New graduation test takes toll on Ohio seniors

[obie7661]

http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/2007/05/29/z-apoh_graduationtest_0526.ART_ART_05-29-07_B7_FJ6RP0H.html

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

obie7661,

I feel bad for the seniors who won't be graduating. Truthfully, I never really cared about the testing. It's all bull. I wonder if there are states other than Ohio that require testing.

[TigerCoach]

What is the purpose of getting grades if all that matters is taking & passing this graduation test?

[longtimefirsttime]

I know we a few educators here. How much classroom time is solely devoted to passing the proficiency tests?

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

longtimefirsttime,

I am sure teachers are doing all they can to help students pass the OGT. But for what I know, that test is hard.

[SuperBran]

What is the purpose of getting grades if all that matters is taking & passing this graduation test?

grades contribute to which schools you get accepted to.

[SuperBran]

But for what I know, that test is hard.

life is even harder.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

SuperBran,

Tell me about it. I've experienced my share of great times and hardships the last two years.

[monte81]

What is the purpose of getting grades if all that matters is taking & passing this graduation test?

I was thinking the same thing TC because down here in Columbus students with 3.5-4.0 Gpa's are not graduating. If you take a class for 4 quarters and have a final exam that should be enough unless the State of Ohio figures the schools may not be doing a great job of educating the students. It seems to me if you are proficient enough to pass the class that a student should pass the test. Teach a entire year for 1 test seems to be pretty poor education tactics IMO. What is exactly on the test? Is it similar to the ACT/SAT? College entrance exams are based off the overall Core GPA plus score and it seems Ohio could use a better way to determine passing levels--if the test is not fair. It can't be harder than the ACT/SAT so what is really going on in our educational system??

[TigerCoach]

grades contribute to which schools you get accepted to.

I understand that concept, of course, but what motivation is it for the "average student" who may not be going to college, or has no desire to attend college. I understand getting into most colleges is competitive, so shouldn't there be a waiver, or some exemptions to this OGT if your a good student for 4 years? I'm curious how many high school students have a GPA > 3.0 that aren't graduating because of this test?

I talk to some teachers who tell me they spend a large majority of their time teaching kids how to pass proficiency tests, versus teaching them how to learn. When those kids get to college, it won't matter how they did in high school because all they did was learn to take the tests.

[Kamd50]

I understand that concept, of course, but what motivation is it for the "average student" who may not be going to college, or has no desire to attend college. I understand getting into most colleges is competitive, so shouldn't there be a waiver, or some exemptions to this OGT if your a good student for 4 years? I'm curious how many high school students have a GPA > 3.0 that aren't graduating because of this test?

I talk to some teachers who tell me they spend a large majority of their time teaching kids how to pass proficiency tests, versus teaching them how to learn. When those kids get to college, it won't matter how they did in high school because all they did was learn to take the tests.

Boy, you hear this over and over again. A lot of teachers do not like these tests for that very reason. I talked to someone who had close communication with the kids that are not going to be allowed to graduate from Massillon. She said it was very sad. That were just some kids who could not pass one particular test for one reason or another. One only missed a passing grade by 2 points and most of the kids already had their caps and gowns of course. And of course there were the few that fall into the " I don't care category". She said there were a lot of tears shed. There are kids that have good attendance all 4 yrs, participated in multiple activities, good (as they could be) students, who are falling in between the cracks with this system, and are devastated.

Unfair as it is, we are not all born equal in certain areas and those kids suffer.

Another teacher told me that they thought that some school districts/states allowed the kids to still participate in the ceremony and receive some type of participation certificate or something; but not here.

Massillon has 10 kids that won't get to walk.
Canton City schools have approx. 60
Akron City Schools have approx. 200

[Obie Wan]

I am sure teachers are doing all they can to help students pass the OGT. But for what I know, that test is hard.

So what? A diploma is supposed to indicate a certain standard of knowledge. It is not, as it is often viewed to be, merely an award for 12 years of attendance. One of the big problems with education in this country is the increasing tendency to subjugate accomplishment to illusion.

Unfair as it is, we are not all born equal in certain areas and those kids suffer.
No. That is not at all "unfair". There is nothing unjust when a slow kid doesn't win the race. In fact, one might well argue that it is necessary - that it is, is a truly fair world, the only way it can be.

BTW, a lot of teachers don't like the test because it also tends to measure how well they do their jobs. :wink: Accountability isn't real big in some circles.

[orangeblood]

BTW, a lot of teachers don't like the test because it also tends to measure how well they do their jobs. :wink: Accountability isn't real big in some circles.

You only wish that was true, so you could get out of paying them for their work with your solid gold wallet. Stereotypical Repub attitude.:thumbsdown:

[Obie Wan]

Stereotypical Repub attitude.
You don't even know what the word "stereotypical" means, do you? Because if you do, it's doubtful you would have used it as you did.

OTOH, this is a typical response from you - a personal comment that is short of substance, devoid of analysis, and completely without any relevance to the subject under discussion.

And you wonder why we fear for the education of our children. Perhaps it's because many of those teaching our children would be hard-pressed to pass these same tests?

[Kamd50]

You seem to lack some real compassion here, OW, for those who aren't as blessed in the academic comprehension area, as you may yourself be. There are some kids that no matter how hard they try, how hard they study, just do not have a certain apptitude for certain things.. It is not that they don't want it or that they don't try. You should talk to the woman that I spoke with. You cannot put everyone into nice neat little boxes and judge them according to your own personal beliefs or accessment of the situation. That is even more unfair.

[Kamd50]

There may be many adults on here as well who would be hard pressed to pass some of these very same tests, and yet they are educated, intelligent, successful human beings.

Being able to drill your students for tests is in no way indicitive of being a good teacher. You'd be surprised at the huge amount of our children's textbooks are never even looked at or gone over in the course of a year due to having to prepare these kids for these tests.

[austinsm11]

BTW, a lot of teachers don't like the test because it also tends to measure how well they do their jobs. :wink: Accountability isn't real big in some circles.

If people only knew what teachers have to deal with on a daily basis, they may have a better understanding. While I agree that there are subpar teachers, try teaching students of families who don't value education...students who are thrown into your class after being taken from social services in the middle of the night because dad was prostituting them out....10 and 11 year olds who are raising their younger siblings....students out all night selling drugs....students being raped by their uncle...etc., etc., etc.

Teachers don't mind being held accountable, but how do you judge an outstanding teacher in Canton City or Massillon whose students score lower on tests than a teacher from Jackson, for example?

People all to often compare schools to business. If it were a business, would employees be kept with 50% attendance rates? What about if they are known to be on drugs? Businesses do not try to make their product with damaged goods. They wouldn't keep employees who are keeping other employees from learning.

[austinsm11]

obie7661,

I feel bad for the seniors who won't be graduating. Truthfully, I never really cared about the testing. It's all bull. I wonder if there are states other than Ohio that require testing.

Under NCLB, try every state accepting federal funding. I think there are only 1-2 who aren't.


Monte, if a student has a 3.5-4.0 and is not passing, that should tell you about how easy grades are being handed out at these schools.


OW, you make good points about a high school diploma. A college wouldn't hand out a diploma to someone just for attendance. That being said, for a student to not graduate based on a test is somewhat sad. That is what portfolios, reports, hands-on projects are also for. Not everyone is a good test taker. I guarantee you that some students passing the OGT are lucky at guessing and pass. Students who can't even multiply are passing tests down here.

Kamd, testing down here is so serious that we have to basically have parents in the room to make sure kids and teachers don't cheat. Kids throw up on tests due to stress and it has to be sealed in a plastic bag and sent to the state department so that test security isn't compromised. These tests take away all creativity in the classroom. Teachers have no time for extension projects. The curriculum is a mile wide and an inch deep.

TC, as for your comment about grades....students are realizing that in many districts the test is all that matters. They figure that they can slack off all year and pass a test. Lack of effort leads to poor grades and lack of learning which leads many to not pass the test. Of course a few get lucky and do pass and others see this and imitate this behavior the next school only to fail the test.

[Obie Wan]

You seem to lack some real compassion here, OW, for those who aren't as blessed in the academic comprehension area, as you may yourself be. There are some kids that no matter how hard they try, how hard they study, just do not have a certain apptitude for certain things.. It is not that they don't want it or that they don't try. You should talk to the woman that I spoke with. You cannot put everyone into nice neat little boxes and judge them according to your own personal beliefs or accessment of the situation. That is even more unfair.

Let's be blunt: some people are just stupid. It's a fact of life. You can come up with all the euphemisms you want, but you can't change the underlying truth. You don't always get what you want, and the slow kid doesn't always get a medal just because he ran hard. Our schools are no place for a Special Olympics mentality.

[austinsm11]

Let's be blunt: some people are just stupid. It's a fact of life. You can come up with all the euphemisms you want, but you can't change the underlying truth. You don't always get what you want, and the slow kid doesn't always get a medal just because he ran hard. Our schools are no place for a Special Olympics mentality.

Very true OW. Here is my problem. Not everyone is cut out to be an athlete. Do we choose who is on the football team (who passes the test) based on how far each athlete can throw the ball (1 test)? Or do we look at speed, strength, tackling, etc.? If a student does not show mastery of 10th grade concepts if judged on tests, portfolios, experiments, etc., then do not let them graduate. But please don't make the determination based on 1 test.

[Banks]

You know what else takes it toll ?

Missing over 30 days of school after football season.

[orangeblood]

And you wonder why we fear for the education of our children.

"We?" From what I have read here, it appears to be mainly "you."

And, I might add, I will put my education and comprehension skills up against you any day of the week.

I really like the signature line you have chosen in your posting here. It seems to fit perfectly.

[orangeblood]

Let's be blunt: some people are just stupid. It's a fact of life.

If our resident education expert on the local internet followed THIS attitude in a real classroom; he would not last a day and a half. Real teachers have to accept all kids where they happen to be, and take them as far as humanly possible during the year.:oops2:

[Kamd50]

How is it fair to not let a kid who has passed their highschool classes and met all the attendance requirements throughout their stay, to not graduate based soley on an outside test? We are not talking about graduating simply because they "showed up". Some of these kids have had to face struggles and handicaps that most of us will never know of. To insinuate that someone doesn't deserve to graduate because they are not as smart as others, is very cruel , imho.

I just cannot believe that comment about our schools not being a place for special olympics mentality. wow, that just blows my mind. Do you suggest there be some special place to shove these kids out of the way of the "normal students" or what? Where is the place for them, if not in the public school system?

Seriously, I would never have an attitude like that towards others who are a little more unfortunate in some circumstances.
If you pass your classes then you should be rewarded with a diploma.

And for the record, I am not talking about the kids who just don't give a crap and could have graduated if they had put some effort into it.

[Kamd50]

You know what else takes it toll ?

Missing over 30 days of school after football season.

If you are talking about a certain star athlete that blew it big time because of his own laziness and lack of priorities, he got what he deserved. I find it totally disgusting that a kid like this can have a free education for the taking, while mine and others will never receive such a break but probably deserve it a thousand times more! How sad is it that these athletes don't learn from the examples of the athletes that have gone before them that screwed up their futures the exact same way?

[Banks]

If you are talking about a certain star athlete that blew it big time because of his own laziness and lack of priorities, he got what he deserved. I find it totally disgusting that a kid like this can have a free education for the taking, while mine and others will never receive such a break but probably deserve it a thousand times more! How sad is it that these athletes don't learn from the examples of the athletes that have gone before them that screwed up their futures the exact same way?

You know these free rides are always a gamble.
In the long run it would hurt others from Massillon on getting full rides to that college makes me ill.

[Banks]

Their are people at the school who let it go .
But I know they got a chewed out .

WOW when was the last time anyone used Chewed OUT. LOL

[austinsm11]

To insinuate that someone doesn't deserve to graduate because they are not as smart as others, is very cruel , imho.



I don't think he meant that one should not graduate because he or she is not as smart as others. I think he meant that there are some that may never achieve a certain level of mastery. A teacher's job is to help students grow as much as possible, but many times (especially due to outside factors) students will not reach the bar set by the state, no matter how good the teacher is. If you take the worst athlete in the school, I doubt a coach could make him or her able to get a hit off a high school pitcher.

It will be interesting what happens in 2014 when under NCLB every student needs to be at grade level. Very realistic.

[Obie Wan]

How is it fair to not let a kid who has passed their highschool classes and met all the attendance requirements throughout their stay, to not graduate based soley on an outside test?
I dunno. Ask a law school grad who flunks the Bar.

[Kamd50]

:ohplease:

[Submariner]

http://www.tribune-chronicle.com/News/articles.asp?articleID=18689

The above web address is discussing the same thing you are discussing on this forum. You can see both sides of the debate, and it is a heated one. Please read this link. It cuts down to the bone when kids are even saying that they just are not good enough. On the other hand; the majority of the kids passed the test, and are walking across the stage tonight to receive their diplomas. I know I did not do well on the SAT test back in the 80's. I went to many prep classes just for it. I thought I would not do well in life.

I went to Kent Trumbull Branch for one year (Mech. Eng. Tech.), earned a 3.5 GPA; transferred to the University of Dayton, graduated and earned a 3.0.

I look back now at the SAT Test, and see it as a tool just for getting into the Notre Dames, Stanfords, Harvards, Yales, and Brown Universities. What I am saying is it does not end your life. A quote from Hall and Oates, "There is Life after High School".

I also found out that employers like students who receive C's and B's. Why? Students should strive for the A. But in the real world, an employer would much rather have an employee that is accustomed to struggling to search to find an answer; rather than cracking under pressure because he or she is accustomed to A's only, and think life is that way.

[monte81]

This does not seem like it is unreasonable for students to be required to pass the test. Check out the bold portion at the end. Sounds like it is ways around the test with alittle effort. This was staight from the www.ode.state.oh.us or google Ohio OGT requirements.

What happens if students don’t pass the tests the first time?

Students who do not pass one or more tests on their first attempt will retake the tests they need to pass during their junior and senior years. Ohio Graduation Tests are administered each fall and spring, with an optional summer administration available within some school districts.

Who develops the OGT tests?

Ohio teachers and other educators, parents, representatives of the business community and other citizens are involved with Ohio Department of Education staff and its testing contractor in developing items for the OGT. The law requiring Ohio Graduation Tests clearly states that parents, classroom teachers, other school personnel and administrators must be involved in developing the tests.

How do we know OGT tests are fair?

A Content Advisory Committee, made up of parents, educators and others, reviews all test questions. Another committee, the Fairness Sensitivity Review Committee, has been trained to review questions to ensure that the questions are not biased in any way. This group, also comprised of parents, educators and others, ensures that test questions are fair and do not promote or inquire as to an individual’s moral or social values or beliefs. Committee members represent a broad base of diverse backgrounds, organizations and school districts. Each of the committees review items prior to field testing and again after field testing where data on the item performance are available. Items must be accepted by both committees prior to the item appearing on any test for which a student is held accountable.

How many questions are on the OGT tests?

OGT tests have approximately 35 multiple-choice questions and up to eight constructed (written) response items.

How long will students have to take the tests?

Students have up to two and one-half hours to take each of the tests.

Are the Ohio Graduation Tests strictly multiple-choice questions?

The OGT includes items other than multiple-choice questions. Students have to write responses to some questions.

Are there other ways for students to receive a diploma if they don’t pass the OGT?

Students in the senior class of 2007 and beyond may graduate and receive a diploma without passing all five tests of the OGT if they meet the following requirements:

Pass four of the five tests and have missed passing the fifth test by no more than 10 scale score points;
Have had a 97 percent attendance rate each of the last four years and must not have had an expulsion in the last four years;
Have a grade point average of 2.5 out of 4.0 in the subject area missed and have completed the curriculum requirement in the subject area missed;
Have participated in any intervention programs offered by the school and must have had a 97 percent attendance rate in any program offered outside the normal school day or year, including those offered by someone other than the school;
Obtain letters of recommendation from each teacher in the subject area not yet passed and the high school principal.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

Kamd50 and Submariner (along with a few others),

That is a painful thought. So many seniors that will not be able to realize their dreams because of a test that is bull.

Personally speaking FAIAP, the Ohio Department of Education or whatever it is had better take a hard and I do mean HARD look (ala boxing referee Richard Steele) at how this test is formulated!

Or better, why don't governor Ted Strickland look into it. That isn't right the fact that so many seniors won't be obtaining their diplomas because of this OGT test.

Just what is the passing score for these OGT tests anyway? I'd like to know.

Kamd50, this question is for you: If you were part of the Ohio Department of Education, how would you look at the testing methods? What would you change if you had the chance?

[shortbev]

(disclaimer: i think it is totally unfair that one's school career comes down to one test...i think it should be an average between that...and grades)

however,what i find interesting is this...people always wait until after the fact to start wondering and complaining... the schools included...

why do parents wait until their child has gone down in flames for the 6th time (at least the number of times a student has to try to pass this test before this point in time)???

why do the schools let things get to this point??? don't they realize that by doing so, they are accomplishing the very opposite of what they have spent trying to do for 13 years of this kid's life...they have failed that kid...

i had two interesting tutoring situations this winter...

the first...a mother called me the friday before midterm exams...her daughter had already managed to fail algebra in the two grading periods up to that point...and somehow...in just a few days...we were supposed to pull her "bacon out of the fire" and have her pass her exams...and pass the last two grading period so she wouldn't have to go to summer school...now, algebra is so very much a building block subject...miss a block here and there, and a child is totally lost...in addition to our 1 hour of tutoring (too little, too late) plus an hour each day with the very teacher who wasn't being able to explain things to her in class...two months later...we surrendered to the fact that she wasn't getting it...no matter how hard we tried...she would have to bite the bullet and go to summer school...talk about pressure on both her and me...we spent that whole time just paddling trying to do homework...not really being able to back things up to the point where she started to struggle and work from there...

2nd situation...senior year...he has managed to not pass his ACT test...and in 2 weeks i am supposed to help he enough to pass it...well, he managed to go from a 16 to a 19...but, dang, man!!! talk about another pressure situation...

i am a prime example of high school not being a true measure of what a person is capable of doing...decided to go to college at the age of 34...scared to death at failing...i remember sitting out front of the college in my car crying...saying to myself "what am i doing here??? i can't do this"...pep talk from a dear friend...gave me some suggestions and told me i could do it...lots of hard work for the next 16 weeks...no social life...i remember even taking my books to my son's basketball games to study during halftime...christmastime came...along with the first report card...straight A's...and Dean's list...finished with a 3.4 GPA...but...one has to play the game to get to that point...sad but true...

so, the moral of the story is...parents, don't abdicate your responsibility to the schools and expect them to do the job...sometimes, they do okay...and sometimes, they don't...

and schools you can't expect the kids to be "responsible adults" just yet...it takes teamwork...and you just can't leave it to "sorry about your luck, you should have tried harder"...

and as a community who claims to care about the kids...how many on here could walk into their local school, and offer to work with a student who is struggling to get through these tests??? has that ever occurred to anyone else??? there are many single parents who are struggling to give their children the basics of food and clothing...let alone time...why not, those who are sitting around, sipping their beers (as some have been known to brag about on here) stepping up to the plate for some kid???...make a difference...

i am NOT a hillary clinton fan by any means...but, she was right when she said "it takes a village to raise a child"

this is not any one thing will fix the problem...that is exactly what is the cause of it...if we do "this"...things will change...there is no magic bullet...

but, it is every single one of us working for and with our kids that will cause a change for the better...but, until then...nothing will change...

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

shortbev,

This OGT test is a masterminding, intensely, loaded, freak.

That's how I feel about it after seeing everyone's responses to this point though it could change later.

[TigerBBall2006]

MUC,

I'm sorry y ou thought/think the test was "bull", but it is not that hard or unreasonable. It's a BASIC proficiency test. If you can't pass those tests, you need extra assistance or you shouldn't be graduating. Not to mention that the kids have AT LEAST 9 chances to pass the tests.

BTW, on another comment, many states require students to pass standardized tests. Heck, in New York they have a test for every core class (called regent's or something like that).

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

TigerBBall2006,

I'm willing to reason with you on your stance. But the kids have seven chances to pass the OGT starting with their sophomore year. Maybe I'm being a little too judgmental about it and if it means that, I'm more than happy to ease up on my thinking.

[npaflas]

I think the test is bull crap. The people who brought it up didn't have to take it. They just making it rough for the kids. Down here in Georgia they are trying to make the kids go to school all year long. Sme thing about the test.

[Spize]

If you don't pass the test you don't graduate, welcome to the real world. Only in the real world you don't get 6 chances and then another chance in the summer.

If there are 300 kids graduating and 10 didn't pass the test, that tells me those 10 didn't take school seriously enough.

[Seeker]

If you don't pass the test you don't graduate, welcome to the real world. Only in the real world you don't get 6 chances and then another chance in the summer.

If there are 300 kids graduating and 10 didn't pass the test, that tells me those 10 didn't take school seriously enough.

Agreed.

These tests are not hard. The vast majority of the kids pass it the first time they take it as sophmores.
Actually, since so many kids pass it as sophmores, I have to wonder if the tests are too easy to really be a standard.

We are always demanding that the schools in the US do a better job of preparing our kids to compete in the world, then we start complaining when steps are taken to set some kind of level of knowledge that has to be demonstrated in order for a kid to claim to be a high school graduate.


Besides that, maybe, just maybe, some of the lazy-assed no-account parents will wake up and take an interest in their kids once they realize they won't be handed a diploma for just showing up in the building on a somewhat regular basis.


:scratchchin:

[austinsm11]

Agreed.

Actually, since so many kids pass it as sophmores, I have to wonder if the tests are too easy to really be a standard.



Under NCLB, by 2014 all of them should be passing as sophmores.

[austinsm11]

Students in the senior class of 2007 and beyond may graduate and receive a diploma without passing all five tests of the OGT if they meet the following requirements:

Pass four of the five tests and have missed passing the fifth test by no more than 10 scale score points;
Have had a 97 percent attendance rate each of the last four years and must not have had an expulsion in the last four years;
Have a grade point average of 2.5 out of 4.0 in the subject area missed and have completed the curriculum requirement in the subject area missed;
Have participated in any intervention programs offered by the school and must have had a 97 percent attendance rate in any program offered outside the normal school day or year, including those offered by someone other than the school;
Obtain letters of recommendation from each teacher in the subject area not yet passed and the high school principal. [/B]

Seems like these students have plenty of other ways to graduate without the test.

[austinsm11]

I'm curious what people think about testing like this at the younger grades. If an 8th grader doesn't pass the test at the end of the year, should he or she be retained? What if the 8th grader has been held back before and would turn 16 at some point in the year if he was retained?