Why isn't Legends open

[giant lugey]

Why isn't the The Legends golf course open. All the other courses in the area are open and making money, but The Legends sits idle. Then they complain about there budget and not having enough money.
I would like to know who makes the decision to close the course when the weather is still nice.

[longtimefirsttime]

I saw people golfing there the other day.

[giant lugey]

Then they were tresspassing, because the course is closed.

[The Butler]

Certain courses close during the winter, some others don't.

[giant lugey]

Certain courses who are financially strapped shouldn't be closed when it's 50 degrees outside.
I went to Chippewa last Saturday and they had over 100 golfers at $30.00 each.
Zoar was booked solid from 8:00 - 1:00.
Tammy had to open both the Hills and The Dales courses.

I just think the Legends is missing out on certain income.

[longtimefirsttime]

Then they were tresspassing, because the course is closed.

I'm not doubting you (I thought I saw carts and all). I know the course has sustained some damage and they were talking about a major overhaul. But I agree with their financial problems, they shouldn't leave money on the table.

[obie7661]

As everyone knows, Winters in Ohio vary from severe to very mild. Last month was the sixth warmest December on record.

Isn't it the responsibility of those that manage the course to have a "Plan B" in case of mild weather during the Winter months?

There may be a reason why the course can't be open ... but if there's not ... then SHAME on them.

[xtiger]

As I was driving west on Rt 30 coming from Canton, I noticed
LTFT, Mtown, and Bambo on the green with 3 cases of beer in their
cart.

[The Butler]

As I was driving west on Rt 30 coming from Canton, I noticed
LTFT, Mtown, and Bambo on the green with 3 cases of beer in their
cart.

And that was just for the front nine. :drinkem:

[CarlE]

As I was driving west on Rt 30 coming from Canton, I noticed
LTFT, Mtown, and Bambo on the green with 3 cases of beer in their
cart.

If LTFT was on the course, 3 cases of beer wasn't NEARLY enough.

[Indiana95]

Why isn't the The Legends golf course open. All the other courses in the area are open and making money, but The Legends sits idle. Then they complain about there budget and not having enough money.
I would like to know who makes the decision to close the course when the weather is still nice.

Why don't you call and ask? Are you sure they have not been open at all this winter? 830-GOLF may get you some answers....try it.

[longtimefirsttime]

As I was driving west on Rt 30 coming from Canton, I noticed
LTFT, Mtown, and Bambo on the green with 3 cases of beer in their
cart.


Number one, I was thirsty. And number two, and most troubling, what were you doing in that mutt-infested town?

[longtimefirsttime]

And that was just for the front nine. :drinkem:

When I play it takes four hours to play the front nine. :biggrin:

[longtimefirsttime]

If LTFT was on the course, 3 cases of beer wasn't NEARLY enough.

They only make those carts so big. You have to start somewhere.

[giant lugey]

I have called. All you get is their answering machine stating they are closed for the season and will re-open on March 15.

[Al.]

Here is an update as reported by Joe Shaheen in today's (1/05/07) INDE

http://www.indeonline.com/index.php?ID=12963&Category=

[The Butler]

Here is an update as reported by Joe Shaheen in today's (1/05/07) INDE


I forgot about the drainage issue mentioned in the article. Any damage done now would not look good come spring. There are some very soggy areas out there.

[Obie Wan]

Interesting article. If I may summarize Craig Immel's position:
- The course is built in the wrong place.
- The course was poorly designed.
- The course doesn't make money.

How about this for a solution: sell the land to a developer and build houses on it.

[Indiana95]

Interesting article.

How about this for a solution: sell the land to a developer and build houses on it.

The City wouldn't be able to get enough money to pay off the existing course debt if the developer could only build houses. A mixed use development that allows for commercial use may be able to get what to Legends needs to break even.

[Obie Wan]

The City wouldn't be able to get enough money to pay off the existing course debt if the developer could only build houses. A mixed use development that allows for commercial use may be able to get what to Legends needs to break even.
They're not going to get that money by continuing to operate at a deficit, are they? I would posit that cutting your losses is a more sound fiscal policy than throwing bad money after good. For that matter, it probably makes more sense to just shut the place down.

[Indiana95]

They're not going to get that money by continuing to operate at a deficit, are they? I would posit that cutting your losses is a more sound fiscal policy than throwing bad money after good. For that matter, it probably makes more sense to just shut the place down.

The Legends does not operate at a deficit. It's annual revenue is approximately $1 million and its expenses are approximately $800,000. That's $200,000 of profit. The issue is with the large debt service, with payments of over $400,000/yr.

How would closing down make sense when it is covering its operating cost and able to at least cover some of its debt each year? Open or not, the City has to make the payment. If the course closes down, all of the money to make the annual debt payment would have to come from somewhere else. That doesn't seem like the right approach with the financial uncertainty in 2007 and beyond. I don't think other City departments have any budgetary wiggle room.

The fact is this. Adding 9 holes and doubling the debt put the golf course in a no win situation. The numbers don't add up, even if the course was near full capacity.

There are two choices now. Find an annual source of subsidy so the course can spend what it needs to successfully operate until the debt is gone and the City will be sitting on millions of dollars in equity when its all paid off. Or, find a developer who is willing to pay enough to eliminate the debt.

Closing it without a plan to cover the manadatory debt payments just doesn't make economic sense.

[Seeker]

The Legends does not operate at a deficit. It's annual revenue is approximately $1 million and its expenses are approximately $800,000. That's $200,000 of profit. The issue is with the large debt service, with payments of over $400,000/yr.


Everything you said makes sense, except it does not operate at a profit.
The payment on debt IS an expense.
It is losing $200,000 a year.

I realize it still doesn't make sense to just close it down, but you can't say it's operating at a profit.

(Otherwise, I'm in the WRONG business!)

[Indiana95]

Everything you said makes sense, except it does not operate at a profit.
The payment on debt IS an expense.
It is losing $200,000 a year.

I realize it still doesn't make sense to just close it down, but you can't say it's operating at a profit.

(Otherwise, I'm in the WRONG business!)

It's a matter of semantics. You are technically right. What I was referring to specifically is its operating budget. Yes, the debt payment is an expense, but not an operating expense. Revenues exceed expenses in the operating budget and profits are trasfered to its debt service budget.

If the Legends didn't have a mortgage like the Elms, Lyons Den, or Tammy, it would be making a $200,000+ per year profit. Not sure if these courses have margins like that.

[The Butler]

The fact is this. Adding 9 holes and doubling the debt put the golf course in a no win situation. The numbers don't add up, even if the course was near full capacity.

Worst decision ever. They turned a very good 18 hole course into 3 average nine hole courses.

[giant lugey]

Immel said in the article the course is too wet and they would only get members playing, and they don't have staffing budgeted for winter.
It is no wetter now than it is in April.
Isn't that one reason you buy a membership.
It would only take one person to open it up.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

[Indiana95]

It would only take one person to open it up.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.

It's not as simple as "opening it up". What does that mean?

To avoid letting the greens and tees get detroyed during winter play or any other time for that matter, it takes daily maintenance. Tees and greens need to be mowed and rolled. Cups and tee markers need to be changed daily. Fairway divots need to be filled.

This doesn't even include what has to be done at the pro-shop with preparing carts, managing check-in, etc.

I'm sure the Elms and Tammy have more than 1 person working. Immel said it.....he has no budget for staff in the winter. Should he use his staffing dollars now and close during the summer?

Running a municipal golf course is very different than running the Elms or other public courses. Its budget is like other city departments, once it is set only Council can add dollars to any given line item. If Immel would bring staff in to work, it would be equivilant to another City department working people overtime without authorization.

Would it be smart to use staffing dollars now, when most of the play would be from members? Given the restrictive circumstances, I would stay close too, unless Council would increase the staffing budget.

This is probably not the best PR decision, but what else can they do?

[Obie Wan]

This is probably not the best PR decision, but what else can they do?
Get out of the golf course business, for starters.

[section3]

bring in all the employees on salary they should be trained on how to open up a golf course.

[giant lugey]

The thing is, in the winter time you only need at most 2 employees. You need one to run the cash register and someone else to bring up carts or be the starter. If all you are getting is members, then you could get by with only one employee, just to open the place up. There is no mowing or raking traps or any maintence in the winter.
The budget constraints argument has no merit.
The being too wet argument has no merit. It is no wetter now than in April.

I am a member there and I know many members would like to be able to play.
We don't even need carts, we can walk.
Most members that I know take care of the course. We fix divots, repair ball marks, etc. The course would not sustain any damage if the members we permitted to play.