Ciccinelli wants to sell Genshaft

[massillon catholic]

Mayor Ciccinelli wants to sell Genshaft Park for 3.4 million to a developer from Cleveland. The land is appraised at 1.9 million, but the developer is willing to over-pay since the land wasn't for sale.

[werperry]

...is that a problem?

[massillon catholic]

...is that a problem?

Not to me. I was just posting the latest news. Personally, I think if you can get 3.4 million for something thats worth 1.9 million and they are going to build busines that will bring jobs, he cant' go wrong. IMO.

[werperry]

no kidding... haha :laughing:

[austinsm11]

Any idea what they planning on using the land for?

[President skroob]

They paved paradise to put up a parking lot!--Joni mitchell :wink:

[massillon catholic]

Any idea what they planning on using the land for?


The developers won't say at this point other than they have plans. I'm assuming it will be retail stores and they don't want to name the stores.

[Tiger2001]

but where will I play softball??!!

[massillon catholic]

but where will I play softball??!!


They will build new fields off of 241.

[Obie Wan]

If one guy will pay $3.4 millon, maybe a second guy will as well. It would behoove the city to find out what will happen to the land after it's sold before agreeing to the sale.

[DAWGH8R]

Maybe a CASINO !!!

[CarlE]

If one guy will pay $3.4 millon, maybe a second guy will as well. It would behoove the city to find out what will happen to the land after it's sold before agreeing to the sale.

Take the money, take the money, TAKE THE MONEY. Similar situation down here a couple of years ago. Our homeowners association discovered a law that says we owned land under water of some docks that a condo development wanted to buy. They offered a sum of money, we were looking for a mill and a half and kept hard-balling. Ends up they walk, we end up with well, land under water and the condo developer that came in afterwards went bust. TAKE THE MONEY.

As far as where to play softball, with $3.4 million they'll make sure you guys still have your adult playground somewhere.

[5starred]

I have to believe the Mayor has checked this group out more than one way.
Meet them at the bank and let the building begin.

[The Butler]

Cicchinelli said money from the sale would help relocate the softball complex from Genshaft to Community Park off Finefrock Road SW.

A preliminary estimate to relocate ranges from $700,000 to $800,000, he said.

Community Park would then be renamed Genshaft, Cicchinelli said.

About $400,000 of the sale price would go into economic development for future projects. The rest of the money - roughly $2.2 million - would be put back into the parks and recreation department.

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=9&ID=368980&r=9&subCategoryID=

[Kamd50]

Where is there room out there for additional ballfields? Is there adjacent land to Community Park that belongs to the city that isn't developed yet?

[austinsm11]

Maybe a CASINO !!!

I had a feeling you might say that. LOL. Of course you would be too spoiled from the Vegas casinos to really appreciate it then.

[austinsm11]

About $400,000 of the sale price would go into economic development for future projects. The rest of the money - roughly $2.2 million - would be put back into the parks and recreation department.

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=9&ID=368980&r=9&subCategoryID=

Wouldn't it be better to have more going to economic development and less to the parks and rec. department?

[Kamd50]

Speaking of the parks and rec dept., whatever happened to them supposedly building a new skate park for the kids of this town? Does anyone know whatever became of that situation?

[CarlE]

Wouldn't it be better to have more going to economic development and less to the parks and rec. department?

I was thinking the same thing. It seems like an awfully big windfall to just go to parks and recreation. Seems they should really look at where it's best spent.

[austinsm11]

If a majority of the money was spent on economic development and Massillon can bring more jobs to the city, wouldn't that also help bring in taxes which would help the parks and rec. department and create more of a continuous stream of money for them?

[CarlE]

If a majority of the money was spent on economic development and Massillon can bring more jobs to the city, wouldn't that also help bring in taxes which would help the parks and rec. department and create more of a continuous stream of money for them?

I THINK we're saying the same thing although your replies are MUCH more eloquent than mine. I'm still pissed that I have to take out the garbage after Fed games next year.

[austinsm11]

I THINK we're saying the same thing although your replies are MUCH more eloquent than mine. I'm still pissed that I have to take out the garbage after Fed games next year.

Yeah. What will the parks and rec. department do with all that money?

If you get the garbage, I'll wipe down all the counters at the concession stand. Anyone good with a mop?

[TigerFan2000]

Yeah. What will the parks and rec. department do with all that money?

If you get the garbage, I'll wipe down all the counters at the concession stand. Anyone good with a mop?

I'll tell you why the money should go to parks and rec. Most of it should be used to pay down the riduculous among of debt that the Legends has. Remember, when the Mayor and Council pushed for the expansion to 27 holes, doubling the debt service? Well, the half baked (if even baked at all) business plan never materialized. Public golf is declining and people in Stark County, much less Massillon, arn't playing enough rounds.

How could anyone believe that 9 more holes would be able to produce enough new revenue to cover the payment of a doubled debt service? This major mistake needs to be exposed. But, for now, use this money to help with that issue!

[Paul Brown]

Not to mention the third nine ruined a nice 18 hole layout and many wont play there now b/c of it.

[TigerFan2000]

Not to mention the third nine ruined a nice 18 hole layout and many wont play there now b/c of it.

I agree, but what are their alternatives. The Elms (Goat Farm) Country Club? Or the Lions Den?

The Legends is still a nice layout and the conditions are superb, considering the operating funds. Too many Massillions keep using the excuse of "it being ruined by the 3rd nine" or "it's Cicchinelli's course" so I won't play there. If your a true golfer, it's a quality experience...IMO

It financial situation is a whole other matter, that is laced with politics and bad decision making by the mayor and council.

[Indiana95]

Where is there room out there for additional ballfields? Is there adjacent land to Community Park that belongs to the city that isn't developed yet?

There is still some 20 acres of untouched parkland available at Community Park. All of the property south of the soccer field is available. This would be a great site for a first class complex, with direct access from 241.

[massillon catholic]

Not to mention the third nine ruined a nice 18 hole layout and many wont play there now b/c of it.

IMO, They should eliminate the 3rd nine and build more houes on the course. Take the best 18 holes and make a good course.

[Kamd50]

Thanks, Indiana95. it's kind of funny that I had to get that information from someone living clear down in Florida, LOL!

[Paul Brown]

I agree, but what are their alternatives. The Elms (Goat Farm) Country Club? Or the Lions Den?

The Legends is still a nice layout and the conditions are superb, considering the operating funds. Too many Massillions keep using the excuse of "it being ruined by the 3rd nine" or "it's Cicchinelli's course" so I won't play there. If your a true golfer, it's a quality experience...IMO

It financial situation is a whole other matter, that is laced with politics and bad decision making by the mayor and council.


theres hundreds of golf courses in a half hour radius that many play instead.

I haven't played the legends since early summer but it was beat up and far from superb condition.

[massillon catholic]

theres hundreds of golf courses in a half hour radius that many play instead.

I haven't played the legends since early summer but it was beat up and far from superb condition.

Not to mention that these hundreds of courses are generally cheaper to play!

[Paul Brown]

Not to mention that these hundreds of courses are generally cheaper to play!

No kidding. And the ELMS!! they should be ashamed charging what they do on that track.

[massillon catholic]

No kidding. And the ELMS!! they should be ashamed charging what they do on that track.


Haven't played there this year. Zoar is like 27 bucks and in great shape. Since Larry died they have made the course a little tougher with harder pin placements and added 75 yards to the blue tees on # ten. PB, did you play in the Tigertown?

[austinsm11]

I'll tell you why the money should go to parks and rec. Most of it should be used to pay down the riduculous among of debt that the Legends has. Remember, when the Mayor and Council pushed for the expansion to 27 holes, doubling the debt service? Well, the half baked (if even baked at all) business plan never materialized. Public golf is declining and people in Stark County, much less Massillon, arn't playing enough rounds.



Good point. Anyone know how much is owed?

[Obie Wan]

I have to believe the Mayor has checked this group out more than one way.
Based on what? Based on the Arena? Based on the Hampton? Based on the sewage treatment plant? Based on the $3 million that was spent to close the Tremont viaduct? If I had to believe anything, I'd believe that I needed to see some concrete evidence of diligence.

And if he has checked them out, why no disclosure of their plans for the site? I realize that the first reaction is to take the money; that may still be the best course. However, if the new development is going to be another Jackson-type strip mall complex that drains business away from downtown and hires predominately minimum-wage workers, we should think carefully about the long-term effect on the city's economic health. If it's a technology center that might attract well-paying jobs, then it's a different matter entirely.

And regarding the Legends: sell it, too.

[Paul Brown]

Haven't played there this year. Zoar is like 27 bucks and in great shape. Since Larry died they have made the course a little tougher with harder pin placements and added 75 yards to the blue tees on # ten. PB, did you play in the Tigertown?

No, the last tourney I played in was a pro-am at Northstar down outside of columbus over the 4th of July weekend.

[massillon catholic]

Based on what? Based on the Arena? Based on the Hampton? Based on the sewage treatment plant? Based on the $3 million that was spent to close the Tremont viaduct? If I had to believe anything, I'd believe that I needed to see some concrete evidence of diligence.

And if he has checked them out, why no disclosure of their plans for the site? I realize that the first reaction is to take the money; that may still be the best course. However, if the new development is going to be another Jackson-type strip mall complex that drains business away from downtown and hires predominately minimum-wage workers, we should think carefully about the long-term effect on the city's economic health. If it's a technology center that might attract well-paying jobs, then it's a different matter entirely.

And regarding the Legends: sell it, too.


OW: First, I agree with sell Legends. The city has no business attempting to run a golf course. Second, I don't think that the downtown actually employs that many people and they certainly aren't well-paying jobs. I guess my point is, is if Massillon can get more business at the Genshaft site even if it is majority minimum wage jobs won't that increase the tax base and still be better for the city?

[massillon catholic]

No, the last tourney I played in was a pro-am at Northstar down outside of columbus over the 4th of July weekend.

Just wondered. I had heard that the course was in good shape, but I haven't played it to verify this nor do I know what the green fees are.

[Paul Brown]

I have a league there mondays and the course was the same the week of the tigertown open as always.

[Spize]

Take the money, make a better park somewhere else. Maybe uses the money to help make it so the other areas of the city that won't develop because of the stench of a sewer plant that they won't fix can finally get the stench fixed?

Take the money, but make sure to have a clause where they cannot use the land or tear down the fields until they replacement fields have been built.

[jobdone]

The park was a gift from the Genshaft Family. Some one better check with them.

[massillon catholic]

The park was a gift from the Genshaft Family. Some one better check with them.


isn't possession 9/10th's of the law?

[obie7661]

The park was a gift from the Genshaft Family. Some one better check with them.

Maybe they have.

[longtimefirsttime]

If it's a technology center that might attract well-paying jobs, then it's a different matter entirely.


I would support this 100%. But as you mentioned, there have been no publicly released information as to what would go there. I would like to hear more details.

[arizona]

The Genshaft family has been consulted and agrees with the plan. The entire community park complex will be renamed Genshaft Community Park, and will feature a plaque with some biographical information.

The new adult softball facilities will be paid for from sale proceeds and will be in place before any construction at Genshaft would occur, so there will be no disruption to the ballers.

The developer has very solid plans for the site but for obvious business reasons cannot yet disclose the names of the prospective tenants.

Nearly half a million dollars will be placed in the city's economic development fund to attract new and maintown existing employers.

The parks & rec department can use the blance of the money to ease the heavy load of debt from the Legends. The golf course is nearly unmarketable by the way, due to that massive debt. In the long run, when the debt is paid, the golf course will generate profit for years to come. I believe the projections initially were for positive cash flow after 10 years. The startup of the course went better than anyone could gave expected, but the rapid addition of nine more holes was handled very clumsily and has caused most of the financial and esthetic problems there.

I was told that most council people took the hint that this was very preliminary info and did not press for specific answers at this point. I get the impression that this is a public trial balloon to gauge public opinion before proceeding. The mayor told them that details would be forthcoming as they developed, and that council would be kept in the loop.

Only one council person asked any question at all, and that was a very foolish one pointing out the difference between the appraised value and the offer by the developer. Supposedly,everyone held their breath, waiting for a suggestion that the city was getting too much for the land and should tke less!

All-in-all, it sounds like a fantastic deal for the city. I'd jump on it immediately.

[Benchboss1]

Ya gotta take the money!! Take it and run!!

[massillon catholic]

Ya gotta take the money!! Take it and run!!

Before they change their minds!

[The Butler]

Ya gotta take the money!! Take it and run!!

The city just can't sell the land without jumping through some hoops. For the city to do it legally, they would have to advertise and accept bids on the land. Just as they would do with a used dump truck. They can however transfer the land to an entity such as the Massillon Development Foundation and they can sell it.

I wonder if the city made an offer to FedEx, which is going to build a 100,000 square foot distribution center in Jackson Township. Also, is Menard's still planning on building in the 21/30 area?

[longtimefirsttime]

Also, is Menard's still planning on building in the 21/30 area?

I was just wondering that the other day. It's been over a year since we heard they were coming to town.

[section3]

hopefully this deal comes together and hopefully now the powers that be will take this as a lesson that if a developer wants the land they will pay for it and the city does not have to buy land from businesses, pay to move the business then sell the land to a developer friend for pennies on the dollar and incure all that debt. phase I, II, III. build the fields at ohio drilling and bring all those people to downtown!!!

[TigerFan2000]

OW: First, I agree with sell Legends. The city has no business attempting to run a golf course.

Sell it? Good luck finding a buyer who will offer enough to pay down the debt....near $7 million!! There's plenty of virgin land in the Massillon area for cheap.

Municipal courses can and are run very successfully in many communities all across the country. You have to have a good plan and stick with it. Adding 9 holes, because things were going well, is not sound decision making. It has bitten massillon in the butt!

[5starred]

I called the Indy and spoke to the reporter who wrote the article on Genshaft Park. I asked if there was any plan talked about for this location. He stated there is to be businesses interested that are national chains. When asked why the whole story was not told he stated that this is only one story of several he had to cover, only so much space. I thanked him for his time and told him I understand the parking bad is a much bigger story.........
What a rag

[gotigers1]

City council voted tonight to sell the ballfields for 3.4 million.

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=374219&Category=9&subCategoryID=0

[obie7661]

Developer remains mum on Genshaft Park tenants

http://www.indeonline.com/index.php?ID=22931&r=0&Category=

[Obie Wan]

The end of that article is also very telling:

"Mayor Frank Cicchinelli said the city has hired legal counsel to help it break a contract with the U.S. Department of the Interior and the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. The federal government gave the city $80,000 for the development of the park in the early 1980s under the condition the park always be used for recreational purposes."

Dubious ethics aside, anyone want to take odds on how much we're going to end up paying for that grant?