avon Lake, Tallmadge, Poland Seminary, Steubenville, et al suddenly appear on our regular season schedule?? OR... would they avoid us (like they do NOW) with the strategy of only wanting to take their shot at us during a playoff run??

[monte81]

Just a "what if" the decision is made to compete in the D-2 playoffs...

Will those good (but smaller) teams such as Avon Lake, Tallmadge, Poland Seminary, Steubenville, et al suddenly appear on our regular season schedule?? OR... would they avoid us (like they do NOW) with the strategy of only wanting to take their shot at us during a playoff run??

Big Red might take a chance but we will be playing the same catholic schools we play now because other schools dont want to play us!!!

[Tiger_proud521]

totally agree that we need to support our team. Dropping down is really an emotional issue. Kind of reminds me of that Seinfeld epidode when Kramer was in karate and bragging about how well he was doing and Elaine was getting all pumped up by his accomlishments only to find out that he was up aginst 8 yr olds! Remember that??

While the comparism may be a little extreme, it kind of rings true for us. If we did start to dominate D II then pur foes would just start saying that we couldnt hang at DI (even though this change is inevitible from what I hear next year.) What makes Tiger football so great is and always will be pride. I know for me personally everytime in the past when we were having a great season, like when Zwick was here for instance; he was breaking records and the rest of the tam were highly touted, we were pumped up that this was our year , then ... wham a "ST." team comes along and bursts our bubble. It wasnt the players fault but this is part playing aginst teams with a lot talent and a lot of depth.

That is a pain I have known most of my lfe being a Tiger fan. That for me comes with the territory of being a fan. That is what happens when you root for the giant slayers of the world. That is part of what makes the wins so wonderful. Why else do you think people gather downtown with tears in there eyes from being so proud? Because there is no greater feeling than overcoming the odds and slaying the giant. It makes all the times we came up short worth it. What we did last year was the best of my lifetime that I can remember. We were up against a huge "St" team and we were in there! Our little town, our warriors who didnt have the privelidge or the freedom to pick and choose their players, were in the arena and battling - and we had a chance. That whole night FELT like we were in ancient Rome watching a gladiator fighting against many. I remember we as fans were battling their fans on the other side in itensity of our cheers. It felt like we were part of the game and if we stopped cheering we could of single handly lost the game. Its beautiful stuff, better than any high out there, at least for me. It is the only thing that makes me smile knowing Summer is leaving and the dark cold Winter is coming.

You get a glimpse of the schedule when it comes out and you say wow we are playing some real powerhouses and you get that nervous, uneasy, excited feeling knowing that is could be the greatest season ever or the most depressing. But no matter what you cant wait to see these kids, these kids who magically transform into warriors and become larger then life, who all of a sudden are charged with picking up an entire city and placing it on their shoulders. Hopefully they will be the ones who will go all the way and become legends. We hope that they will be the ones. We hope that these kids, will help us in our own lives feel more special when we are at work and there is that Mck fan who loves to take it to you about recent years and they always have that smirk and they question our legacy, and you know, how we never won it anywhere but on paper and never on the field. You fire back at them with our pride and tradition, but down inside you wish and you watch and break down every play. You watch the replay 4 times as well as going to the game, you read everything you can, you go to the meetings, you get on Mass Proud and dicuss with others, only to hope that this is the year that the monkey gets off our backs. Anything less may not feel the same. This is why we must go to the games, this is why we must support our gladiators that go out there and battle for the city. Except for them they are feeling it much much more, as they are the ones feeling every hit, and they are the ones who gasp for air as they give it there all win or lose. What I hate is also what I love about Tiger football if that makes any sense.

I wish like others that something could be done to even the playing field in terms of "recruiting" players like the catholic schools get to do basically. It isnt fair but that is part of makes the season so special. These debates, our tradition, our fight etc... Last year was magical, it set the bar very high. I love Coach Stacy for seemingly transforming the program over night, I love the players even more for executing. Expectations are huge this year. Going that big out of the box is huge, but also dangerous if we slip. But again win or lose, this fight against the giants is what I love the most about Tiger football and it was sets our program apart from all others around us. I hope that we continue to fight these giants beacuse with each battle I feel we gain strength and knowledge. If we can keep a talented coaching staff around who recognizes our pride tradition and will create continuity throughout our entire program from midget on up we will have a chance to go the big game and beat the biggest baddest giant around. One goal - Slay the giant and win it all! Our team has the talent and drive to do it this year. They know what they have been charged with and they want it. We need to support them no matter what!

Sorry for the rant!! :wow:

[1600TigerFan]

I'll volunteer to take copies of Buckeye special teams to the Tigers film study and work with them on PUNT COVERAGE

[Kamd50]

That would be a real plus:thumbsup:

[longtimefirsttime]

I'm honestly surpised that this thread took so long to surface. I thought it would pop up Saturday night.

But allow me to offer a quick thought. The original subject of this thread was that this game offers indications of why we should go D2...depth. Fine...that is a valid argument. BUT...everyone has already said that if we go D2 we will still play a typical D1 schedule. So, games like this will still be the norm.

I'm not against going D2 if we just play D2 schools in the regular season and in the playoffs. But if we are going to play the SAME D1 opponents in the regular season, why lessen ourselves in the playoffs JUST to win a diluted championship?

Go Tigers
Beat Hamilton


What he said...

[DAWGH8R]

I think I found some help !!!!!! LOL !!!!

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0764539361.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[tiger#22]

There is no question about it, Massillon WILL be asked to join the Fed League.
Not to join in 2007 or 2008 they wont, now after that is is possible they will be asked to join but there is no sense having this Fed debate until then.
BEAT HAMILTON!!!
:TIG2:

[londontown]

Ten years from now the large and small public schools will get fed up with Catholic schools dominating all divisiions ,the OSHAA will have no choice but to seperate the playoffs. One for the Catholic schools and one for the public schools. A friend of mine from N. J. who coaches football stated that these same problems occured for their State. Most teams in N.J were not content with just winning a league title as most teams in Stark county are. Like Massillon they want it all which is the way it should be!:trophy:

[mike_da_man13]

Ten years from now the large and small public schools will get fed up with Catholic schools dominating all divisiions ,the OSHAA will have no choice but to seperate the playoffs. One for the Catholic schools and one for the public schools. A friend of mine from N. J. who coaches football stated that these same problems occured for their State. Most teams in N.J were not content with just winning a league title as most teams in Stark county are. Like Massillon they want it all which is the way it should be!:trophy:
i hope they dont do that thats what makes my baseball and basketball season beating the parochials

[DAWGH8R]

If they made separate playoffs, then the D1 public title itself would be insignificant. The general public would always proclaim the Private school champ, as the REAL CHAMP.

It would be the same as the D1 vs DII argument !!!

[npaflas]

Monte81 that ought to tell you something that the other schools don't want to play us.

[CATS44]

Within a few years we will be in the Fed. Nobody is quite certain exactly how the Fed will be constructed, but my gut feeling is that it will be an all Stark conference. Four D1s (McK, GO, Jackson, Perry) and three D2s (Mass, Hoover, Lake).

Keep Warren, and you have seven games. Buchtel makes eight. Add Garfield and a city school looking for exposure and money (Brookhaven, the new Ytown school, etc)

The schedule then looks something like:

Buchtel
Garfield
Brookhaven
Warren
Hoover
Perry
Lake
Jackson
GO
McK

Seven home games one year, six the next. Six or seven D1s, three or four D2/D3s.

Bigger receipts, far lower costs.

[tiger#22]

Within a few years we will be in the Fed. Nobody is quite certain exactly how the Fed will be constructed, but my gut feeling is that it will be an all Stark conference. Four D1s (McK, GO, Jackson, Perry) and three D2s (Mass, Hoover, Lake).

Keep Warren, and you have seven games. Buchtel makes eight. Add Garfield and a city school looking for exposure and money (Brookhaven, the new Ytown school, etc)

The schedule then looks something like:

Buchtel
Garfield
Brookhaven
Warren
Hoover
Perry
Lake
Jackson
GO
McK

Seven home games one year, six the next. Six or seven D1s, three or four D2/D3s.

Bigger receipts, far lower costs.

My God does time ever fly I cant believe it is April 1st already....
Both Boardman and Fitch have said they like to be in the Fed and it is a good fit for all sports, if they can handle the cost of travel @ $3 a gallon it will only be easier this winter @ $2 or less. I dont see either of them leaving that league in the next 5 years. I dont think that means the Tigers wont be asked to join the league but they probably wont be offered before the 2010 season.

Now to talk about your idea of a schedule that will bring all of this money and more fans...
Buchtel,Garfield and Brookhaven will bring nobody to PBTS and having those 3 to start the season you wont bring in any outsiders (Casual Tiger or non-Tiger fans) because none of them are a "name" team.
Warren they should sign a home and home contract with them forever.
I am not going to get into the Fed attendance argument other then throwning out 8,954 for a first round PLAYOFF game at home that the FED team brought 1,500 max.

I honestly like the schedule that is put together for 07'
1. Middletown- will be loaded next year
2. Herb. Classic at Fawcett...If this is held in a local stadium, the Tigers should always be in it.
3. Parma Normandy at Byers Field
4. Open for week 4 right now,,,Glenoak,,Jackson,,,Perry,,,you know the phone #
5. Mentor- Huge Div 1 school that is a 7-9 win team each year
6. St Ig- back up at Parma, out of St Ig, St Ed's, St X, Moeller, Elder, Colerain at least 1 of these teams should be on the schedule every year
7. Buchtel- good speed, athletic, good computer pt team
8. Warren- Always should be on the schedule
9. Cincy Western Hills- Week 9 should always be a cupcake
10. Mckinley- of course

[Obie Wan]

4. Open for week 4 right now,,,Glenoak,,Jackson,,,Perry,,,you know the phone #
Can't happen; league play.

Too bad we can't move Normandy to week 4 and publically announce our desire to play one of these schools and bemoan the fact that we never get together. It would be interesting to hear the gacks and sputters in the media - although, in truth, I think there's a reasonable chance that Perry might go for it.

[Red50Go]

I honestly like the schedule that is put together for 07'
1. Middletown- will be loaded next year
2. Herb. Classic at Fawcett...If this is held in a local stadium, the Tigers should always be in it.
3. Parma Normandy at Byers Field
4. Open for week 4 right now,,,Glenoak,,Jackson,,,Perry,,,you know the phone #
5. Mentor- Huge Div 1 school that is a 7-9 win team each year
6. St Ig- back up at Parma, out of St Ig, St Ed's, St X, Moeller, Elder, Colerain at least 1 of these teams should be on the schedule every year
7. Buchtel- good speed, athletic, good computer pt team
8. Warren- Always should be on the schedule
9. Cincy Western Hills- Week 9 should always be a cupcake
10. Mckinley- of course

Yeah thats a good schedule. Now look at who we lose next year and reassure me that schedule wont eat our lunch, because I am already a little concerned about it. (But trying not to look ahead right now).

We can play these types of schedules every year, but I hate to say it we might have to accept 2 or 3 losing or .500ish seasons every 10 years also. And hope to stay healthy. Because with our current numbers and level of competition out there I think we are multiple 2 way players from here on out.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

While I agree that we should all be supporting this team 100% today, next week, and throughout the entire season, I can't help but think it's valid to discuss the issues that face those in charge of the program.
In the past I was a staunch supporter of staying Independent, scheduling whoever we wanted, whenever we wanted, and wherever we wanted no matter how much the McK fans complained about our 8 home games per year. I also was opposed to Massillon joining the federal league, or, any league for that matter because "WE ARE MASSILLON"! I was also of the belief that Massillon should never play for a "lower division" Championship, and that the only Championship that mattered in Ohio was the "BIG SCHOOL" Championship!

Over the past 5 years my opinion has changed. I, and many of you have observed some great teams like Benedictine, Avon Lake, Mooney, Steubenville, and others take the field at PBTS and Fawcett to play for "lower division" Championships in front of huge crowds of rabid fans on both sides of the field chearing their collective @sses off with the hope of "A STATE CHAMIONSHIP"!
I, like many of you, interacted with thousands of fans at those venues that surprisingly enough were just as passionate as any Massillon fan, including me! I found that they were extremely proud of their players, coaches, and communities, and they spoke with just as much pride and passion as any Massillon fan!
As the playing field as continually tilted in the favor of "BIG SCHOOLS, and Parochial schools with regards to enrollment and talent, I've come to the reality that even in the best case scenario, with alot of talent, some very good fortune, and some great coaching, we were still the "runners up" for the D-1 Championship. In my opinion, last year was the exception, not the rule. In my opinion, I believe the Massillon Tigers should be playing in D-2 beginning next year, playing in a league as soon as possible, winning league CHAMPIONSHIPS as soon as possible, playing and competeing with a select few D-1 powerhouses every year, playing and BEATING McKinley on a regular basis, and playing for and winning "A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP" on a regular basis!
I can't imagine that any Massillon fan wouldn't support the Tigers as passionately as they ever have if this is what we had to play for every year! This Tiger fan would be just as proud of a victory over an Iggy, Moeller, or St Eds during the season, a victory over McKinley at the end of the regular season, a league Championship, and a State Championship in D-2, as I would if it was a "BIG SCHOOL" Championship!
It wouldn't bother me at all to see Massillon raising the State Championship banners, and displaying the State Championship trophys on a regular basis! If McKinley fan, or, anyother fan for that matter wants to belittle Massillon for winning a "lower division" Championship, so be it!
In the end, "WE STILL ARE MASSILLON", and we can still kick those fans teams @sses on the field if we just keep scheduling them!

OBTW! Lets not forget how good the D-2 teams are. This won't be a cake walk, and every team Massillon plays will be gunning for the Tigers in the playoffs!

[MTown]

There is one argument that keeps popping up that I cannot wrap my head around. For years, we moaned and groaned that we didn't have any two way players when Shepas was here. "Ignatius does it, why don't we". Now that we have several two way players, it is being used as a reason that requires us to play D2.

What's up with that?

[TigerswillbeTigers]

Lol! I haven't heard that reason before! We have plenty of valid reasons to do so, in my opinion any need to use two-way players isn't one of them.

[DAWGH8R]

http://i20.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/0e/bb/69_2.JPG

[MTown]

We can play these types of schedules every year, but I hate to say it we might have to accept 2 or 3 losing or .500ish seasons every 10 years also. And hope to stay healthy. Because with our current numbers and level of competition out there I think we are multiple 2 way players from here on out.

I was referring to this post.

[Red50Go]

You missed the point. I totally support using 2 way players. But that is out of necessity. We dont have the enrollment, or depth, to do otherwise and compete at the highest level. It is by no means the ideal way to go.

X, Iggy, Ed, Elder, Mck, Colerain, all have the occasional player or 2 who is a superstar. But I cant think of ANYONE in the top 5 or top 10 that makes their living at it. Massillon needs to do what we need to do, and we need to have 5-6 guys or more going both ways.

[Obie Wan]

You missed the point. I totally support using 2 way players. But that is out of necessity. We dont have the enrollment, or depth, to do otherwise and compete at the highest level. It is by no means the ideal way to go.

X, Iggy, Ed, Elder, Mck, Colerain, all have the occasional player or 2 who is a superstar. But I cant think of ANYONE in the top 5 or top 10 that makes their living at it. Massillon needs to do what we need to do, and we need to have 5-6 guys or more going both ways.
The way I see it, we have these kids going two ways because that gives us the best team that we can put on the field. That is true irrespective of division. Are we going to go 2-platoon if we play DII? That's saying that we can win DII with less than our best - and I, for one, wouldn't make that bet.

[tiger#22]

As the playing field as continually tilted in the favor of "BIG SCHOOLS, and Parochial schools with regards to enrollment and talent, I've come to the reality that even in the best case scenario, with alot of talent, some very good fortune, and some great coaching, we were still the "runners up" for the D-1 Championship. In my opinion, last year was the exception, not the rule. In my opinion, I believe the Massillon Tigers should be playing in D-2 beginning next year, playing in a league as soon as possible, winning league CHAMPIONSHIPS as soon as possible, playing and competeing with a select few D-1 powerhouses every year, playing and BEATING McKinley on a regular basis, and playing for and winning "A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP" on a regular basis!
I can't imagine that any Massillon fan wouldn't support the Tigers as passionately as they ever have if this is what we had to play for every year! This Tiger fan would be just as proud of a victory over an Iggy, Moeller, or St Eds during the season, a victory over McKinley at the end of the regular season, a league Championship, and a State Championship in D-2, as I would if it was a "BIG SCHOOL" Championship!
It wouldn't bother me at all to see Massillon raising the State Championship banners, and displaying the State Championship trophys on a regular basis! If McKinley fan, or, anyother fan for that matter wants to belittle Massillon for winning a "lower division" Championship, so be it!
In the end, "WE STILL ARE MASSILLON", and we can still kick those fans teams @sses on the field if we just keep scheduling them!

OBTW! Lets not forget how good the D-2 teams are. This won't be a cake walk, and every team Massillon plays will be gunning for the Tigers in the playoffs!

I respect your opinion but dont you think going to 3 final 4's and a championship game in the last 5 years is proof enough to continue to play in the Div 1 playoffs?
Can you tell us how many other teams in the State in Div 1 have been to 3 final 4's in the last 5 years?
Why should Massillon continue to schedule Div 1 powerhouses if they are going to play in the Div 2 playoffs?
If they can compete with them during the regular season why not during the playoffs?
I can see it now the Tigers beat St X during the Regular Season and St X goes on to win the Div 1 title while the Tigers lose in the Semi Finals to Nordonia on a huge upset, would that make you want to say "hey at least we beat the State Champs in Div 1 so we had a good season" ?
I will be waiting for you in a few weeks when you jump back on that Div 1 playoff bandwagon...

[TigerswillbeTigers]

22! I understand your points, I just happen to be of the opinion that it's going to continue to become even more difficult to compete with, and defeat the schools that have growing male enrollments, as well as those that enjoy a much more liberal self governed "open enrollment" policy . Furthermore, I was simply suggesting that I'm personally going to be more than just "fine" with it "if" we end up in D-2, and it's definately not going to be the end of who Massillon is.
Again, it doesn't mean that we can't continue to put D-1 powerhouse rivals like those previously mentioned on our regular schedule. I think Tiger fans would enjoy competing against some of the states best programs who also happen to be some of our biggest rivals, on a home and home basis knowing that we don't have to beat 3 or 4 during the season just to qualify for the playoffs, and 4 in the playoffs in order to win a State Championship!

[HDTiger]

For those of you who were opposed to dropping down to DII, maybe now you see what the reality of our kids' situation is. We are 1 to 2 injuries away from being a GREAT team to a BAD team. I'm not saying we're a bad team right now, but depth was CERTAINLY a factor against Moeller, and things could only get worse. That is the exact reason why we need to drop down to DII for a couple years. Just too hard to compete! Not enough depth.

I love my Tigers, just being realistic. Somebody had to say it! Also, there was some complaining about this game in general - if Massillon was in the FED, odds are the Tigers wouldn't have been playing in this game at all! Just like McKinley!
Did you watch the same game or did you not go, our first team was in with no injuries in the first quarter when the the world fell apart. When you put a second stringer in when the team has already hung it's head same result.... So once again This past saturday we did not play MASSILLON FOOTBALL regardless of who was on the field

[Obie Wan]

Did you watch the same game or did you not go, our first team was in with no injuries in the first quarter when the the world fell apart.
Really? Did you see Michael Porrini or Cody Colly on the field? Did you see the cast on Steve Yoder's hand? I could go on with more examples (and there are more), but I would hope I've made my point: we did not have "our first team with no injuries" on the field at any time last Saturday.

[HDTiger]

So what you trying to say is we played flat and had a real hard time on special teams do to a cast that did not keep him from playing and two palyers whom were not in the game to be knocked out. You put a div 6 team against a team that played that down and you'll see the same thing.

[Obie Wan]

So what you trying to say is
I'm not "trying" to say anything. I said what I meant to say, and I said it very clearly: "we did not have "our first team with no injuries" on the field at any time last Saturday".

[tiger#22]

So what you trying to say is we played flat and had a real hard time on special teams do to a cast that did not keep him from playing and two palyers whom were not in the game to be knocked out. You put a div 6 team against a team that played that down and you'll see the same thing.

I hate to say it but if you go back and watch the game again like I just did you will see that in the first half other then "looking" tired before the game started that the Tigers really didnt play that bad at all. In terms of the punt coverage the first TD was really good blocking (especially 2 blocks) by Moeller and the rest was the kid from Moeller making a great move back across the field. The 2nd TD on the INT was just a bad pass, if Huth hits Gamble in stride it is 6. I dont know if they were using a different ball or what but if you watch the first qtr you will see Huth had a hard time grasping and holding onto the ball. I know these sound like a bunch of excuses but like I said go back and watch the game. I agree with you that was not Massillon Tiger football especially in the 2nd half and they did look flat and tired coming out but we all know we will see a completely different team this Saturday...
BEAT HAMILTON!!!
:TIG2:

[DAWGH8R]

I respect your opinion but dont you think going to 3 final 4's and a championship game in the last 5 years is proof enough to continue to play in the Div 1 playoffs?
Can you tell us how many other teams in the State in Div 1 have been to 3 final 4's in the last 5 years?
Why should Massillon continue to schedule Div 1 powerhouses if they are going to play in the Div 2 playoffs?
If they can compete with them during the regular season why not during the playoffs?
I can see it now the Tigers beat St X during the Regular Season and St X goes on to win the Div 1 title while the Tigers lose in the Semi Finals to Nordonia on a huge upset, would that make you want to say "hey at least we beat the State Champs in Div 1 so we had a good season" ?
I will be waiting for you in a few weeks when you jump back on that Div 1 playoff bandwagon...



AWESOME POST !! :rockin:

[MassFan3]

I'm glad you guys who responded earlier TOTALLY took me out of context and put words in my mouth to boot. Way to read...

With that being said...

How is what I said have ANYTHING to do with quitting? Not once mentioned by me. I simply pointed out (whether you want to believe it or not) that we're a couple of injuries away from average. There was evidence on Saturday. That's my opinion. You may disagree...that's totally sweet and up to you!!


But I still love my TIGERS!!! GOOOO TIGERS BEAT HAMILTON!!!

[Red50Go]

Right on cue, Stacy addressed the point in the Independent today about improving our depth. To paraphrase - Its natural to have some, but you dont want too many going both ways, especially at this level. "Thats a real concern of mine."

Thats all I was saying.

Thank you.

And to tiger #22's point, which many have repeated, about Massillon being able to schedule and compete w/ D1 powerhouses in the regular season so why not opt up to D1 for the playoffs? Please define compete. Or maybe powerhouse. We can and always will compete w/ Mckinley but our record vs Iggy & Moe is like the Fed's record vs us. Adding Colerain, X, & Ed to the mix probably wont improve it much either. Sorry, I love the Tigers w/ all my heart, but we need to be objective and realistic about our decision, and support our team and kids - no matter what!

[monte81]

Wow! I cant beleive that after one loss some people are writing our team off! it really bothers me that people who talk negative constantly but will cheer like he@@ when we win! We had 5-6 players who were banged up and 2 that did not even dress! This game is over and the tigers are getting healthy in time to make a run at the championship! If you dont beleive what im saying then see me the 1st week of December!!!

[Red50Go]

Noone is writing the Tigers off!!! Yes we had kids banged up but it was the effort of the team that did suit up that is upsetting. And if you ask the coaches and the players I bet they says its deserved.

OF COURSE we can turn this around! In a hurry too. Hamilton - Mentor - Iggy. Starting this week. Beat Hamilton!

[monte81]

Noone is writing the Tigers off!!! Yes we had kids banged up but it was the effort of the team that did suit up that is upsetting. And if you ask the coaches and the players I bet they says its deserved.

OF COURSE we can turn this around! In a hurry too. Hamilton - Mentor - Iggy. Starting this week. Beat Hamilton!

I did not say you were writing the tigers off! Read some of the posts talking about drastic changes need made! We had one bad game! The game however was upsetting and we need be mentally prepared for every game!

[Tiger_proud521]

I love the program win or lose, and I hate to say it but going to DII will somehow diminish the program in the eyes of others.

I am not talking about what is best for us I am talking about the mystique and legend of the program and how we are perceived by people outside the area.

Kind of like watching a welter weight fight vs watching a championship heavy weight bout. It isnt fair. Not many parents are wanting their little boy to grow up, move to Massillon so they can play for a solid DII program. DI is the top of the heap.

The state needs to create something that is more fair in terms of competing on a more even plane with the catholic schools and I dont want to seperate the two either as I relish the thought of winning a DI state championship game against those schools but at least give us the same privledge as they get. And that is for men greater than I to come up with as I dont have a clue how to do it other than making recruiting legal but limiting the number of spots that are open to others outside the district so as not to totally take away from the local kids who want a chance. Doing that may also raise the level of competition within the program. I dont know but if we can get to the moon than surely we can fix this unfair advantage that the catholic schools enjoy.

I will still love the Tigers even if they went to DIII, but you cant deny that is going to take something away from us despite the fact we may become a perenial powerhouse in DII.

But I feel that is a topic for after the season as we are just beginning a battle for supremacy in DI right now and we have another enemy trying take us out in two days in our own back yard. We need to focus on the task at hand and back our players right now who want to win.

[Fats]

even plane with the catholic schools and I dont want to seperate the two either as I relish the thought of winning a DI state championship game against those schools but at least give us the same privledge as they get. And that is for men greater than I to come up with as I dont have a clue how to do it other than making recruiting legal but limiting the number of spots that are open to others outside the district so as not to totally take away from the local kids who want a chance. Doing that may also raise the level of competition within the program. I dont know but if we can get to the moon than surely we can fix this unfair advantage that the catholic schools enjoy.


.
"making recruiting legal but limiting the number of spots that are open to others outside the district so as not to totally take away from the local kids who want a chance"

So you think that just because you were born in Massillon that you have a right to be on the First Team even though a better player is on the sideline. If you are good enough, you play(transfer or not).

Also, we have the same rules as all of the other schools private or public. We are an open enrollment school any kid can come to MAssillon for any reason. Football, debate team, choir, Baseball, Track, education. We just need our administration to PROMOTE our Programs. By OHSAA rules they are allow to promote the same as IGGY, ST. X or any other school. ONE MORE thing:
I believe that Girls are allowed to play High School Football, WHY are they not counted towards are Division #s.:kungfu:

[Fats]

I simply pointed out (whether you want to believe it or not) that we're a couple of injuries away from average. There was evidence on Saturday. That's my opinion. You may disagree...that's totally sweet and up to you!!


But I still love my TIGERS!!! GOOOO TIGERS BEAT HAMILTON!!!

Most High School teams are one or two players injuries from being average. Take away a Div. I player and it will hurt most teams. Iggy when they lost that kid that Gamble creamed, I think lost something. Winning in Div.I takes a great coach, one or two Div. I players, and the backups need to be ready to play on a moments notice, and it takes each player to say to himself that he is a TIGER and no one is going to hit harder than me, tackle better than me and give a total effort to one thing WINNING.
WE ARE MASSILLON WIN OR LOSE

[Tiger_proud521]

"making recruiting legal but limiting the number of spots that are open to others outside the district so as not to totally take away from the local kids who want a chance"

So you think that just because you were born in Massillon that you have a right to be on the First Team even though a better player is on the sideline. If you are good enough, you play(transfer or not).

Also, we have the same rules as all of the other schools private or public. We are an open enrollment school any kid can come to MAssillon for any reason. Football, debate team, choir, Baseball, Track, education. We just need our administration to PROMOTE our Programs. By OHSAA rules they are allow to promote the same as IGGY, ST. X or any other school. ONE MORE thing:
I believe that Girls are allowed to play High School Football, WHY are they not counted towards are Division #s.:kungfu:


Ah no that isnt what I meant. In this hypothetical situation, if we were allowed to recruit our players I dont think it would be fair to go outside the district for every player. That would not be the "Massillon" Tigers. Agian i dont claim to have the anwers, thhis is merely a rough outline of a fantasy proposal to fix out dilemma.

If we have the same rules as the other schools then why in your opinion are we not on a level playing field as the Catholic schools? Doesn't the rich tradition and pride in our program do enough to attract? There would have to be other factors at play. Maybe our school system is not up to par like the catholic schools? Maybe our area economy is sub par compared to the areas the Catholic schools are in? I don't know. i do know there is difference?

Also when I refer to recruiting in my fantasy situation I refer to recruiting as scouts going out nd enticing top players around the state. Again a rough first idea to help us level the palying field. Another rough idea is have St Mary's take over the current campus and grandfather every current student as a non tuition paying student of the new catholic Massillon Tigers!! ( FYI I am joking here, but it sounds nice!)

[TigerVic]

Hamilton Chandler had the biggest enrollment of any school in the Herbstreit Classic.

No wonder we were hopelessly outclassed!

[DAWGH8R]

Hamilton Chandler had the biggest enrollment of any school in the Herbstreit Classic.

No wonder we were hopelessly outclassed!


What was their enrollment , Vic??

[President skroob]

3200 total enrolment

[TigerCarl]

Whew! What an explosive debate!

I'm tempted to stir some REAL flak by suggesting we drop to D-3. However, I recall the time long ago (during the Seamen era), when a friend of of mine, exasperated with the way Tiger football was going, joking suggested we join the Federal League. Little did I realize that anyone would someday take him serious!

Look, if we're going to go to D-2, then we might as well go to the Feds. At least then the schedule would equate the new goal.

Anyhoo, it doesn't matter what we say. It's royalty wot makes such decisions. Not we bloomin' peasants.

[longtimefirsttime]

That was one of my first thoughts after the win. Who says the Tigers can't still compete with the "big boys"?