Shake up at The Legends.

[giant lugey]

The Rec Board lets go the director of operations at The Legends. Now that the course is in the best shape it has been in in 5 years, they let the guy go.
I don't get it.

[Spize]

Welcome to Massillon, take a look around, take a sniff at wal-mart, or try to get a decent price on land that the city bought overpriced, sold underpriced, and Deville is selling at way overpriced. Then ask yourself why everyone in Massillon is looking for a job or not happy with the crap job that barely pays over minimum wage that they have. Fortunately football is still alive and well in this town, and it is keeping it alive like it has for years... unfortunately the A.D. and other admin have made it their mission to destroy that too.

[proud to be]

The Rec Board lets go the director of operations at The Legends. Now that the course is in the best shape it has been in in 5 years, they let the guy go.
I don't get it.

Best shape it's been in??????
Have you been in a sandtrap, (I have, lots of times) there's no sand in half of them.........

The greens have poe, (sp..) growing all over them, and some of them looked like a bomb went off in the middle, but at least they filled THOSE holes with sand.....(Look closely at #8 East for instance)


I have hit balls in every conceivable trouble spot on this course.... (believe me)
and there are lots of issues at the Legends.

Fact is.......there is a reason why they are still touting themselves as the 4th best public course in Ohio in 2004........... Where have they been ranked since then????

Don't get me wrong.... I love the layout for the most part, BUT... they blew it when they added the third nine and ripped up the original layout. Since then it's been downhill.

[DAWGH8R]

Just got off the phone with a board member. They eliminated 3 people !!!

[TigerFan2000]

Just got off the phone with a board member. They eliminated 3 people !!!

1. Doug Nist, Park Supt.
2. Craig Immel, Golf Manager
3. Who Else?

[TigerFan2000]

The Rec Board lets go the director of operations at The Legends. Now that the course is in the best shape it has been in in 5 years, they let the guy go.
I don't get it.

Someone has to take the blame for not making $1.5 million per year (unrealistic for a Stark Co. public course). That's what it takes to operate properly and pay the annual debt service. Why the high debt service? Ask the Mayor and certain Council members about the stupid addition of 9 holes and another $4million in debt. Incredible, but it is catching up.

Letting go the director will not solve the financial problems. I hear that the City will have to buy out the pro-shop and pay off a ton of vacation time totaling over $60,000. Isn't that going to make the financial picture worse???

A year from now, it will be a complete mess. Unless proceeds from the sale of Genshaft is plugged into the course coffers.

[Banks]

Ask the Mayor and certain Council members about the stupid addition of 9 holes and another $4million in debt. Incredible, but it is catching up.





That new nine and Immel was the down fall of the Legends.

[proud to be]

A year from now, it will be a complete mess. Unless proceeds from the sale of Genshaft is plugged into the course coffers.

Are you sure that the Genshaft family will approve a sale of that property? Past attempts have been shot down, even though the developers offered to build a 5 field, state of the art facility in it's place. The city can not sell that property without the Genshaft's approval

[TigerFan2000]

That new nine and Immel was the down fall of the Legends.

I agree with the first part of this statement. The fact is, Immel inherited a losing battle. The damage was already done with the new debt for the new 9 holes. The Parks Dept tried to bail it out, but to no avail. Doesn't matter who the leader is at the golf course. The debt has to be reduced for anyone to have a shot at running a successful operation.

Also, the cheapskate discount-coupon golfers in Massillon need to cough up a little more cash if they want this facility to have some success and be first class.

[5starred]

Its all a matter of public record folks, you will read the amount of paid vacation and sick time buy out.
Immel can't have much, he was never there.
Sometimes it cost a little to gain alot. The truth will come out in due time. In the case of Nist,he just did not handle the position well at all. The other guy should learn the golden rule, oh guess he just had his first lesson.
One more thing, do you really think Neil Genshaft was not contacted ? I know for a fact he was. You won't give an inch unless it was your idea !

[Banks]

I agree with the first part of this statement. The fact is, Immel inherited a losing battle. The damage was already done with the new debt for the new 9 holes. The Parks Dept tried to bail it out, but to no avail. Doesn't matter who the leader is at the golf course. The debt has to be reduced for anyone to have a shot at running a successful operation.




Immel must have seen the writing on the wall , after only one week on the job he was applying elsewhere.

[TigerFan2000]

Immel must have seen the writing on the wall , after only one week on the job he was applying elsewhere.

Very true! I feel sorry for whoever the next manager will be. I hope he/she does some homework before coming onboard.

I just hope the mayor isn't being advised by Honey Maier on this. Her past involvement with the golf course is one of the main reasons you see 27 holes and a history of financial trouble, with more looming....

[werperry]

they blew it when they added the third nine and ripped up the original layout. Since then it's been downhill.

A - FRIGGIN - MEN

[Al.]

1. Doug Nist, Park Supt.
2. Craig Immel, Golf Manager
3. Who Else?


Carl Spackler

http://www.moviemarket.co.uk/library/photos/170/170973.jpg

[proud to be]

Not Carl!!!!!!!!!!!! The Cinderella Boy????? What a travesty......

Cannonball comin'.........

[giant lugey]

One problem they have is that they aren't making any money on the food and beverage end. They contracted it out for a mere 10%. The money they could be making in beer sales alone would reduce the debt. Then if they had a nice restaurant they could be making even more money. Why they contracted that end of the business out is beyond me.
Go out to The Quarrey some evening for dinner and see how much they are bringing in.
The city screwed this up big time.

[Banks]

One problem they have is that they aren't making any money on the food and beverage end. They contracted it out for a mere 10%. The money they could be making in beer sales alone would reduce the debt.

Really 10% ?
Who was behind that one?

[DragonTigerNemesis]

One problem they have is that they aren't making any money on the food and beverage end. They contracted it out for a mere 10%. The money they could be making in beer sales alone would reduce the debt. Then if they had a nice restaurant they could be making even more money. Why they contracted that end of the business out is beyond me.
Go out to The Quarrey some evening for dinner and see how much they are bringing in.
The city screwed this up big time.

10% of what, and how is it paid?

If the city is actually collecting 10% of gross sales on all beverage, dining and catering revenue, the the city has one of the sweetest deals that I have ever heard of!

I want to know the details before I go off on this subject, but to give you an example, the Federal Government contract with Marriott Corporation to provide food and beverage services to twelve of the House of Representative locations in the DC area is 1.2%.

Someone please enlighten us.

:deal:

[TigerFan2000]

Really 10% ?
Who was behind that one?

The original Legends staff with the mayor's approval. I believe the existing food vendor actually drafted the contract and the city signed away. It is 10% of net, not gross, generated about $20,000 - $25,000 per year....

[The Butler]

I'm an aquaintance of the woman who's husband has that contract. I have heard that is a very sweet deal for the couple. Just think of all of the large banquets that get booked out there, in addition to the normal golf bar and snack business.

[DragonTigerNemesis]

The original Legends staff with the mayor's approval. I believe the existing food vendor actually drafted the contract and the city signed away. It is 10% of net, not gross, generated about $20,000 - $25,000 per year....

Thank you, now I'm clear on who is stupid.
It's us again.

Didn't ANYONE look into this beforehand and discover that such contracts are always either written as a lump sum or percentage of gross sales?

Agreeing to a percentage of net is INSANE business.

When is the contract up?
This needs to have a light shown on it.

It smells like the Hampton, which IMO, smells even worse that the parking lot at Applebee's.

:doh:

[giant lugey]

If 10% of Net is $20,000 - $25,000, then the city could be making $200,000 -$250,000 if they ran it and kept 100% of the profit.

[DragonTigerNemesis]

If 10% of Net is $20,000 - $25,000, then the city could be making $200,000 -$250,000 if they ran it and kept 100% of the profit.


That is not necessarily true, and in fact, unlikely.

Are P&R employees union?
If so, we would likely have to pay union scale to dishwashers.

Even if they are not union, we would have to extend all city employee benefits packages to them; which I am sure are much more costly than what the current contractors are offering their people.

Also, our P&R department is not in the food service business, and we would spend a lot of money hiring and training employees in an unfamiliar business.

The key question is: Are they operators drawing a salary and deducting that from profits before paying the percentage on net, or are they not allowed to draw a salary?
That makes all the difference in the world in this situation, and it is why the contract should have been written as a percentage of gross, not net.

For instance, if I am the operator and I see that I'm making too much profit, I just hire my wife or an adult child and pay them a high salary for some position like "bookkeeper".

:kungfu:

[section3]

go to the cities web site and read the mayors monthly report june 2007. he stated the city needs to take over the food concessions. also that they need to hire a marketing director for the golf course. the numbers were down once again. what is interesting though is if you read the golf report some months its reported as a growth over the previous year, but when you check the report for the previous year its actually a decline. fuzzy math?? i still find it hard to believe that the food concessions at a seasonal establishment profited $250,000.

[Paul Brown]

Does anyone have an idea of what they charge for an outing there? I need to get one set up for next year. I can always call but if anyone knew off the top of their head it'd be nice.

[MTiger]

That is not necessarily true, and in fact, unlikely.

Are P&R employees union?
If so, we would likely have to pay union scale to dishwashers.

Even if they are not union, we would have to extend all city employee benefits packages to them; which I am sure are much more costly than what the current contractors are offering their people.

:kungfu:

Full-time P&R employees were unionized when I worked there part-time during my summers home from college.

[SternRulz]

Are you sure that the Genshaft family will approve a sale of that property? Past attempts have been shot down, even though the developers offered to build a 5 field, state of the art facility in it's place. The city can not sell that property without the Genshaft's approval

It's my understanding from a good source that the Genshaft family has no intentions of selling.

[TigerFan2000]

It's my understanding from a good source that the Genshaft family has no intentions of selling.

How can they sell what they don't own. Check the records. The property belongs to the City. Yes there may be some deed restrictions, but the City owns the land! Your source isn't that resourceful...lol

[TigerFan2000]

That is not necessarily true, and in fact, unlikely.

Are P&R employees union?
If so, we would likely have to pay union scale to dishwashers.

Even if they are not union, we would have to extend all city employee benefits packages to them; which I am sure are much more costly than what the current contractors are offering their people.

Also, our P&R department is not in the food service business, and we would spend a lot of money hiring and training employees in an unfamiliar business.

The key question is: Are they operators drawing a salary and deducting that from profits before paying the percentage on net, or are they not allowed to draw a salary?
That makes all the difference in the world in this situation, and it is why the contract should have been written as a percentage of gross, not net.

For instance, if I am the operator and I see that I'm making too much profit, I just hire my wife or an adult child and pay them a high salary for some position like "bookkeeper".

:kungfu:

If the City ran the food operations the margin would be smaller, because we all know it always costs government more to get things done. However, most of the employees could be seasonal PT staff without benefits, like other P&R operations, so the salary costs wouldn't be as much as you think. You don't need unionized dishwashers. A 16 year old making $6.85/hour will do just fine. No part-time staff receive benefits or are unionized.

Many municipalities run their own food & beverage operations. Doesn't seem like rocket science to me. After all, most of the F&B employees now are part-time youngsters....

[massillon catholic]

It's my understanding from a good source that the Genshaft family has no intentions of selling.

See my previous post. Posession is 9/10th of the law and a recorded deed is 10/10ths of the law

[section3]

the city couldn't sell the hospital for 60 million because of the way the deed was written, but was able to trade it for 5 years rent free for the health dept.

[massillon catholic]

the city couldn't sell the hospital for 60 million because of the way the deed was written, but was able to trade it for 5 years rent free for the health dept.


Maybe so, but my point was that the city owns it. You can't build a swimming pool or put a fence up in your yard where my Dad lives, but he still owns the property and doesn't need permission to sell it.

[5starred]

I find it rather enjoyable to read these threads and see how mutate. From the golf course to massillon city hospital with a spattering of so called Genshaft facts. And believe it or not theres always a mix of truth and fiction.
Yes the Mayor spoke to Niel Genshaft, his main concern is that this uncle be remembered for his community involvement.
The hospital, was written by savvy att. Something you don't find much of nowwa days. The Pocock family just wanted Massillon to have a hospital.
The golf course ? Well I guess if your a golfer you love the idea of a city course. And if your not, its a waste of money. I must admit there are more that are NOT golfers, good to know not everyone chases a little white ball around the grass.
The most amazing thing in this whole golf course debacle is that the guy who is being nailed to the wall is the same guy who was never, I said never pro golf course. When Mark VanVooris a councilman went to city council with the proposed golf course Mayor Cicchinelli, hyperventilated . Council proceeded without his blessings. Yes folks that does happen.
The food and beverage contract was written by the food service owners lawyer as per request of the cities own law director and recommended for passage by John Ferrero the then law director, told you there are not many lawyers with savvy
This too shall pass
There will be more retail, more rec, more industry and will wait for the next thing to bellyache about........life in middle america ya gotta love it.

[TigerFan2000]

I find it rather enjoyable to read these threads and see how mutate. From the golf course to massillon city hospital with a spattering of so called Genshaft facts. And believe it or not theres always a mix of truth and fiction.
Yes the Mayor spoke to Niel Genshaft, his main concern is that this uncle be remembered for his community involvement.
The hospital, was written by savvy att. Something you don't find much of nowwa days. The Pocock family just wanted Massillon to have a hospital.
The golf course ? Well I guess if your a golfer you love the idea of a city course. And if your not, its a waste of money. I must admit there are more that are NOT golfers, good to know not everyone chases a little white ball around the grass.
The most amazing thing in this whole golf course debacle is that the guy who is being nailed to the wall is the same guy who was never, I said never pro golf course. When Mark VanVooris a councilman went to city council with the proposed golf course Mayor Cicchinelli, hyperventilated . Council proceeded without his blessings. Yes folks that does happen.
The food and beverage contract was written by the food service owners lawyer as per request of the cities own law director and recommended for passage by John Ferrero the then law director, told you there are not many lawyers with savvy
This too shall pass
There will be more retail, more rec, more industry and will wait for the next thing to bellyache about........life in middle america ya gotta love it.

The Law Director only reviewed the agreement for legal form and sufficiency. The terms and conditions were the responsibility of the Mayor and Council.

On another note, rumor has it that the new parks and rec director will be running the golf course. Who's going to be running the parks??

[proud to be]

It's my understanding from a good source that the Genshaft family has no intentions of selling.


That's what I understand as well. In fact, I was told that Neal Genshaft was very unhappy when this story broke in the newspaper. The land where Genshaft sits was deeded to the city with the stipulation that sale required the Genshaft family's approval. As far as I know, they have no intention of giving that, at any cost.

[Spize]

I love that people in Massillon piss and moan about all this crap that the elected officials and other public officials in the city pull all the time, all the money wasted, all the sweetheart deals, the backroom meetings, the favored contractors/realtors, the horrible developement deals (Hampton), waste grant money (The Arena)(Don't forget we blew over $1 Millon there)....

Then people turn around and vote these bufoons back in because they have "experience" ... unfortunately people don't think. "Oh, their experience is in screwing things up." I will give it to the politicians that have been around a while in Massillon... they sure can sell and polish these turds, and I am not talking about the ones you smell if you shop at walmart.

[5starred]

About the Law Director's review of the contract for food service at the Legends. It is the express responsibility of the law office to prepare all contracts, ordinances and resolutions. Now if they do there job or not is another question.
It is no different than you hiring a attorney to protect your interest, would you go back to the guy who told you the form of a contract is good ? I would hope to h@#$ that would not happen.
The Mayor does NOT approve contracts city council does.
As a matter of fact remember there is three branches of government.
Genshaft Park land was donated to the city with only one requirement, it be named Genshaft, period the end. Again the Mayor spoke to Niel more than once and all is well. He was aware of the newspaper article before its publication.
Don't let some try and use the smoke and mirror tricks. It is what it is.....

[5starred]

Sprize,
Takes one to know one

[TigerFan2000]

About the Law Director's review of the contract for food service at the Legends. It is the express responsibility of the law office to prepare all contracts, ordinances and resolutions. Now if they do there job or not is another question.
It is no different than you hiring a attorney to protect your interest, would you go back to the guy who told you the form of a contract is good ? I would hope to h@#$ that would not happen.
The Mayor does NOT approve contracts city council does.
As a matter of fact remember there is three branches of government.
Genshaft Park land was donated to the city with only one requirement, it be named Genshaft, period the end. Again the Mayor spoke to Niel more than once and all is well. He was aware of the newspaper article before its publication.
Don't let some try and use the smoke and mirror tricks. It is what it is.....

Yes, the Law Dept prepares the agreements (or in the case of Club Legends reviewed someone else's agreement), but it is supposed to be done in conjunction with the administration. Red flags should have been raised for a 20 year agreement, with no opt out provision, but the admin should have raised it!

Also, last time I checked the Mayor signs off on all legislation recommendations. It doesn't get to Council without his approval, unless a Council member brings it up. The latter did not happen...

[5starred]

If you want to get into the nuts and bolts of this very one sided lease, the way it goes is that it is a 15 yr agreement with a option of 5 more yrs. It goes like this, in 2009 the city can opt to exercise said option. Which lets hope to the heavens a better plan is in the wings.
Yes you are correct about the Mayor signing off on requests, before the law director ever sees it,however that does not let the law director off the hook. He there to protect the city from bad decisions , ord. resolutions and contract.
I guess if we would have a law director who worked more than 5 or 6 hours a week that could make a difference
All in all it was a big big blunder which they have to live with for 2 more yrs

[section3]

which law director are you blaming for this and which one only works 5 to 6 hrs a week?? john or perry?? your previous post stated john approved this which would mean perry inherited it. also, the concessions is not going to save the golf course, it may help but by no means will it bail it out of the mess its in. go back through the years on the mayors monthly reports, the course has been going down hill for quite some time. if i owned a business that lost money consistantly for years, i wouldn't last very long.

[Banks]

If you want to get into the nuts and bolts of this very one sided lease, the way it goes is that it is a 15 yr agreement with a option of 5 more yrs. It goes like this, in 2009 the city can opt to exercise said option. Which lets hope to the heavens a better plan is in the wings.
Yes you are correct about the Mayor signing off on requests, before the law director ever sees it,however that does not let the law director off the hook. He there to protect the city from bad decisions , ord. resolutions and contract.
I guess if we would have a law director who worked more than 5 or 6 hours a week that could make a difference
All in all it was a big big blunder which they have to live with for 2 more yrs

Maybe the law director was upset his brother in law didn't get the gig!

[tiger embalmer]

Welcome to Massillon, take a look around, take a sniff at wal-mart, or try to get a decent price on land that the city bought overpriced, sold underpriced, and Deville is selling at way overpriced. Then ask yourself why everyone in Massillon is looking for a job or not happy with the crap job that barely pays over minimum wage that they have. Fortunately football is still alive and well in this town, and it is keeping it alive like it has for years... unfortunately the A.D. and other admin have made it their mission to destroy that too.


Every town has its problems with things and people in it. It should be the duty of everyone who has the ablity to act to do something to make Massillon a better place to live. But is is easier to blame everyone else and do nothing.
I still love Massillon and look forward to moving their once I sell my home in Canton

[5starred]

Banks nailed it
Give that man the prize

[Indiana95]

Let's all hope that the City will learn from past decisions as they move forward. The Legends has great potential and will one day be a great asset to the community.

[Obie Wan]

There is an offer to buy the 17-acre Genshaft Park for $3.4 million. The Legends might be more than 10 times as large (the average 18-hole course is 150-200 acres). The debt service on the Legends is $7 million(?).

What am I missing here?

[Tiger54]

That new nine and Immel was the down fall of the Legends.
Yes, do you remember the kind of salary that was offered to Mr. Immel when they brought him to Massillon. That was a joke from the very beginning.

[Banks]

Banks nailed it
Give that man the prize


Can I double or nothing that prize?

One person on here blamed Helen Maier for the new nine. However it was Marty that wanted the new 9 and it was MARTY that pushed it though, lets not forget that a rec. board member bought up some of the land and the city had to buy it from the rec board member ( he may not have been on the board then but he is now as well as the school board ). And for the record I believe that Maier was against the 9 and I know LINDA was against it.