Independent Why It's Good

[Fats]

Why should the Tigers stay with an independent schedule? In another thread, posters talked about the rowdier crowds at away/playoff games. It was "us against the world". That's why we need to stay Independent. I want playoff atmosphere at Paul Brown Tiger Stadium all through the season.:MrT:

[CATS44]

I didnt notice much atmosphere in the last two games.

We shall see what kind of atmosphere we have against Buchtel and Western Hills.

We shall also see what attendance is. So far we have had a crowd of 8600 and a phantom crowd of 6000 (estimated). Considering that Iggy drew 8500 in 2004 and filled only two thirds of its home stands last year, the gate receipts outlook doesnt look good.

It is concievable that we will average less than 7500 per game for our five non McKinley home games.

That wont pay the bills, so plan on anteing up for more unis in the future.

[GrowlingTiger87]

If Tiger fans are asked to step up for new Uni's in a couple of years, don't think for a minute that they won't step up. If it keeps us out of your favorite league CATS, then people will do it!

[obie0130]

not sure how the inde schedule helps the atmosphere at the home games. even when we played warren and mentor at home last year they didn't bring anyone. now, those types of games on the road are a different story since no one travels like us.

[orangeblood]

Cats, I do not mind playing an occasional team from your favorite league, but I do not know many people who want membership. You do, of course. Yes, Jackson will be drawing well, now and in the future. Not. Yes, we will get a lot of fans from stomping Lake. I think not. Shall I go on??:down:

[fyrewood]

Cats, I do not mind playing an occasional team from your favorite league, but I do not know many people who want membership. You do, of course. Yes, Jackson will be drawing well, now and in the future. Not. Yes, we will get a lot of fans from stomping Lake. I think not. Shall I go on??:down:

OB I agree. While attendance may go up initially for a few seasons if we joined CATS favorite league, once they start getting a butt kicking from us on a regular basis year after year (and history shows they will) attendance at football games by their fans will surely drop faster than a young boy's pants at Neverland Ranch. (Sorry, that was a little too much of a mental picture wasn't it? LOL)

[DAWGH8R]

I remember the crowds, or lack there of, when we concluded the Fitch scrimmage. I'll assume Boardman would bring noone. Lake would die out soon, and we've seen how little Hoover fans were at Fawcett last year. Perry would only bring a crowd if they were undefeated.

We sure are in a "no win" situation to fill the stands.

Out of State, out of Country, or the FED ?????

[PainlessPaulus]

I remember the crowds, or lack there of, when we concluded the Fitch scrimmage. I'll assume Boardman would bring noone. Lake would die out soon, and we've seen how little Hoover fans were at Fawcett last year. Perry would only bring a crowd if they were undefeated.

We sure are in a "no win" situation to fill the stands.

Out of State, out of Country, or the FED ?????

You fill the stands with a band of 200 and a team rooster of 100. Then you get the parents and family members at the games.

We have a aging fan base and a non ADA stadium.

doug

[tiger#22]

I didnt notice much atmosphere in the last two games.

We shall see what kind of atmosphere we have against Buchtel and Western Hills.

We shall also see what attendance is. So far we have had a crowd of 8600 and a phantom crowd of 6000 (estimated). Considering that Iggy drew 8500 in 2004 and filled only two thirds of its home stands last year, the gate receipts outlook doesnt look good.

It is concievable that we will average less than 7500 per game for our five non McKinley home games.

That wont pay the bills, so plan on anteing up for more unis in the future.

Last year in 7 home games we had 64,063 do you want to bet we will have more this year at PBTS ? I dont want any of this non-Mckinley crap either that is just a cop out to make your figures lower, even without Mckinley the average will be ABOVE 7500 for the other 5 games at PBTS, hell it is at 7300 right now with playing 2 nobodies.

Speaking of the big boy Fed member Mckinley why dont you give us the attendance for their first 2 home games ?

I think we all know why Ig only drew 8500 in 04' at PBTS, a 3-2 Massillon team with a Coach who everyone had enough of. I would say an easy 12,000 on the 29th for that one.

600 more season tickets will pay the bills along with another deep run into the playoffs, not to mention new people in charge of paying those bills...
Back to JJ's with you and your Fed spew, this town wants something bigger then a lowly league title...

[Obie Wan]

even without Mckinley the average will be ABOVE 7500 for the other 5 games at PBTS
Which could possibly still be the lowest attendance in PBTS history. :poke:

[tiger#22]

Which could possibly still be the lowest attendance in PBTS history. :poke:

It doesnt matter what the other 5 games are because Mckinley is at home this year which is a guaranteed 15,000 minimum.

[CarlE]

Can somebody come up with the average attendance of a Fed game that included McKinley last year? I doubt it's 7500 so I ask are we better off now than we would be? I sure think so, and that's just from an attendance perspective. Forget the dumbing down of our program that this would cause.

[bar_tiger]

Originally Posted by PainlessPaulus
We have a aging fan base and a non ADA stadium

We have a non American Dental Association stadium??? :doh2:

[MTiger]

The ADA is also the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[Red50Go]

Massillon always outdraws Mckinley.

But lets be honest. Attendence means nothing to those opposed to the Fed. Just as a championship means little to those wanting to opt up.

Finding reason on those grounds is pretty fruitless. Not that I agree because I dont, but if this aint a dead horse I dont know what is.

[section3]

when we drop to div. II i don't know how we would be able to hang with all those d. I schools in the fed. we need to find another league that represents are numbers.

[Red50Go]

Case in point. Its ok to not want in the Fed or opt up section3. Of course we can "hang" in D1, whatever that means. But I dont see Howards Rags selling any sweatshirts w/ that on it. Heck, I've had an old Ford pickup for 15 years I still use as a beater (I love that truck!) w/ a bumber sticker that says Titletown, USA. You think anyone else knows where that is??? Lol.

[monte81]

The attendance will pick up as the opponents get better! The younger generation in Massillon is not really enthusiastic about football like we used to be and do not come out unless it is a big game!(sad I know but truthful) i remember games that were 13,000-14,000 when i played in 1988 and that was an intimidating factor for us! I hope we keep improving the caliber of opponents and staying independent will accomplish that and if people dont come to the games they are missing a he@@ of a show!

[TigerCoach]

I remember the same, Monte. We used to average 12-14k for all home games. I know this has been a thread in the past as to why the drop in attendance, but just for reminders: older fans passing away, rising ticket prices, area job losses, games on TV at 10:00 delay, child rearing families not moving into or staying in Massillon due to lack of jobs, etc......

[monte81]

TC,
It is more the jobs then anything in Massillon! 90% of my graduating class moved away because professionals cannot find decent employment! I wish I could live in Stark County but i couldnt make more than $12.00 an hour with 15 years experience and a BA in Management!! Alot of people want to come home to let there kids grow up in Tigertown but financially it is not feasible!

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

CarlE,

The only game that Canton McKinley were in the 10,000's last season was agianst GlenOak, witnessed by 15,000 at Fawcett Stadium as the Bulldogs won 49-7.

I don't know the full average of all the McKinley games in the Federal League other than that one. But if the Bulldogs keep dominating the opposition like dominoes, you have to start wondering at that point if fans from their schools are going to keep coming to see their team fall to the Bulldogs.

[Red50Go]

I remember the same, Monte. We used to average 12-14k for all home games. I know this has been a thread in the past as to why the drop in attendance, but just for reminders: older fans passing away, rising ticket prices, area job losses, games on TV at 10:00 delay, child rearing families not moving into or staying in Massillon due to lack of jobs, etc......

And lets face it. Maybe my mind is playing tricks but I dont remember having to play so many no-name opponents. We seemed to play more of the same teams more often and developed somewhat of a rivalry w/. And only occasionally got a new face. Not like the turnover we have now. Scheduling is definitely alot harder than it used to be.

I think we have a good schedule but take away Ontario, DC, and Western Hills, and replace w/ 3 closer teams w/ half a ballsack and I think our average attendance is alot closer to where it was. (Thanks again Dover!).

[TigerCoach]

You are right, Red50Go, we used to play Perry the first week, which was a nice crowd. Akron St. V-M, Garfield, Barberton, etc.. They certainly brought more fans than D.C. Woodson and Canada, and also St. Ed's!

[Obie Wan]

Our highest average attendance in the last 25 years was 1992. We were 5-5, and played home games against an Indiana school and Youngstown East.

There are clearly factors at work above and beyond team record and unattractive opponents.

[DAWGH8R]

Another thing: I have had season tickets for OVER 20 years. I got mine right out of high school, as a lot of us did. Now, I don't know MANY people under 25 , that have season tickets.

Back in the 80's, there wasn't much else to do. Todays options on a Friday night are unlimited !!:afro:

[monte81]

Another thing: I have had season tickets for OVER 20 years. I got mine right out of high school, as a lot of us did. Now, I don't know MANY people under 25 , that have season tickets.

Back in the 80's, there wasn't much else to do. Todays options on a Friday night are unlimited !!:afro:

Unlimited--- aint nothing in stark county to do for 25 and under but TROUBLE! young adults would rather hang out on the corners and waste gas riding around then see a positive football game or anything positive for that matter!! that is what is wrong with society now-- wasting there lives away! Back in the 80's hey i was playing so all I did was study film(laughs) and practice!! Aint that right TC!

I do feel without the cupcakes on the schedule that attendance would be better-- if we would of been playing a top 25 USA today team people would have came out!! We should never have a Western Hills or Woodson on the schedule to even talk about the attendance!

[Tiger_proud521]

I agree we need to do whatever we can to get the attendance up. I was shocked these past two weeks when I seen how empty the seats were. I thought for sure this year we would be packed with fans seeing as how we just came off a year where we went to the State Championship game!! I thought for sure there would be the band wagon jumping fans coming. I have been taking my 4 girls and their friends all of which are from a different school district to give them an idea of what going to a real football game means. I am happy to say that they stayed in their seats the whole night and were very impressed. Hopefully I have created new fans that will want to start coming. (My daughters firends, not mine, they are already die hard fans despite going to another school.) I also like what I have seen from these contests they have been having for ticket holders where they have random prize drawings. We are going into a different era and it is up to us to get the younger generation out to the games. My Dad and I werent close and he ended up not raising me but one bond we shared from the time I was a toddler was Massillon football. I used to get so excited. I am trying to do the same for my kids and hopefully that will carry on. C'mon Massillon buy a ticket and watch this talented team paly some great football. Bring your friends too!

[jeroe]

The bottom line problem is two fold!

1) The 80's and 90's graduates do not attend.
2) Student section has been on decline for 10 years.

My generation fails to attend games as many live elsewhere. I drive 60 miles to attend the games and have had season tickets every year since graduation except for the first 4, which I was in the military. Very seldom do I run into adults my age even those who I know live in the area.

[tiger#22]

Our highest average attendance in the last 25 years was 1992. We were 5-5, and played home games against an Indiana school and Youngstown East.

There are clearly factors at work above and beyond team record and unattractive opponents.

How convenient to leave out that 92' was a year after the huge run to the semi finals and the Tigers hosted Moeller in front of more then 16,000 and the 17,000 for Mckinley made that average so high. :doh2:

The factors at work have already been mentioned,,,kids have alot more options then going to football games and so many people leave Massillon after graduating. I think if you look around the state at the "name" programs that attendance is down across the board in the last 25 years.

[Obie Wan]

How convenient to leave out that 92' was a year after the huge run to the semi finals
BFD. 2002 was "a year after the huge run to the semifinals" and attendance dropped. What's your point?

the Tigers hosted Moeller in front of more then 16,000 and the 17,000 for Mckinley made that average so high.
Let me rephrase: "The attendance was high because a lot of people went to the games".

[DAWGH8R]

The whole "student section" arguement is very viable !! Back in our Jr High days, you had to get to the stadium EARLY, to get the "primo" seats !! It was packed FULL from top to bottom !! We are losing at least 750 a week in the student section !!

[mike_da_man13]

The whole "student section" arguement is very viable !! Back in our Jr High days, you had to get to the stadium EARLY, to get the "primo" seats !! It was packed FULL from top to bottom !! We are losing at least 750 a week in the student section !!
what do you expect when you dont have the students to fill it ive been to every game since my freshman year(senior) and i would rather sit with my friends and some cousins on the 50 and actually watch the game instead of going into the ss just to socailize

[DAWGH8R]

what do you expect when you dont have the students to fill it

Between the Elementary ,Middle,and High School, there are plenty of butts for those bleachers. We are a little down on enrollment, but there are WAY more than enough kids in Massillon ,to fill the student section a FEW times !!

[Kamd50]

I agree that it would be nice if more students went to the games. On the otherhand, I understand the point mike is making. My son and 2 nephews like to sit with the rest(family members) of us most of the time during the games even though they are all older now. Since it is something they have been doing most of their lives. I know a lot of other boys who sit with their dads. And yet other parents who don't want their kids sitting in the SS because of fights. There were 3 fights the first game and 1 that I know of, last week. The one last week was 2 girls and believe it or not, an innocent bystander (boy) was the one that got yanked out by the police and escorted out because the poor kid tried to break up the 2 maniac girls.

A kid can end up in the middle of something like that or just happen to be in the neighboring seats of a fight and end up getting hurt or getting in trouble.
I will give Mr. Fortner a thumbsup though, for chasing out a group of Perry kids last week that kept walking in front of the student section saying things to the VI's and other students just to start trouble. And it isn't the first time this year he has had to do that already.

I don't think elementary kids are allowed to sit in the student section, though.

[tiger#22]

BFD. 2002 was "a year after the huge run to the semifinals" and attendance dropped. What's your point?



As usual wrong again....

01'- 8 home games with an average of 8,626

02'- 7 home games with an average of 10,080

Try again....:doh2:

[PurpleArmy]

You fill the stands with a band of 200 and a team rooster of 100. Then you get the parents and family members at the games.

We have a aging fan base and a non ADA stadium.

dougThat's true. With 325 kids in the band this year, Jackson's band parents and families take up at least 6,000 or so tickets on their own. :laughing:

Not really, but I know there are a TON of band people at the games. And believe it or not, they didn't all scoot on home after halftime for the last two games. I was amazed and shocked.

Regardless.....I still don't think Massillon should be in the FL. It's not what Tiger fans want and I like them being able to play all the big name schools they currently play. They couldn't do that if they were in a league.

If it ain't broke........

[Fats]

The whole "student section" arguement is very viable !! Back in our Jr High days, you had to get to the stadium EARLY, to get the "primo" seats !! It was packed FULL from top to bottom !! We are losing at least 750 a week in the student section !!

I may be wrong but I have heard that your parents need to have season tickets for the jr high kids (I do not know about HS) to be able to get a student ticket.
Did I hear wrong?

[monte81]

The whole "student section" arguement is very viable !! Back in our Jr High days, you had to get to the stadium EARLY, to get the "primo" seats !! It was packed FULL from top to bottom !! We are losing at least 750 a week in the student section !!

If the parents dont attend the games then most elementary and jr. high kids are not going to be there! 25% of the school population is playing or in the band and 25% are at the games. We have lost over 10,000 residents in Massillon because of jobs in the last 10 years! Everyone thought the new schools would bring people back but they aint going to work for $7.00 an hour so there kid can play football! We need some community projects and big budget developers to attract the people back home! there are tigers who wish they could live in Massillon! My son is 12 and would love to move back to play for the tigers!

[The Butler]

We have lost over 10,000 residents in Massillon because of jobs in the last 10 years!

The population of the city of Massillon has actually grown over the last 20 years. I know much of it be attributed to annexation, but I doubt that the school district has lost 10,000 people.

[monte81]

The population of the city of Massillon has actually grown over the last 20 years. I know much of it be attributed to annexation, but I doubt that the school district has lost 10,000 people.

Grown how? Those new residents either dont have children or ship them to central, perry, or jackson! I am not saying the school sysytem has lost 10,000 people but most must be retired because the enrollment is declining rapidly and people are still producing babies! If we have grown over the past 20 yearsthen where is the jobs, population located-- not in our schools!!

[The Butler]

Massillon City School District population:

1990 - 30,570
2000 - 30,264

[Kamd50]

To answer your question, or comment rather, any jr high/high school student can get a student pass for the student section.

[monte81]

Massillon City School District population:

1990 - 30,570
2000 - 30,264

Residents? Those numbers have to be inflated! I want to see the actual student population-- most of those 30,000 plus have to be over 50 years of age or older! Besides the football program Massillon is a retirement community!

[Tiger_proud521]

It all starts with the parents. If we take our kids to the games and explain to them the tradition behind Massillon football they will get excited. My kids who attend Jackson love going to Massillon games and they love to bring their friends along especially after a big win and everyone gathers downtown. I will say though paying $45.00 a week to go the games just for the tickets can get expensive, so i can see how some parents could steer away from
the games ezpecially in these tough times. But if we dont do something Massillon will lose its magic as the younger genration gets older and they do not know how special these games are. I was not fortunate enough to graduate from Mass as when I was 10 I lived with my grandparents in Tuslaw but I still loved the Tigers more than anything. They had a special place in my heart. It all started from my Dad taking me to the games, and taking me to the stadium for the 4th of July celebraton in the early 70's.I still remember sitting in sect 5 watching fireworks in the "magical" stadium; I was a kindergardner at emerson but I remember like it was yesterday!
My point is it starts with us to pass the torch and it takes incentives from area business to entice fans with incentives like they have started to do now with the random ticket drawings for prizes. But I know there could be more giveaways or other kinds of activities to bring the fans back to keep the tradition back. Besides once tehy come back and realize that these Tigers are for real and they play a heck of a game of football there will no longer be a need for inticements! Lets all come out to the games and be a part of history as these kids march on towards a State Championship game. It doesnt get any more exciting than that!

[monte81]

It all starts with the parents. If we take our kids to the games and explain to them the tradition behind Massillon football they will get excited. My kids who attend Jackson love going to Massillon games and they love to bring their friends along especially after a big win and everyone gathers downtown. I will say though paying $45.00 a week to go the games just for the tickets can get expensive, so i can see how some parents could steer away from
the games ezpecially in these tough times. But if we dont do something Massillon will lose its magic as the younger genration gets older and they do not know how special these games are. I was not fortunate enough to graduate from Mass as when I was 10 I lived with my grandparents in Tuslaw but I still loved the Tigers more than anything. They had a special place in my heart. It all started from my Dad taking me to the games, and taking me to the stadium for the 4th of July celebraton in the early 70's.I still remember sitting in sect 5 watching fireworks in the "magical" stadium; I was a kindergardner at emerson but I remember like it was yesterday!
My point is it starts with us to pass the torch and it takes incentives from area business to entice fans with incentives like they have started to do now with the random ticket drawings for prizes. But I know there could be more giveaways or other kinds of activities to bring the fans back to keep the tradition back. Besides once tehy come back and realize that these Tigers are for real and they play a heck of a game of football there will no longer be a need for inticements! Lets all come out to the games and be a part of history as these kids march on towards a State Championship game. It doesnt get any more exciting than that!

Well spoken!! The tradition will never be gone and as long as people like yourself support our tigers then we dont need no bandwagon jumpers when we take home the trophy in December! We need to do something to get the community and city back to greatness like the football team! Like I said developers, businesses, etc,... the parks are abandoned and shopping is horrible! We need to step it up or the city will be a ghost town!

[Seeker]

Residents? Those numbers have to be inflated! I want to see the actual student population-- most of those 30,000 plus have to be over 50 years of age or older! Besides the football program Massillon is a retirement community!

I’m sorry Monte, but I can’t let such inaccurate posts stand unchallenged. The total population of Massillon that is 55+ is around 25%. That number is within a few percentage points of the state average.
Contrary to popular belief, Massillon is not a community of “senior citizens”. We are nearly the same as all other small and mid-sized cities in the US.
We have been affected by the wave of the baby boom generation, without the benefit of having huge areas of land to develop for housing that is in the Massillon City School District.

Like I said developers, businesses, etc,... the parks are abandoned and shopping is horrible! We need to step it up or the city will be a ghost town!

What on earth are you basing this statement on?
Massillon is recognized everywhere for the amount of positive development going on here.
When I go to the parks they are full of people. The trails are always busy on the weekends, and most evenings too.
As for shopping…the statement above sounds like you have never even been in Massillon.

Where are you coming from with these posts?

[monte81]

I’m sorry Monte, but I can’t let such inaccurate posts stand unchallenged. The total population of Massillon that is 55+ is around 25%. That number is within a few percentage points of the state average.
Contrary to popular belief, Massillon is not a community of “senior citizens”. We are nearly the same as all other small and mid-sized cities in the US.
We have been affected by the wave of the baby boom generation, without the benefit of having huge areas of land to develop for housing that is in the Massillon City School District.



What on earth are you basing this statement on?
Massillon is recognized everywhere for the amount of positive development going on here.
When I go to the parks they are full of people. The trails are always busy on the weekends, and most evenings too.
As for shopping…the statement above sounds like you have never even been in Massillon.

Where are you coming from with these posts?
What --i was raised my whole life in Massillon and on the southside of massillon there is nothing but wallmart and surroundings! If we develop corporate buildings and offices to attarct bigger companies Im not talking about little novalty shops! Downdown is vacant unless we have a parade or car show! you must not drive through town often! Im talking about attracting young people to stay and live in massillon! if we have so many developers and new businesses then where are the jobs!!! Believe me if it were good paying jobs then I would be there permantly not coming home to just to see the tigers! I like Columbus but would rather be home but --NO decent work!!!
You know that a young professional in Massillon has to drive 30- 50 minutes to make decent wages to live on. manpower and labor ready does not cut it!

[DAWGH8R]

Massillon's population has been VERY stable over the years. But, for some reason, the Middle School, and Elementary kids, just don't have an interest in the friday night football games. It's sad, and getting worse.

Maybe too many internets, AIM, MySpace, XBox , and the like !!:doh2:

[Seeker]

If we develop corporate buildings and offices to attarct bigger companies...

Jobs in the city of Massillon and people living in the city are not in any way related.

It’s not 1960 anymore and it never will be again.
The model of residents living where they work like the old days of Superior Meats, Eaton and Republic Steel are long gone.

Having some light industry attracted to our town is a worthy goal, but it will not automatically bring young residents to the school district.

You have to keep in mind that the city and the school district are two very different geographic entities.
Our school district has finite geographic limits. Within that area there are only so many housing units and very little land available to build more. As some of the older people leave, younger people who have children may replace them, but at the same time the people with younger kids will take their place as “empty nesters”.

Honda could build a new plant at the LTV site that would generate 7000 jobs, and our school enrollment would likely not go up at all. If you don’t understand that, then let me know and I will try to explain it to you.

For the last twenty or so years Massillon has slowly but surely been transforming itself into a “bedroom community”. That is, it’s becoming a place where people like to live while they work somewhere else.
That is not only a good thing, it is a wonderful thing.
Our population has stabilized and we are building new homes, condos and apartments.

If you want to see the opposite of our successes, take a look at Barberton, Ravenna, Mansfield and Canton.

You must be too young to remember what Massillon was like in the early seventies. It was already a ghost town, yet still declined more every year. It was pathetic!


The one and only thing that will change our enrollment numbers is a marked improvement on our test scores. Period.
(That issue has been beaten to death on here before.)

For a small city our size, good paying jobs have little or nothing to do with why people chose to live there.

When you consider everything that has happened in the last twenty years to make the city and the school district a better place to live…well you just have to shake your head in frustration that our test scores still suck. It’s the only thing holding us back.
And…sorry…a huge part of the blame, not all of it but a HUGE part…sits squarely on the shoulders of the parents who don’t care a hoot what their kids do scholastically.
It’s a culture thing. The culture has to change first. It’s the first domino that needs to fall to begin to turn things around.

[Obie Wan]

Massillon's population has been VERY stable over the years.
The population in the city has been stable, but the population in the school district has been plummeting.

[Seeker]

The population in the city has been stable, but the population in the school district has been plummeting.

HUH?

First of all, where are you getting actual population numbers for the MCSD? Did you see Butler's post above? http://massillonproud.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9110&postcount=41
Secondly, our actual enrollment is only 152 less than it was ten years ago. That is not "plummeting".
In 1995-1996 we had a total enrollment of 4539. In 2005-2006 we had 4387.
We have more now than we had five years ago, and in fact enrollment has risen for three years running.

It the population of the MCSD has been "plummeting", than the people left must have been making babies like crazy.

Please explain.

[CarlE]

The explanation is that the people left are making babies like crazy. Geez, Great Seeker you even said so yourself!!

[Seeker]

While we're on the subject, here are the enrollment numbers for a couple of other cities:

Canton:
95-96: 12706
05-06: 10688

Down 15.9%
I think you can call that "plummeting" enrollment.


And for Monte, here are the same enrollment figures for the great city of Columbus:
95-96: 61699
05-06: 57827

Down 6.3%

The enrollment in the Columbus City schools has declined at twice the rate of the decline in Massillon. (So much for the land of opportunity.)
Also...the enrollment for Columbus has been steadily declining for YEARS, while Massillon is enjoying an upswing.

[Seeker]

The explanation is that the people left are making babies like crazy. Geez, Great Seeker you even said so yourself!!

Carl, in this thread I'm starting to feel like you, i.e. "Why do I bother?"

And I want to yell:

Class Dismissed!

[CarlE]

See? SEE? I KNEW you would eventually see my way of thinking. It's not so easy now, is it?? LOL.

[Obie Wan]

First of all, where are you getting actual population numbers for the MCSD? Did you see Butler's post above?
Yeah, but I'm not sure I'm buying those numbers. According to the US Census, Massillon's population in 2000 was 31,325. His post says there were 30,264 people in the school district.

Do you really believe that there were only 1100 people in Massillon that didn't live in MCSD? That sounds completely implausible to me when you consider all of the folks who live west of 17th/Carmont SW (Tuslaw) and all the folks who live off Richville (Perry).

Please explain.

1. Graduating classes have gone from 500 to 300 in the last 25 years. It's hard to reconcile that with stable enrollment numbers.
2. Several elementary schools have closed in the last few years (York, Harvey, Lincoln). It's hard to reconcile that with stable enrollment numbers.
3. One junior high closed several years ago (Jones). It's hard to reconcile that with stable enrollment numbers.
4. One parochial school closed several years ago (St. Joe's). It's hard to reconcile that with stable population numbers in the immediate area.
5. According to the US Census (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/39/3948244.html), Massillon's population grew .6% between 1990 and 2000. Given that a) Massillon has about doubled in size in the last 25 years, and b) most of the new housing is in newly annexed areas that lie outside MCSD boundaries, it's hard to reconcile that information with a stable population inside the school district.
6. According to the ODE, enrollment in MCS dropped from 5,098 in 1993-4 to 4,547 in 2003-4. That's about an 11% decrease in 10 years.

[tiger#22]

2. Several elementary schools have closed in the last few years (York, Harvey, Lincoln). It's hard to reconcile that with stable enrollment numbers.
3. One junior high closed several years ago (Jones). It's hard to reconcile that with stable enrollment numbers.


"last few years" and "several years" you do realize that Harvey closed 25 years ago and Jones was before that.

[Kamd50]

Not to mention St. Joe's has been closed for quite a looooooooong time also. Which had to do with issues with money in the parish. As far as some of the elementaries closing, they just redirected the enrollment. There are 5 K classes alone at Franklin.

[Fats]

And lets face it. Maybe my mind is playing tricks but I dont remember having to play so many no-name opponents. We seemed to play more of the same teams more often and developed somewhat of a rivalry w/. And only occasionally got a new face. Not like the turnover we have now. Scheduling is definitely alot harder than it used to be.

.

Some of those teams we played more often were not giving us much competition, nor as many visitors. I think teams like Garfield, Fitch etc that we played regularly could not compete with us and I think they chose not to play us.

[The Butler]

Yeah, but I'm not sure I'm buying those numbers. According to the US Census, Massillon's population in 2000 was 31,325. His post says there were 30,264 people in the school district.

Do you really believe that there were only 1100 people in Massillon that didn't live in MCSD? That sounds completely implausible to me when you consider all of the folks who live west of 17th/Carmont SW (Tuslaw) and all the folks who live off Richville (Perry).

Never doubt Butler's numbers when it comes to Census info. http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Animations/no-no.gif
http://www.odod.state.oh.us/research/schooldistricts/stark/massillon_city.pdf

[Obie Wan]

"last few years" and "several years" you do realize that Harvey closed 25 years ago and Jones was before that.
Do you understand the concept of "long term trends"?

Not to mention St. Joe's has been closed for quite a looooooooong time also. Which had to do with issues with money in the parish.
Like not enough tuition-paying students.

[Fats]

The point I wanted to make with this thread, was not attendance(a lot of factors go into it) - Our ticket sales have risen this year.
I just think being independent allows us a flexibility that a league (any league we would join) would not give us. I like being able to schedule the top teams in the state, and because of our schedule we need a few sure wins, especially games 1 - 2. Just look at other teams that are not independent, they have dropped the Big Boys on the block. If we were in a league that is what we would have to do. Massillon wants to play the games that draw attention to our program.

[Obie Wan]

According to the 2000 US Census (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&pctxt=fph&_lang=en&_sse=on&geo_id=16000US3948244&_state=04000US39&show_2003_tab=&redirect=Y), there were 5864 people in Massillon between the ages of 6 and 17. According to the ODE, there were 4,339 students in Massillon schools in 1999-2000 in grades 1-12. Anyone care to explain what those 1500 kids were doing every day if they weren't in school? I doubt that private schools and open enrollment account for all of them.

[The Butler]

Why do you continue to use city population figures when I provided a link to the school district figures? They come from the same place. And the number 6-17 in the district is 5,250.

[Seeker]

OK Class, please see if you can follow this.

Massillon City School District has finite boundries. The size and population of the city of Massillon has nothing to do with this.

Within the MCSD, there are, for all practical purposes, a set number of housing units. Indeed some new ones are built, but many are torn down or burn down also.

Therefore, the key question, and only key issue is the number of kids being produced by and living in each household.

Any lightbulbs going off yet?

In the early 60's birth control came into wide use. Later on abortion became legal.

Still no lightbulbs?

OK, study this chart:



http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9097/livebirthsandfertilityratesgq1.jpg


From 1945 to around 1960 there was a huge spike in the birth rate. That translated into a large high school population from 1960 through the mid 1970's.
Between 1960 and 1975 the birth rate dropped 46%.
That translates into an expected 46% decline in Washington High School enrollment from 1975 to around 1994.
At that point we should see some leveling off in enrollment and graduating classes, which in fact we have.

Hopefully this sheds some light for you all on why we used to have classes numbering 500, and now we are more around 300.

We probably have close to the same number of households with families, just less kids in each one.

This should be obvious to Kamd50, Carle and all the other members that are near our ages.
Every block in town used to have twice the number of kids in it than live there now.

To increase our enrollment we have these options:
Get the boundries changed. (Very difficult.)
Increase the number of households. (Tear down R1 to rebuild R3+, not likely.)
Increase the birth rate for MCSD. (Laughable)
Change the demographic so that older people are selling their homes at a profit to younger people of child-bearing years. (Doable.)
Attract enrollment from other districts. (Doable.)

As noted, the last two things are doable.
The key to both is one thing and one thing only:
Raise the test scores. (Which is what I said before in this thread.)

How do we raise the test scores?
Get the parents to care more.

The whole thing has nothing to do with jobs or the local economy, except more industry might attract a higher educated better paid demographic that would care more about their kids academic pursuits.

Class dismissed again.

[Seeker]

Obie Wan, I don't know where you get your enrollment numbers from, but I use the ODE site for such info, and my numbers never match yours.

Also, I would caution you to note that "enrollment" is NOT the number of kids enrolled. It is based on ADM, which is average daily memberhship.
These are two very different numbers as any principle can tell you.

The number to use is Year-end Head Count, which is based on actual enrolled students.

[monte81]

Seeker,
As far as Columbus goes we are the #7 biggest city inthe U.S. with around 1.7 million and the kids who seek better test scores go to better school districts like Gahanna, Dublin, Worthington, and periocial schools in the area because these schools are exceeding the state standards. Not to mention that the school districts were realigned to accomadate the growth putting more students in the suberb school district-- no decline plus employment is superior to any city in the state!

I do agree with you that the academic state of the city is a sad number! The parents are the blame but the community and politics of Massillon play a role also! I just want to see the enrollment increase and test scores drastically improved! The city needs to make adjustments with the education and handling of academic business!
My mother would not let Darion even suit up if he had academic issues and Travis and I had the same treatment! As far as culture--the things that kept us from the streets, drugs, and all the other negatives are missing! The boys and girls club is not the same and the youth centers have been closed in favor of the rec center! What is there for the kids to do in a city where both parents work and it is nothing consructive to do without money! All I am saying Seeker is that as a community we can turn it around but it takes more than just talking! As for the minority population we need more diversity and culture awareness in the schools! It has been many-many Massillon star players with the right community guidence and better education might be raising better kids today instead of watching them ruin themselves. Poor test scores lies on the parents, community and accountability of the school district!

[Kamd50]

Hopefully, if this new method of separating boys and girls at the middle school shows favorable results, it may very well help to improve enrollment. I would think that this may be an attractive alternative to some parents whose children may be having difficulty elsewhere. I believe they will be getting their first official "report card" on how it is going in about 9 weeks.

About St. Joes, OW, more like parishoners not being able to "afford" rising tuition rates.

[Obie Wan]

Why do you continue to use city population figures when I provided a link to the school district figures? They come from the same place.
Because the numbers that you provided just don't seem to match the reality of what my eyeballs tell me. To wit: I find it very hard to believe that Massillon has about doubled in size in the last 25 years, yet only about 3% of the population lives in the "new" areas.

The only way that is possible is if a significant chunk of MCSD remains outside the city limits. Does it?