Diocese Files Bancruptcy

[xtiger]

Where do they find these guys?? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219741,00.html

[fyrewood]

They should NOT be able to file bankruptcy to get away from paying sexual abuse claims. If they are allowed to file, then shut down their diocese permanently also so that it can never happen again.

[The Voice]

There are two lines of belief today with Catholocism .. the Roman belief and the Western belief.. In going along with a western movement; I too , would like to see priests being allowed to marry.. I'm sick and tired of homosexuals hiding behind the cloth.. It brings down and undermines the true mission of the Catholic Doctorine ..

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[xtiger]

There are two lines of belief today with Catholocism .. the Roman belief and the Western belief.. In going along with a western movement; I too , would like to see priests being allowed to marry.. I'm sick and tired of homosexuals hiding behind the cloth.. It brings down and undermines the true mission of the Catholic Doctorine ..

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Seems the Western version might be evolving within Lutheran Ideolology(protestant).

[TigerVic]

Voice- I'm not sure of your distinction between "Roman and Western" belief? There is only one Catholic Church (Christ established a singular church) with ONE set of doctrines passed on by the apostles and their successors.

Christ gave the apostles, particularly Peter, the keys to the Kingdom (a reference to a "prime minister" role related to in the Old Testament) the authority to bind and loose. He did not give an expiration date on that authority. However, there are certain core elements that can never be changed that the Church has no authority over (e.g., priests must be men or that marriage is between a man and a woman). However, priestly marriage is a discipline imposed in the Latin Rite (one of 21 Rites of the Church- all under the Chair of Peter) and can be changed- but only by those with the Authority that has been handed down.

Now, whether it is changed or isn't is not our call (There is a shortage of priestly vocations to be sure, but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of vocations to the papacy!) Also, there are good reasons for celibacy- reasons that go beyond the whims and wiles of modern culture- the culture of death. In fact there are good reasons for all disciplines. Here are a number of articles relating to the discipline of priestly celibacy:

http://www.catholic.com/search.asp?query=priestly+celibacy

(Note: There ARE married priests in the Latin Rite. Most are former Lutheran and Anglican ministers who have converted to the Faith and received special permission from the Pope. Several stories are on http://www.chnetwork.org (there is no Earthly reason why one would become Catholic, let alone priests! There ARE Heavenly reasons, however.)

Now one can choose to accept or reject doctrines, but if he/she rejects even one, he/she is not Catholic (it's a package deal). You've become your own pope and you've now defined God for your own purposes (created God in your own image). You either believe God gave a visible authority to communicate and decide on issues or you don't. But if He didn't leave an authority, then we all are basing things (including Biblical passages- the Bible being a collection of books defined as the written Tradition by the Church) on our own opinion (relativism). He built a Church, not a debating society!

As for the scandal and all the ramifications, it's pretty sad, just like many other scandals through the centuries. Catholics, let alone non-Catholics, have been trying to tear down and eliminate the Church for centuries. But it will never happen because it is a Divinely-established institution, not some man-made club with rules that are nice for everyone to agree with (Jesus wasn't nice. he was kind, but not nice- people don't crucify nice people). Thus, although people (including myself) are always in need or reform, the Church and its doctrines don't.

My question is why are all priests and the whole Church are vilified when a few of its sheep (and in this case, priestly sheep) go astray? Sure the crimes were henious, but they weren't done with the Church's blessing! One shouldn't leave Peter because of Judas (who also was a Catholic priest!). Priests are people too with their own failings- but one shouldn't discrimate against ALL of them because of the actions of a relative few (although antiCatholicism is the last acceptable prejudice in America, perhaps with the exception of unwanted people such as the unborn, poor, and elderly). Pay the criminal price (including bankruptcy or whatever- I'm sure people in charge are possibly sinning there too), but don't denigrate doctrines and disciplines because some people couldn't keep their vows.

If you have a problem with a Church doctrine, argue with Jesus about it- it's His fault! If you have a problem with Church discipline, you can disagree with it, but to remain Catholic, you must abide by it (go where the authority is).

[The Voice]

A truly informative post Vic.. thank you.. in essence; it helped me to recapture the core values.. there is no politices with Jesus .. The politics of religion is another story all together..

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[xtiger]

Here's a link that will provide some insight http://cathvprot.blogspot.com/

[TigerVic]

Interesting link, x. it does address the core differences in what merits salvation (Faith OR works vs. Faith AND Works- why does the Bible, whenever it talks about being judged, it says that we'll be judged by our works and how we lived our faith).

However, it doesn't deal (at least so much) in the basis of truth for each viewpoint. The core Protestant belief invented by Luther was sola scriptura- Bible alone, with the assumption that all one needed to do was read the Bible and everything (including ideas about nuclear weapons?) would be there and all we need to do is read it to understand it. However, he also believed that when people read the Bible they would come to the same interpretations and conclusions that he did. A few years later, toward his death, he remarked that he tried to get rid of one Pope and now he had created 100!

The doctrine is illogical (Sola scriptura can not be found in the Bible), unhistorical (by what authority did the Table of Contents come about?- something Luther tried to change by his own "authority") and even unbiblical (e.g., the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is the Church; Hold fast to the Traditions we taught you- both by mouth and by letter; When you have a disagreement with aperson, if they won't listen to reason, take them to the Church (note: what church??); Paul's letters were just followups to spoken preaching of core truths, etc., etc.)

If you study the Early Church Fathers, those who learned at the feet of the apostles and their immediate successors, you'll find they are awfully like the Catholic Church, with the Eucharist (and Mass), Confession, Communion of Saints, Authority of Bishops (with the Bishop of Rome being unique and the ultimate decider, etc., etc.! As Cardinal Newman, a convert from Anglicanism, once remarked: "to become deep in history is to cease to be Protestant".

[Obie Wan]

[T]there are good reasons for celibacy- reasons that go beyond the whims and wiles of modern culture- the culture of death.
There's also a more basc reason: money. Celibate priests have no heirs.

Jesus wasn't nice. he was kind, but not nice- people don't crucify nice people
Say what? Are you suggesting that Jesus would have been spared if he'd only baked cookies for the Romans?

My question is why are all priests and the whole Church are vilified when a few of its sheep (and in this case, priestly sheep) go astray? Sure the crimes were henious, but they weren't done with the Church's blessing!
Nor were they repudiated by the Church. The Church's first reaction was to deny the offences and shield the offenders. In fact, they bumped right up against the line of complicity at times. Even after the issue gained traction and attention in the media, the Church's main concern seemed to be limiting the public relations fallout rather than effecting a policy of forthright admission and effective corrective action.

[TigerVic]

There's also a more basc reason: money. Celibate priests have no heirs..

Why don't you go read the reasons the Church gives for the discipline rather than making up your own or others' reasons? I gave you a link- did you read any of it? I refuse to get into an argument with you or others who twist others' words to their own liking.

Say what? Are you suggesting that Jesus would have been spared if he'd only baked cookies for the Romans?..


I don't know much about baking cookies, but He wasn't afraid to speak the truth, even though they are hard truths (e.g., take the narrow way; deny yourself and take up- don't run away from - your cross; you must eat my flesh; Follow Me; teach them to obey ALL My Commandments (not just a selection of the convienent ones, etc.). He also wasn't afraid to be counter-cultural- often decrying the generation, etc. Thus, He was not there just to tell people what they wanted to hear. He wasn't there to "tickle their ears". He certainly didn't preach a "health and wealth" gospel.

Nor were they repudiated by the Church. The Church's first reaction was to deny the offences and shield the offenders. In fact, they bumped right up against the line of complicity at times. Even after the issue gained traction and attention in the media, the Church's main concern seemed to be limiting the public relations fallout rather than effecting a policy of forthright admission and effective corrective action.

As I noted, the people in the Church maybe or even probably didn't handle things in a Christ-like manner. They're people and sinful like the rest of us. It would be great for all priests (and all of us) to be Holy, but we all we can do is keep on trying to imitate Christ in all things and be sorrowful and contrite- and receive His Mercy through what Christ instituted for us - Confession- when we fall ("Be perfect, like My Heavenly Father is perfect"). The bishops' role is to maintain the Truths handed down by Christ and the apostles and not mess with them as well as to allow Christ to work through them in the Sacraments of Grace. To those standards, they have done those things they've been called to do. But that doesn't say they can't or won't screw up otherwise.

[Obie Wan]

[T]there are good reasons for celibacy- reasons that go beyond the whims and wiles of modern culture- the culture of death.There's also a more basc reason: money. Celibate priests have no heirs..
Why don't you go read the reasons the Church gives for the discipline rather than making up your own or others' reasons?
Why don't you suspend reflexive defense and think for yourself? The history of the Catholic is chock full of doctrines and positions that have the "coincidental" effect of enlarging the coffers of the Church. What about birth control? Fewer rubbers = more tithing Catholics. More illegal immigrants from Mexico = tithing Catholics with more disposable income.

Have you ever been to St. Peters? Have you ever seen the Vatican museums? Please don't tell us that the Catholic Church is not fully cognizant of and extremely concerned with the acquisition of material wealth. And they're not above a little chicanery to get it; perhaps you should review the sales pitch used to fund the building of St. Peters.

The Catholic Church is a organization of men. As such, you can (and do) see the full range of human behavior on display in their conduct.

[CarlE]

As I noted, the people in the Church maybe or even probably didn't handle things in a Christ-like manner.

Vic, my problem is not only did they NOT handle it in a Christ-like manner they did everything they could to hide the fact that these heinous acts were taking place. It's one thing to not glorify an act. It's quite another to actually take evil-like steps to hide the truth. Just my thoughts.

[CarlE]

Fewer rubbers = more tithing Catholics. More illegal immigrants from Mexico = tithing Catholics with more disposable income.



Bro, this is bizarre even by YOUR standards. It's obvious you have a prejudice toward the Catholic church. But this one had my head shaking.

[xtiger]

Should the Catholic Church allow marriage among Priests? I say yes, why? It
doesn't indicate anywhere in the bible you can't.

I believe Luther married a nun. Speaking of Luther, he must of been one tough cookie if he could convert most of Germany(most stubborn on earth),
and pretty much all of northern Europe and Scandinavian countries.

[The Voice]

The core values are set in stone (literally) .. However; this question has been asked many times ...What would Jesus say today ? again.. it seems that the politics of religion is being played out on this thread, not the foundation of its doctine.. it is perception of the bible (and which writings) and beliefs verses
a movement to create an evangelisitic modern approach... We can all argue until we're blue in the face; but it just plain won't change a thing..:rock:

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[TigerVic]

What would Jesus do/say today? Listen to what His Church teaches and has taught for 2000 years. He gave us a Church so (in part) we wouldn't have to guess. With moral relativism on the rise, I'm not sure many in this world would care what He says because of the attitude that "my truth is just as right as your truth" and "How dare you impose your morality on me".

Contrary to what Obie Wan says, to be a Catholic is to be one who has not blind faith, but faith SEEKING UNDERSTANDING. In this sound bite world, it's hard to get across not only WHAT the Church teaches, but WHY. Many people, including those who call themselves Catholic, don't want to bother to actually investigate why t he Church teaches what She does because their own opinion is all that matters.

Bishop Sheen once said, "Even if no one believed the Truth, the Truth would still be there". Truth on Faith and Morals is not invented by man, it IS God. Truth is not a "something", it's a "Somebody"!

BTW, on birth control: assuming God's job of deciding when life begins and when life ends for one's own desires/convienence. The Catholic Church, I think, is the lone Christian denomination left who holds fast to God's rules regarding procreation. 1930 was the first year when other denominations started buckling to the culture of the world, such as the messages of Margaret Sanger and the Birth Control League/now called Planned Parenthood (Anglican Lambeth Conference- other denominations have since followed suit- before that, virtually ALL denominations held contraception as intrinsically evil). I think if you would read Humane Vitae, the encyclical by Pope Paul VI in 1968 that spells out why birth control is intrinsically evil (a teaching of the Church since Day 1- e.g., read the Didache, which was written about 70AD- the first "Catechism" of the Church). I think you'd be surprised at how prophetic Paul VI was on what would happen in a world with a contraceptive mentality, where the marital act is divorced from its original purpose and replaced by pleasure only (abortion needed as a backup (America's Holocaust), the breakup of the family, alternative definitions to marriage, invitro fertilization (which has led to scientific research on human beings without their consent - embryonic stem cell research- today's Mengele), euthanasia).

BTW, Luther married an ex-nun after he was excommunicated for heresy. Look back to him for many of the troubles of marriage today- he, under his own "authority", decided marriage was not a sacrament (indissoluable covenant with God), but rather only a civil matter. Although there could be wedding ceremonies in a church, they "no longer" (there must've been an expiration date of 1521 or so to God's promises) included the sanctifying grace from God found in all seven of His Sacraments.