Our problems?? NO Strength training

[pup pounder]

I was talking to one of the players who informed me that our strength training regime is lax.Then i remembered what devoe said at the begining of the season about his workouts being harder at canton south.I dont recall us loseing the battle of the line of scrimage so often.This is a possibility.Lets not stick our head in the sand.We need to look at the facts here and fix this.You don't just replace a Steve Studer

[Red50Go]

This MUST be addressed in the off-season. I do not think there is even an argument that we have gotten progressively slower and weaker the last 2 years. Players we really counted on losing weight instead gained more. I have never seen a program or roster w/ so many players above 300#, and I mean way above.

Its not about hindsight or talent levels etc. I (and anyone w/ a football brain) saw this coming from the very 1st moment we got rid of the WV speed & strength program after 1 year, after all that success. That was & remains to me the single most inexplicable (or awful) decision I think we have ever made. :huh:

[slider63]

Another reason the O line loses the battle up front is because the lineman stand up instead of firing out to make a block. The coaches are aware of this because coach Stacy mentioned this and showed this Monday. Slider, out!!!

[TigerCoach]

Another reason the O line loses the battle up front is because the lineman stand up instead of firing out to make a block. The coaches are aware of this because coach Stacy mentioned this and showed this Monday. Slider, out!!!

Tigercoach has been talking about this for 2 years now.

[macguy]

Another reason the O line loses the battle up front is because the lineman stand up instead of firing out to make a block. The coaches are aware of this because coach Stacy mentioned this and showed this Monday. Slider, out!!!


Looks like they need to bring back the steel cage. I remember dinging my head once on that thing during practice and really tried hard to stay low after that. Put the lineman in there and have one right outside the cage. That will force them to come out low and STAY low to win the battle.
The best was when they would put the boards down in the cages to force us to keep a wide stance.

[slob55]

Squatting cures cancer. It's a metaphor.
Think about it.

[monte81]

Squatting cures cancer. It's a metaphor.
Think about it.

We do not squat at Massillon anymore? Things are really changing in HS football when coaches are not teaching players to develop quad and hamstring strentgh to compete through the squat. Squating is the best way to build those areas if done correctly.

[mike_da_man13]

We do not squat at Massillon anymore? Things are really changing in HS football when coaches are not teaching players to develop quad and hamstring strentgh to compete through the squat. Squating is the best way to build those areas if done correctly.

squatting is stupid especially when you can do the press get the same workout on ur legs/hamstrings and not kill your back

[slob55]

squatting is stupid especially when you can do the press get the same workout on ur legs/hamstrings and not kill your back

Wow. Please refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.

[obie7661]

Looks like they need to bring back the steel cage. I remember dinging my head once on that thing during practice and really tried hard to stay low after that. Put the lineman in there and have one right outside the cage. That will force them to come out low and STAY low to win the battle.
The best was when they would put the boards down in the cages to force us to keep a wide stance.

The cage, the boards, and the blarney stone ... I remember them all so well. Albeit, not fondly

[Red50Go]

squatting is stupid especially when you can do the press get the same workout on ur legs/hamstrings and not kill your back

That is a technique issue, not a free weights issue.

This seems to be the new theme w/ our conditioning program. Make it simpler and easier, so everyone likes it, thus participation and results will increase. It has the exact opposite effect. Glaringly so.

The bright side is coaches dont have to hear parents complain anymore.

[monte81]

squatting is stupid especially when you can do the press get the same workout on ur legs/hamstrings and not kill your back

Funny that I squated for years and have no back issues! it is all about teaching and proper technique. And no---- leg presses are not the same!

[TigerDL71]

Funny that I squated for years and have no back issues! it is all about teaching and proper technique. And no---- leg presses are not the same!

I think a lot of programs are using the power clean more and using that to replace the squat. I could be wrong though.

[tiger51]

Wow. Please refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.



WOW...very true...

[monte81]

I think a lot of programs are using the power clean more and using that to replace the squat. I could be wrong though.

They are but that does not its a better lift for linemen success or football strength altogether.

[massillon catholic]

We lost speed when Shepas left and lost strength when we lost Stu.

[TigerDL71]

They are but that does not its a better lift for linemen success or football strength altogether.



I agree with you. I think the combination of the two lifts is what really improves the linemen.

[crackerman]

Mike da non-squater,

Please do not even try to argue this one. Slob55 will chew you up on this one. Monte, Massillon didnt squat last season or this season. Same time the WVU speed program left. I actually think that the hang clean is better for football oriented athletes than the power clean though.

[massillon catholic]

Mike da non-squater,
Monte, Massillon didnt squat last season or this season. Same time the WVU speed program left.


Isn't this the same as what I said?

[crackerman]

close. From my understanding, the team squated and did the WVU spped during Stacy's first year (state title game) then stopped shortly after.

[massillon catholic]

close. From my understanding, the team squated and did the WVU spped during Stacy's first year (state title game) then stopped shortly after.

Yea, because it was Shepas' idea!

[slob55]

I think a lot of programs are using the power clean more and using that to replace the squat. I could be wrong though.

It's definately a combination of the two. I prefer hang cleans over power cleans, but that could be debated for hours with no definative answer. Both are fantastic football lifts.
However, let me make this extremely clear: the squat is by far the bar none best athletic lift you can perform to increase your players overall strength. Mental toughness, increased workload capacity, aggresive behaviour, and team unity are all very convenient biproducts of the squat as well.

[massillon catholic]

It's definately a combination of the two. I prefer hang cleans over power cleans, but that could be debated for hours with no definative answer. Both are fantastic football lifts.
However, let me make this extremely clear: the squat is by far the bar none best athletic lift you can perform to increase your players overall strength. Mental toughness, increased workload capacity, aggresive behaviour, and team unity are all very convenient biproducts of the squat as well.

Then why did we quit doing it?

[TigerDL71]

It's definately a combination of the two. I prefer hang cleans over power cleans, but that could be debated for hours with no definative answer. Both are fantastic football lifts.
However, let me make this extremely clear: the squat is by far the bar none best athletic lift you can perform to increase your players overall strength. Mental toughness, increased workload capacity, aggresive behaviour, and team unity are all very convenient biproducts of the squat as well.

I still remember Stu having us touch the rope with our butts when we squatted. Aren't hang cleans probably safer for a high school to do because it takes a lot of technique to be able to truely master the power cleans?

[slob55]

I still remember Stu having us touch the rope with our butts when we squatted. Aren't hang cleans probably safer for a high school to do because it takes a lot of technique to be able to truely master the power cleans?

You could argue that, and you may have a valid point. My preference in the hang clean (as a football lift) is the over emphasis in leg explosion and core torque that generates momentum in the bar. This can be performed in the powerclean, but it is usually cut short by the low rack position and change of weight to what ends up as a glorified front squat. I like my kids to squat when they squat, not when they hang clean.
If the hang clean is performed correctly, the athlete will generate all the momentum in their legs and core while recruiting the traps and shoulders for the high rack. In my opinion, the high rack is more football specific and I'll tell you why. Anyone who has been through a two-a-day practice as a player knows that after the first few days of hitting, your traps, shoulders, and legs are the first muscles to get sore.The hang clean and it's high racking position is one of the best lifts to develop these muscles and the explosive nature athletes need to be good football players.
But once again, nothing beats the squat.

[massillon catholic]

But once again, nothing beats the squat.


Then why don't we do it at Massillon anymore?

[sly4458]

slob55 i think we need to hire you for the strength coach. hmmm let me see slob as in slob acres? 55? any relation? if so its time to get you back on board!!!

[crackerman]

slob55 i think we need to hire you for the strength coach. hmmm let me see slob as in slob acres? 55? any relation? if so its time to get you back on board!!!

Nope. he isn't going anywhere..lol. Nice try though.

[massillon catholic]

[QUOTE=sly4458;73085]slob55 i think we need to hire you for the strength coach.


That would make too much sense!

[sly4458]

yes it would make sense. we need to get that young man back on the staff. he has bee around this program all his life. im not saying that he will take us to the promise land. but ill be glad to get back to stu land and the sooner the better!!!!

[mike_da_man13]

Wow. Please refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.

educate me then then go down to the professional trainer that told me that and educate him.... why do they use leg press instead of squatting then? what muscles don't get worked out that squatting does? leg press helped me with the power issue more than squatting ever did. If you ask me the sprinters are what should be back in the weight room.

btw im just curious tell me the advantages because i don't know

[massillon catholic]

educate me then then go down to the professional trainer that told me that and educate him.... why do they use leg press instead of squatting then? what muscles don't get worked out that squatting does? leg press helped me with the power issue more than squatting ever did. If you ask me the sprinters are what should be back in the weight room.

btw im just curious tell me the advantages because i don't know

I though he already did.

[mike_da_man13]

I though he already did.

he didn't explain the difference the only thing you could really say is mental toughness.... i want to know why its better.

[ChronicTiger]

I could bench press every last one of you........

Regards,
Chuck Norris

[mike_da_man13]

I could bench press every last one of you........

Regards,
Chuck Norris

with his left pinky only

[monte81]

I still remember Stu having us touch the rope with our butts when we squatted. Aren't hang cleans probably safer for a high school to do because it takes a lot of technique to be able to truely master the power cleans?

Anyone on here every worked out in Coach Stu's torture chamber(basement) before? Coach Stu and Spielman had a special name for it but I called it "HELL"!! You had better be an elite, trained weight lifter to tackle one of Coach Stu's special workouts.

Bigger, Faster, Stronger, and Unbeatable!!!

[Tiger Flame]

At one of our football kickoffs.coach Huffman spoke on the speed program that Shepas had put in place here that he got from West Virgina. Huffman said he had never seen such great results as this program ! How the kids not only put on size but they also increased their speed as they were getting bigger. He played here and coached here and has been around our conditioning program for a long time and this program was outstanding according to him with GREAT results ! I think that speaks volumes. Why in the world,would we do away with it ? GO TIGERS I HOPE WE OVERCOME

[monte81]

At one of our football kickoffs.coach Huffman spoke on the speed program that Shepas had put in place here that he got from West Virgina. Huffman said he had never seen such great results as this program ! How the kids not only put on size but they also increased their speed as they were getting bigger. He played here and coached here and has been around our conditioning program for a long time and this program was outstanding according to him with GREAT results ! I think that speaks volumes. Why in the world,would we do away with it ? GO TIGERS I HOPE WE OVERCOME


I have the book and my 13 year old sons will start the program this spring!! A wise x-tiger in Waynesburg emailed to me!LOL

[macguy]

Anyone on here every worked out in Coach Stu's torture chamber(basement) before? Coach Stu and Spielman had a special name for it but I called it "HELL"!! You had better be an elite, trained weight lifter to tackle one of Coach Stu's special workouts.

Bigger, Faster, Stronger, and Unbeatable!!!

I never worked out in the basement, but sure do get nostalgic about the wieght room at the old HS. There were many days when we went home sore, but satisfied that we had accomplished something.

[massillon catholic]

At one of our football kickoffs.coach Huffman spoke on the speed program that Shepas had put in place here that he got from West Virgina. Huffman said he had never seen such great results as this program ! How the kids not only put on size but they also increased their speed as they were getting bigger. He played here and coached here and has been around our conditioning program for a long time and this program was outstanding according to him with GREAT results ! I think that speaks volumes. Why in the world,would we do away with it ? GO TIGERS I HOPE WE OVERCOME


Dee dee dee

[Tiger Flame]

Well Monte 81--I am glad your sons will benefit from this great program and that you have enough sense to let them do it. It will help them immensely ! GO TIGERS I HOPE WE OVERCOME

[Red50Go]

educate me then then go down to the professional trainer that told me that and educate him.... why do they use leg press instead of squatting then? what muscles don't get worked out that squatting does? leg press helped me with the power issue more than squatting ever did. If you ask me the sprinters are what should be back in the weight room.

btw im just curious tell me the advantages because i don't know

What professional trainer? Scandanavian health spa? Machines are better for most people because we are soft flabby has beens and wannabees who want to stay in some kind of shape w/out tearing something or breaking a hip. No offense to you. I go and I use them too but I dont exactly puke in bucket afterwards either.

[rebel1418]

This MUST be addressed in the off-season. I do not think there is even an argument that we have gotten progressively slower and weaker the last 2 years. Players we really counted on losing weight instead gained more. I have never seen a program or roster w/ so many players above 300#, and I mean way above.

Its not about hindsight or talent levels etc. I (and anyone w/ a football brain) saw this coming from the very 1st moment we got rid of the WV speed & strength program after 1 year, after all that success. That was & remains to me the single most inexplicable (or awful) decision I think we have ever made. :huh:

I totally agree with you. Getting rid of the WV speed and strength program was a terrible decision!! I would like to hear Stacy's explanation as to why he scrapped it. I don't understand it when we had such great results.

[rebel1418]

Another reason the O line loses the battle up front is because the lineman stand up instead of firing out to make a block. The coaches are aware of this because coach Stacy mentioned this and showed this Monday. Slider, out!!!

No doubt about it! They do not fire out at all. Dont get me wrong, I think the kids effort is there but the fundamentals are not. That's not the kids fault.

[rebel1418]

squatting is stupid especially when you can do the press get the same workout on ur legs/hamstrings and not kill your back

Squatting is the king when it comes to developing leg and hip strength. If we are not squatting then that explains a lot. If done correctly with proper form, squats are safe and way better then the leg press.

[rebel1418]

Yea, because it was Shepas' idea!

If that's the reason we quit the WV speed and strength program, then that is terrible!! The coach should stay with a program that prepares the kids the best to make a run at the title.

[rebel1418]

educate me then then go down to the professional trainer that told me that and educate him.... why do they use leg press instead of squatting then? what muscles don't get worked out that squatting does? leg press helped me with the power issue more than squatting ever did. If you ask me the sprinters are what should be back in the weight room.

btw im just curious tell me the advantages because i don't know

The advantages of squatting over the leg press is that squats force you to use stabilizer muscles involved in performing the lift. Leg press does not. It takes your whole body to stabilize the weight when performing the squat.

[1600TigerFan]

http://www.med.und.nodak.edu/depts/pt/research/Plyo3/LegPressvsSquat.htm

[LakeCountyTiger]

Couple things here.. On the lifting... My best friends son plays for the Iowa Hawkeyes (#2 QB,) And I got to watch the DVD they send out to all the incoming freshmen. Couple things stood out while I watched, well actually they pointed it out over and over. They really emphasize proper technique in every movement even stretching which they do alot of (sounds basic I know). The other thing is they do nearly all exercise with free weights even though they have machines as far as you can see. But the interesting part is and they stressed this over and over is they do as many as possible standing up, things you might sit for like certain presses they stand up. The reason is it consistently makes your body work to stabilize your core, they called it building your inner strength. They also used "explosion" techniques.. For instance jumping at the end of a certain movements bearing weights.. Of course these are college athletes and it involved much less weight and supervision for those movements. But machines do have a place there because of the number of players, less supervision, less spotters etc... But I personally think the team just needs to get in there and work, do something and do it all year...
I've watched this Mentor program take off it even though we all know how big their pool of kids are they still work really hard all year. Have to lift in shifts and they know if they don't there really will be someone taking their job. The one day I was there I saw the linemen going in, I saw a boatload of 210-260 lb well conditioned looking athletes. If you look at their roster, it's not like they have 310 linemen all the way across.
Also, I'm 99.9% sure they do a variation of the WV speed workout, and to make it worse if my memory serves me correctly they started doing it because teams like us were doing it at the time. I think they spend time down there in the summer, I will find out for sure tomorrow..Anyway, just thought I would jump in here and add my 2 cents worth. Strength, Speed Desire= Massillon football.. It's the way it's always been and it needs to be that way always

[LakeCountyTiger]

Oh yeah, Iowa does alot of squats...

[TigerSupport]

Mike da non-squater,

Please do not even try to argue this one. Slob55 will chew you up on this one. Monte, Massillon didnt squat last season or this season. Same time the WVU speed program left. I actually think that the hang clean is better for football oriented athletes than the power clean though.

Not to be picky but the team did squat last season and even into this summer before the new leg press machines were purchased.

[TigerSupport]

Squatting is the king when it comes to developing leg and hip strength. If we are not squatting then that explains a lot. If done correctly with proper form, squats are safe and way better then the leg press.

Rebel & Slob....

Tell that to Michigan and Penn State....those guys are REALLY small, slow, and weak:zzz:

[slob55]

educate me then then go down to the professional trainer that told me that and educate him.... why do they use leg press instead of squatting then? what muscles don't get worked out that squatting does? leg press helped me with the power issue more than squatting ever did. If you ask me the sprinters are what should be back in the weight room.

btw im just curious tell me the advantages because i don't know

I didn't want to have this conversation, but I will probably lose sleep tonight knowing someone is misinformed and blasphemizing the squat.
Before I begin on how the squat is superior (not just better) than the leg press, I want to define the goals that a coach is trying to obtain in his athletes. I'm assuming that because this topic was brought up on a football forum revolving around weight room activity for football players, the goal of a coach would be to increase strength, power, agility and speed in his players. If that is his intention (not bodybuilding, high intensity training for cardio pathways, or simply being able to lift more kids in less amount of time with fewer coaches to supervise) then the squat is by far the best lift of any lift to have athletes perform. I will explain why.
First, and possibly most importantly, the squat does not isolate the leg muscles like the leg press does. When you are sitting in an incline position on a leg press you are doing two things terribly wrong for your athletes. 1. You are isolating the legs and not working your complete core or posterior chain (hammys, glutes, lowerback). 2. You are putting your athlete in a position that he will never (or should never) be in while on the playing field. That position of course is on his butt or on his back. When you squat, you are working your legs, your core (abs/lower back) and also your chest and lats because your body is fighting to stabilize the massive load of iron placed across your back. This develops an uncanny increase in raw strength and power in the athletes entire body. Leg press cannot do that for you.
Second, the leg press eliminates balance which takes less coordination and as I mentioned above, less muscle recruitment from other areas (i.e. core and chest). You can throw around 500 lbs easy on a leg press, but put that weight on a bar that is tearing the flesh off your traps and it is not quite as easy. Extraneous factors such as balance make it harder and also make the exercise more productive.
To wrap things up, I'll comment on something that someone else had posted on earlier. When you squat, you are on your feet. While training athletes it is very important to train with their feet on the ground and generating as much force as possible throughthe ground. This is because generating that force is one of the factors that makes an athlete faster (the other factors being stride length and stride frequency, which many aspects of the WV program is very good for). By training the transition of force from the athlete through the ground, you are making them faster and more agile.
I hope that this cleared up any confusion about the squat and it's superiority to other lifts. The best way for you to learn the benefits however, would be to get underneath the bar. I suggest you do so as soon as possible. But before you do anything, fire your professional trainer.

[TigerSupport]

The squat is a good lift IF (and that's a very large IF) you have superior and perfect technique.....it's hard for a college kid to get perfect technique, let alone a high school kid.

[TigerSupport]

The Tigers are doing a variation of the Penn State leg workout - I think those guys MIGHT know what they're doing! Let's trust them!!! Holy cow!!


GO TIGERS!!!!!

[slob55]

I'm not knocking the Tigers strength program. Just stating my opinion about the squat.
Don't confuse Div 1 high school athletes with Div 1 NCAA Big Ten athletes. There is a little bit of a difference there.

[massillon catholic]

Rebel & Slob....

Tell that to Michigan and Penn State....those guys are REALLY small, slow, and weak:zzz:

No, they aren't, but Michigan is 0-2

[longtimefirsttime]

What professional trainer? Scandanavian health spa? Machines are better for most people because we are soft flabby has beens and wannabees who want to stay in some kind of shape w/out tearing something or breaking a hip. No offense to you. I go and I use them too but I dont exactly puke in bucket afterwards either.

Sorry, but reading the post I couldn't help but think of
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/94/pics/94dupdate3.jpg
(Photo, SNLtranscripts.jt.org)

[pup pounder]

Interesting,Slob you are da man.There is nothing like actually lifting within your body's natural plane of motion.any machine is just a simulation which allows the target muscle to be worked in a safer way,However efficiency and overall muscle fiber recruitment within the target muscle will always drop.Theres always a new fad And Massillon has the resources to try the latest and greatest.You can't replace core movements like the dead lift or squat and not lose power explosiveness and pure animalistic push till you puke intensity.I'm sorry but that's just what it takes.Stu had it,We don't anymore.I understand when a new coach comes in he wants to make it his program.But someone dropped the ball on this one.With our enrollment we need every advantage possible.Whats the answer?Hopefully the powers that be will recognize the problem.Hire a proven full time strength and conditioning coach knowledgable in bio nutrition,plyometric speed training and let him do his job.

[blackswarm3]

Just to add to what Slobby was talking about. One thing that people tend to forget is that at the top of the squat after you have gotten out of the hole (the very bottom of the squat) and you stand up, at the top you are supposed to push your hips through or forward. This motion is supposed to be duplicated on the football field in the tackling motion. As the tackler shoots his arms up the back of the ball carrier with his head up, facemask on the ball he is supposed to roll his hips through the ball carrier creating that squat or clean motion of rolling your hips to almost a stand up position after making contact with your knees bent. When your hips go through you break the ball carrier down. If this is done correctly it looks very pretty and is the technique taught most places (hopefully). If you make a tackle and do not bring your hips with you then the ball carrier has a better chance to running through the tackle as you are bent over trying to make a tackle with no leg drive and no snap in your hips. The squat and clean are two very good lifts.

[monte81]

Just to add to what Slobby was talking about. One thing that people tend to forget is that at the top of the squat after you have gotten out of the hole (the very bottom of the squat) and you stand up, at the top you are supposed to push your hips through or forward. This motion is supposed to be duplicated on the football field in the tackling motion. As the tackler shoots his arms up the back of the ball carrier with his head up, facemask on the ball he is supposed to roll his hips through the ball carrier creating that squat or clean motion of rolling your hips to almost a stand up position after making contact with your knees bent. When your hips go through you break the ball carrier down. If this is done correctly it looks very pretty and is the technique taught most places (hopefully). If you make a tackle and do not bring your hips with you then the ball carrier has a better chance to running through the tackle as you are bent over trying to make a tackle with no leg drive and no snap in your hips. The squat and clean are two very good lifts.


Great post and explanation blackswarm3!!!!!!:rockon:

[Red50Go]

The Tigers are doing a variation of the Penn State leg workout - I think those guys MIGHT know what they're doing! Let's trust them!!! Holy cow!!


GO TIGERS!!!!!


Maybe thats their problem. All them all-Americans and lil ole WV has passed them by. :) You cant tell me WV is not faster from what I see.

[blackswarm3]

I also did a study in college (a very small one at that) with the students in my class. There also has been several studies done that proves that squatting will increase your speed. The correlation between a good squat and a good 40 time is very high. The Olympic speed skating team does sets of 100's in the squat. I think they would need as much leg drive, power, and speed that they can get. I know that it is a different sport but they are looking for the same attributes as in football. Speed power and strength. Take a look at this...

Maurice Greene's training


Mondays and Fridays....Lower Body
Squats....4 X 10, 8, 6, 3 (each rep is held at the bottom for 5 seconds, then explodes up)
Power Cleans....5 X 3 (start at bottom in deadlift position, snatch BB up top chest, drop the BB back down on floor)

I found this on a website and I do not know if it is legit but it seems right to me. That is just a sample of his workout.

[Kamd50]

I really appreciate the posters who have taken the time to make intelligent posts on this thread. I actually learned something of value.:thanx:

[massillon catholic]

I really appreciate the posters who have taken the time to make intelligent posts on this thread. I actually learned something of value.:thanx:


The interesting thing about the majority of posts, is they aren't coming from the Massillon coaches. These guys should be here teaching what they know. They have a wealth of valuable knowledge and information that we could use and we need.

[MRR55]

I Know This For A Fact, Steve Studer Taught The Squat To Perfection!!! Man Do We Miss Him In More Ways Than One.

[massillon catholic]

I Know This For A Fact, Steve Studer Taught The Squat To Perfection!!! Man Do We Miss Him In More Ways Than One.

The only ones that can carry-on with the proper techniques are his past students who learned it the right way.

[DAWGH8R]

The only ones that can carry-on with the proper techniques are his past students who learned it the right way.

And KIDS !!

[TigerDL71]

I also did a study in college (a very small one at that) with the students in my class. There also has been several studies done that proves that squatting will increase your speed. The correlation between a good squat and a good 40 time is very high. The Olympic speed skating team does sets of 100's in the squat. I think they would need as much leg drive, power, and speed that they can get. I know that it is a different sport but they are looking for the same attributes as in football. Speed power and strength. Take a look at this...

Maurice Greene's training


Mondays and Fridays....Lower Body
Squats....4 X 10, 8, 6, 3 (each rep is held at the bottom for 5 seconds, then explodes up)
Power Cleans....5 X 3 (start at bottom in deadlift position, snatch BB up top chest, drop the BB back down on floor)

I found this on a website and I do not know if it is legit but it seems right to me. That is just a sample of his workout.

Great post. I am just curious, does lunges have any effect on speed or did the squat have the biggest correlation?

[man2man]

The interesting thing about the majority of posts, is they aren't coming from the Massillon coaches. These guys should be here teaching what they know. They have a wealth of valuable knowledge and information that we could use and we need.

OMG dude. Don't you think Massillon coaches have more important issues right now than checking forums to see if we understand the squat?

If they were on here, you'd be the first one screaming "What the h*ll are they doing on here when we're 1-2" :doh:

[blackswarm3]

From what I can remember squat had the highest correlation. Although lunges are also very good for speed training. Lunges not only strengthen your legs but they stretch your hammy while you are lifting. A longer stronger muscle means you can cover more ground faster. I really like the around the world lunge. Instead of just going in one direction (forward) you step side, 45, straight, 45 side, back 45, straight back, back 45 and back to the beginning. In football you are not always going straight ahead. so why train like you do.

[betsx4]

Seems like we're getting more into using a lot of machines instead of free weights. Which is the one thing I remember from Coach Stu, was how important technique was with the free weights. Never sacrifice weight for technique sound familiar to anybody? As freshmen he would take EVERY athlete under his wing and basically make them get the right technique down so that the squat did not cause any type of back injuries. If you weren't keeping your back straight or getting low enough, then he would make you stop and put less weight on. The one thing that i feel is the most important that slob talked about was the position you were in when you lifted. Under Stu, the 4 core lifts we did was the squat, hang clean, bench, and deadlift. 3 of the 4 being in a good athletic position on your feet (the exception the bench, of course). But, it seemed thats one thing that Shepas did well too was to stress that you reflected what you did in the weight room on the football field.

Me and a buddy of mine know a lot of the young kids and hear some things about the weight room and we get so disappointed at how things are going. It seems like they're getting too lenient with all of Stu's rules, and he was THE MAN. Period. His philosophy in there should be held for forever, for that's just one of the standards of a Massillon Tiger. I recall Shepas coming in and making us stop in the middle of a lift to do a punishment ab work-out because the numbers were not face up on all of the dumbells. It's just the little things like that that us former players under Stu understand made us that much better. Perfection was demanded and strived for with Stu in the weight room. I think the current staff is just getting too lenient in there, it should be harder than the football field.


Each player knew the rules and it would get to the point where the coaches wouldn't have to yell at kids about what they were doing wrong. The leaders and seniors would instruct the other players and get in their *** because it had been pounded into theirs for so long.

[siberiantigerman]

I know the powerlifting team squat their butts off! They do a combination of box squats and parallel squats. When the football conditioning starts it all stops for some reason.

[Kamd50]

Who is in charge of the team?

[Kamd50]

I have a question for any of you weight lifting gurus; could someone explain what the proper technique is for the deadlift? thanks

[massillon catholic]

I have a question for any of you weight lifting gurus; could someone explain what the proper technique is for the deadlift? thanks

I think slob55 explained this in a post several months ago but I cant find it. Probably got deleted.

[OTC TIGER]

could someone explain what the proper technique is for the deadlift? thanks

Why noy ask "tiger embalmer"...:jestera:

[Kamd50]

Gee, it would be nice if I could get a real answer without the wisecracks.

[Tiger54]

This MUST be addressed in the off-season. I do not think there is even an argument that we have gotten progressively slower and weaker the last 2 years. Players we really counted on losing weight instead gained more. I have never seen a program or roster w/ so many players above 300#, and I mean way above.

Its not about hindsight or talent levels etc. I (and anyone w/ a football brain) saw this coming from the very 1st moment we got rid of the WV speed & strength program after 1 year, after all that success. That was & remains to me the single most inexplicable (or awful) decision I think we have ever made. :huh:
Well, whose decision was that----Stacy's or Partidge's?

[OTC TIGER]

Gee, it would be nice if I could get a real answer without the wisecracks.

Sorry Kamd50 I couidn't resist that one...O.K. let's begin...typically you would
use an olympic sized bar..45 lbs..squat down,keeping your back straight and head up grip the bar shoulder width and come to a standing position...NEVER
arch your back or use too much weight :weightlift:

[Kamd50]

Haha, Ok! What I specifically want to know is when you are lifting the weight, are you supposed to literally have contact with the front of your shin bones and knees with the bar, as my son has been told, "if you are drawing blood , you are doing it right"???

[OTC TIGER]

You could possibly brush your knees..but drawing blood is a little extreme..
again if you use too much weight it will cause an incorrect move toward the shins.

[massillon catholic]

as my son has been told, "if you are drawing blood , you are doing it right"???

That doesnt sound right too me.

[Kamd50]

Me either, but he was specifically told to drag the weight bar against his shins and up over his knees.....and some other comments I won't mention here. Which makes me wonder if someone knows what in the heck they are doing.

[massillon catholic]

Me either, but he was specifically told to drag the weight bar against his shins and up over his knees.....and some other comments I won't mention here. Which makes me wonder if someone knows what in the heck they are doing.


I'd do some further checking before he gets himself hurt. It may very well be the correct way to do it, but it sure doesn't sound right and I have never heard of the "do it til you bleed" statement.

[Kamd50]

That is why I am hoping for some further replies from some posters that are quite knowledgable on this topic, as I am not.

[9293tiger]

I can't believe the strength program Im hearing about. Ther will never be another chicken breast eatin studer that brings the intensity into that weight room. I know slob55 knows what im talking about, cause I have a good idea who slob55 is. He knows his turnips.

[hitman]

squatting is stupid especially when you can do the press get the same workout on ur legs/hamstrings and not kill your back

You Have NO CLUE:huh: !

[TigerSupport]

I was talking to one of the players who informed me that our strength training regime is lax.Then i remembered what devoe said at the begining of the season about his workouts being harder at canton south.I dont recall us loseing the battle of the line of scrimage so often.This is a possibility.Lets not stick our head in the sand.We need to look at the facts here and fix this.You don't just replace a Steve Studer

*sigh*....it's people like you who make me feel good about myself....no strength program? I'm thoroughly interested in which player told you that...I can name a number of players who benefited from the program

[Red50Go]

*sigh*....it's people like you who make me feel good about myself....no strength program? I'm thoroughly interested in which player told you that...I can name a number of players who benefited from the program

Absolutely. Trust us, it shows on the field, just as it was also very evident who did NOT improve. Not fair to single anyone out, but hard to argue we were generally weaker and slower from 05 to 06 to 07. That is unfortunate for the guys who really worked/played their butts off, but its a TEAM game.

[slob55]

Me either, but he was specifically told to drag the weight bar against his shins and up over his knees.....and some other comments I won't mention here. Which makes me wonder if someone knows what in the heck they are doing.

I'm not sure if drawing blood is a vital part of perfect deadlift technique, but it can be an unfortunate bi-product of good form. When you dead lift you want to keep the bar as close to the body as possible so that your back and core can stay tight and prevent back injury. Many new deadlifters tend to pick up the weight with their backs instead of their legs, keeping the bar close to the body helps correct this. If you are using a new bar the thread is probably sharp, which might tear the skin off of the shins. I've had this happen many times. If it concerns you, buy your son or daughter some long socks or have them pack a pair of sweats on deadlifting day. That will take care of the problem.
I'm sure the coach was using a figure of speech when he said that.

Stay slobby.

[Kamd50]

I'm not sure if drawing blood is a vital part of perfect deadlift technique, but it can be an unfortunate bi-product of good form. When you dead lift you want to keep the bar as close to the body as possible so that your back and core can stay tight and prevent back injury. Many new deadlifters tend to pick up the weight with their backs instead of their legs, keeping the bar close to the body helps correct this. If you are using a new bar the thread is probably sharp, which might tear the skin off of the shins. I've had this happen many times. If it concerns you, buy your son or daughter some long socks or have them pack a pair of sweats on deadlifting day. That will take care of the problem.
I'm sure the coach was using a figure of speech whne he said that.

Stay slobby.

Ahhh, finally, a real answer to my question! It is greatly appreciated and will take your suggestion to heart. Thank you.

[massillon catholic]

Absolutely. Trust us, it shows on the field, just as it was also very evident who did NOT improve. Not fair to single anyone out, but hard to argue we were generally weaker and slower from 05 to 06 to 07. That is unfortunate for the guys who really worked/played their butts off, but its a TEAM game.

Speed is the name of the game. Dumping the West Virginia speed training program really hurt Massillon.

[slob55]

No problem.
Check your PM as well.

Ahhh, finally, a real answer to my question! It is greatly appreciated and will take your suggestion to heart. Thank you.

[WODoubt78]

First of all, any comments from Devoe should not be used as guidance for the Massillon program. The kid's been here 1/2 a year - we don't need to change our programs based on what he says. We've been doing this a lot longer than he has. Second, I'm sure the program will be enhanced with the new athletic facility and courses being put in place. We'll correct it, we're Massillon.

[Tiger54]

First of all, any comments from Devoe should not be used as guidance for the Massillon program. The kid's been here 1/2 a year - we don't need to change our programs based on what he says. We've been doing this a lot longer than he has. Second, I'm sure the program will be enhanced with the new athletic facility and courses being put in place. We'll correct it, we're Massillon.
Well, we may be Massillon but we don't dominate people any more. It used to be that we would be stronger than the opponent at the end of a game but that doesn't happen any more.

[TigerSupport]

Yeah so let's all blame the staff instead of holding the players accountable for getting into the weightroom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rockon:

[Chubby Tiger]

You could very well be scraping your shins by doing this lift. I would not worry about it too much personally because as your son perfects his technique I am sure that the problem will fix itself. Deadlift is a hard lift to master because of the natural tendency of a new lifter to want to use his back. I think the comment made by the coach may have been an exaggeration. Nevertheless, the strength program needs serious some serious work. I was told by a varsity coach over the summer the kids dont even enjoy lifting weights and just view it as a thing they have to do. I know when I played we loved being in the weight roomm, going all out competing with each other. I think it was definetly something Stu instilled in us. We need someone in there to light a fire under these kids and make them use those beautiful buckets they have in there during workouts.:puke:

[Kamd50]

You could very well be scraping your shins by doing this lift. I would not worry about it too much personally because as your son perfects his technique I am sure that the problem will fix itself. Deadlift is a hard lift to master because of the natural tendency of a new lifter to want to use his back. I think the comment made by the coach may have been an exaggeration. Nevertheless, the strength program needs serious some serious work. I was told by a varsity coach over the summer the kids dont even enjoy lifting weights and just view it as a thing they have to do. I know when I played we loved being in the weight roomm, going all out competing with each other. I think it was definetly something Stu instilled in us. We need someone in there to light a fire under these kids and make them use those beautiful buckets they have in there during workouts.:puke:

Thank you for the additional input, Chubby Tiger. It helps us to be able to have a more accurate perspective on things and coaches' comments:wink: Although he has lifted before, this is his first go around with the power-lifting team and we all have a lot to learn.

[shooter]

As far as the leg press vs. the squat, it's pretty easy to determine which is more effective. Go to the club and use the leg press machine, do three or four sets with 300-400 pounds. It should be pretty easy for anyone to do 10-12 reps. Take off a week or so and see how sore you are. Then do three or four sets of full squats with just 100 or so pounds. Try to do these on a Thursday. You'll be sore on Friday and then on Saturday you'll be really, really sore.

If muscle is built by damaging muscle tissue, and if soreness is an indicator of muscle damage, you'll be able to figure out which movement is more effective.