TigerDon's awesome article [Archive]

MTown

12-12-2006, 10:21 AM

That is great work. That is exactly the kind of information I was hoping to see. Now with some hard examples we can better formulate an opinion on which way the program should go. Turns out I was wrong for thinking it would be tougher to make the playoffs in D2...it would have had virtually no effect.

Al.

12-12-2006, 10:40 AM

It is kind of a mixed bag. Would the scheduling have been any different in those two years for many of the teams knowing that they would drop to DII or opt-up to DI :scratchchin:

TigerCoach

12-12-2006, 10:57 AM

giant lugey

12-12-2006, 02:03 PM

Even if we go D2, I think Massillon will be faced with the same scheduling problems we have always had. Most potential opponents who are in a league, will still be reluctant to schedule us. I doubt they will view us as lesser opponent just because we are D2.

If you can read this....thank a Teacher
If you can read this in English....thank a Veteran.

JazzyJeff

12-12-2006, 02:13 PM

I think the most important sentence in Don's article is:

"It seems those schools are fed up with trying to compete against the disproportionately large number of parochial schools in that group and the current plan for realignment doesn?t address the real problem."

Many of us have been saying that for years.

Except that Don was talking about Division III, and I highly doubt a Massillon City School employee would have the scoop as to why the OHSAA is doing anything. The OHSAA is not a dictatorship.

Red50Go

12-12-2006, 03:28 PM

I agree w/ JJ on that. I am sure there is pretty equal belly-aching across the board for OHSAA to take another look. Not that I would trust the credibility of ANY Massillon adm. source besides Stacy, but I dont know why D3 would think they are any different than the others as far as competing w/ privates. Especially now that Steubenville won their 2nd consecutive.

TigerCoach

12-12-2006, 04:13 PM

JazzyJeff

12-12-2006, 04:18 PM

The parochial schools' ability to recruit, or hand select, their teams versus the public schools is the real problem. I wasn't necessarily focusing on Div. III. This year, in Div. I, we had a very rare instance when all Final 4 teams were public schools. That doesn't happen often, if ever. I'm sure Smitty would say that the OHSAA did it on purpose to smack down the arguement.

But Don's "sources" say its DIII, so the comments can only be attributed that way.

As a resident of California, how could you possibly know what recruiting is going on in Northeast Ohio?

Tiger Don

12-12-2006, 05:54 PM

tiger#22

12-12-2006, 09:35 PM

Please don't doubt my administration source. He networks with the best just like the rest of us. And, yes, he was referring specifically to Division 3 regarding the public vs. parochial school argument.

The last 2 years Steubenville has put the parochial school domination argument to rest in D 3.

Obie Wan

12-12-2006, 09:59 PM

The last 2 years Steubenville has put the parochial school domination argument to rest in D 3.
Which gives public schools 2 of the last 7 titles. And 3 of the last 11. And all 3 public school wins in the title game were over parochial schools. In the last 11 title games, 15 of the 22 teams were parochial.

You really think a 1-point win is proof of a sea change? You really think things are completely different now?

tiger#22

12-12-2006, 11:09 PM

Which gives public schools 2 of the last 7 titles. And 3 of the last 11. And all 3 public school wins in the title game were over parochial schools. In the last 11 title games, 15 of the 22 teams were parochial.

You really think a 1-point win is proof of a sea change? You really think things are completely different now?

Twist it how you see fit, scoreboard doesnt lie, a public school in D 3 has won the last 2 titles.
If the Tigers won the last 2 titles in D 1 would we be talking about parochial dominance in D 1?

Obie Wan

12-12-2006, 11:26 PM

Twist it how you see fit, scoreboard doesnt lie, a public school in D 3 has won the last 2 titles.
Yeah, so what? Selectively extracting two data points is hardly a reasonable basis for a sweeping conclusion, particularly when the body of evidence as a whole points in a completely different direction.

If the Tigers won the last 2 titles in D 1 would we be talking about parochial dominance in D 1?
If you were intelligent, yes. Because you would then realize that all of the data has to be considered, not merely that which supports your preferred conclusion.

Fats

12-13-2006, 08:23 AM

Twist it how you see fit, scoreboard doesnt lie, a public school in D 3 has won the last 2 titles.
If the Tigers won the last 2 titles in D 1 would we be talking about parochial dominance in D 1?
I think you need to look over the season record. Div. III public vs parochial record. One public school winning a title does not show how the other public schools are doing against the parochial schools.

NEXT, I am not one who believes that the private schools do anything wrong. I do not think they have an unfair advantage. Being private they have learned how to market their schools. I HAVE said this many times on this board, Massillon needs to MARKET are school in the same way. NO OHSAA rule prohibits us from marketing all the things we have to offer. A great choir program, debate teams, our successful alumni. Along with that we can mention our great facilities, our great tradition, our national reputation in sports. So instead of complaining about the private schools we should follow what they have done in putting their schools and programs in a good light.

TigerCoach

12-13-2006, 09:52 AM

But Don's "sources" say its DIII, so the comments can only be attributed that way.

As a resident of California, how could you possibly know what recruiting is going on in Northeast Ohio?

I have my sources! BigTime, Xtiger, Dawgh8r, Kamd50, and don't forget Keno!

OTC TIGER

12-13-2006, 02:17 PM

When you build it...They will come :glare:

Smitty

12-13-2006, 02:33 PM

... I am not one who believes that the private schools do anything wrong. I do not think they have an unfair advantage. Being private they have learned how to market their schools....

This may sound like I'm asking the ol' "chicken-&-egg" question, but:

Are the private / parochial schools using their football championships as advertizing material... OR... is the marketing & advertizing for students inadvertently helping the football teams?

JazzyJeff

12-13-2006, 03:17 PM

This may sound like I'm asking the ol' "chicken-&-egg" question, but:

Are the private / parochial schools using their football championships as advertizing material... OR... is the marketing & advertizing for students inadvertently helping the football teams?

That's an incredibly simplistic view of the situation. The success of these teams and the increase in enrollment don't happen in a vacuum. Besides, there are more private schools without football championships that with.

Does (or did) Massillon use their success during the pre-championship years to increase enrollment? Is it a coincidence that there are often a higher percentage of males at Massillon Washington?

MTown

12-13-2006, 03:20 PM

Does (or did) Massillon use their success during the pre-championship years to increase enrollment?

Yup.

Look at Ohio State....when I was applying to get into OSU, every brochure I ever got had a picture of the '97 Rose Bowl win on it. Every school likes to promote its acheivements. I don't blame the private schools for doing it and I would hope Massillon would do more of it.

monte81

12-13-2006, 04:06 PM

Tigers down here in the C-bus talk about wanting to be home to tigertown but work is scarce. General employment is rather easy but once you graduate college professional jobs are hard to come by at home. Once the businees and professional jobs pick up the people will move back home and enrollment will pick up--but is it ever going to happen??? Everyone said businesses and enrollment would pick up in 1991 when the new school was built but that didn't happen. We need to market our school and the great things around the programs to persaude families but many residents don't want to drive to Cleveland everyday for work!! The privates in the Cleveland and Cincinnati area are blessed to be in bigger populated cities so driving 20-30 minutes is normal everyday life for school and/or employment.

I really miss watching the news and knowing that noone in my city was murdered the night before! I miss Massillon really bad and to think my youngest son is growing up as a Eagle in Glenoak and will have to go to middle school over there next year if i am not there---I really am feeling bad now!!!!

ChronicTiger

12-13-2006, 04:09 PM

Twist it how you see fit, scoreboard doesnt lie, a public school in D 3 has won the last 2 titles.
If the Tigers won the last 2 titles in D 1 would we be talking about parochial dominance in D 1?

You have to look at all the data. You cant take a 2 year slice and make blanket statements. In the playoff era in D1, parochial schools rule.....

monte81

12-13-2006, 04:10 PM

That's an incredibly simplistic view of the situation. The success of these teams and the increase in enrollment don't happen in a vacuum. Besides, there are more private schools without football championships that with.

Does (or did) Massillon use their success during the pre-championship years to increase enrollment? Is it a coincidence that there are often a higher percentage of males at Massillon Washington?

We didnt have to because Perry, Jackson, and Tuslaw kids all went to Massillon because it was the only high school around. Now all the kids are spread out between 4-5 schools in the area. Plus the steel mills were big business and people were making good money right at home! It has changed the scope of small town football the last 20 years-- it just took alot longer to reach us because we live for football. Our enrollment is still good enough to win the championship in DI or DII with alittle MORE DEDICATION and DISCIPLINE!!!!

JazzyJeff

12-13-2006, 05:02 PM

You have to look at all the data. You cant take a 2 year slice and make blanket statements. In the playoff era in D1, parochial schools rule.....

If you look at that slice, you'd realize that two schools ruled, Moeller and St. Ignatius.

tiger#22

12-13-2006, 09:14 PM

Yeah, so what? Selectively extracting two data points is hardly a reasonable basis for a sweeping conclusion, particularly when the body of evidence as a whole points in a completely different direction.

If you were intelligent, yes. Because you would then realize that all of the data has to be considered, not merely that which supports your preferred conclusion.

Except when it is the previous 2 years your talking about, it is all about what have you done for me lately and in D 3 that is a public school champ back to back...

As for D 1 in the last 10 years it is 5 publics and 5 parochials,,,such dominance...:scratchchin:

tiger#22

12-13-2006, 09:15 PM

You have to look at all the data. You cant take a 2 year slice and make blanket statements. In the playoff era in D1, parochial schools rule.....

Not in the last 10 years they dont, is that enough for a blanket statement for you.

mike_da_man13

12-13-2006, 10:19 PM

Except when it is the previous 2 years your talking about, it is all about what have you done for me lately and in D 3 that is a public school champ back to back...

As for D 1 in the last 10 years it is 5 publics and 5 parochials,,,such dominance...:scratchchin:

dude there are what 7 or 8 d1 parochials in ohio right? they won 5 out of the last 10 compared to the well over 100 public d1s.

TigerVic

12-14-2006, 07:38 AM

Should all those D I's who haven't won a playoff title now drop to Div. II if they are given the choice?

Enrollment figures aren't everything. In fact, there are many intangibles here that we can't measure. Looking only at numbers never will give you a complete, or even accurate, picture of where the Tigers belong.

The fact that we've been in the Div. I playoffs more and have been more competitive in them than the vast majority of Div. I schools should stand for some miniscule teeny-tiny part of this argument. So should the support structure of our program.

From many points of view, we belong in Div. I football more than, say, Jackson.

Smitty

12-14-2006, 09:37 AM

That's an incredibly simplistic view of the situation. The success of these teams and the increase in enrollment don't happen in a vacuum....

No kidding.

So... explain for me, genius, how / why we have football playoffs in Ohio in 1972 when only 2 years earlier (1970) the OHSAA was on record saying "there will never be football playoffs in Ohio"??

ChronicTiger

12-14-2006, 11:11 AM

If you look at that slice, you'd realize that two schools ruled, Moeller and St. Ignatius.

Thats common knowledge but thanks for pointing it out....

JazzyJeff

12-14-2006, 11:14 AM

So... explain for me, genius, how / why we have football playoffs in Ohio in 1972 when only 2 years earlier (1970) the OHSAA was on record saying "there will never be football playoffs in Ohio"??

I have no idea what that has to do with anything. And before you start blabbering, no, they didn't teach OHSAA playoff history at St. Edward, so I have no idea who said that (although I doubt anyone really did) or if you could prove it if you knew.

In any case, you're trying mightily to turn this thread into one of your conspiracy theories, which really doesn't fit in to this thread or Don's well-researched column.

ChronicTiger

12-14-2006, 11:14 AM

Not in the last 10 years they dont, is that enough for a blanket statement for you.

No its not. Thats less than 1/3 of all the data. You could comment on a possible trend but not a blanket statement about all the data.

:eek2:

JazzyJeff

12-14-2006, 11:18 AM

Thats common knowledge but thanks for pointing it out....

Then why turn this into private vs. public when essentially two schools that rule the roost in DI, and those dynasties are over?

Did the privates bitch and complain when publics ruled the AP/UPI polls for so many years?

monte81

12-14-2006, 11:24 AM

If we get bumped to DII then thats it but hope we have the option to move up! If we do not then we play DII and work toward a title. Regardless we still will put exceptional talent on the field, make the playoffs, and rule the division(hopefully). In DI--if we play there-- we keep grinding, working hard, and maintaining tiger discipline and get the title in DI--PERIOD!!!

Are you guys going to stop going to the games if we are DII???--- NO
Will the Tigers still have schedule problems???-- YES
Will we still have the same talent on the team in DI or DII????--- YES
Will America still see Massillon as the football capitol???--- YES

WE ARE THE MASSILLON TIGERS ALWAYS AND NO RULES OR COMMITTEE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY--- WINNERS MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!!!! BIGGER-- FASTER-- STRONGER-- UNBEATABLE!!! This is what we need to get back to--RIGHT NOW!!!

Smitty

12-14-2006, 12:33 PM

... Did the privates bitch and complain when publics ruled the AP/UPI polls for so many years?

Yes.

ChronicTiger

12-14-2006, 12:49 PM

Then why turn this into private vs. public when essentially two schools that rule the roost in DI, and those dynasties are over?

Did the privates bitch and complain when publics ruled the AP/UPI polls for so many years?

I want the privates in the same playoff that we are in.....We dont need three champs in each division every year.....could you imagine an AP champ, public champ, and a private champ. This is starting to sound like the BCS.....
hahahah. After the playoffs are done the public champ will play the private champ and the winner of that will play the all mighty AP champ......

:eek2:

JazzyJeff

12-14-2006, 01:09 PM

Yes.

No offense, but I'm not believing for a second that the private schools came together and had anything to do with the switch. I've read numerous times on here and other places that Massillon was one of the staunchest proponents of the playoff system.

I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that a lot less schools are upset with the playoff situation now as opposed to the AP and UPI just crowning the best Northeast Ohio steel town high school.

Red50Go

12-14-2006, 01:55 PM

I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that a lot less schools are upset with the playoff situation now as opposed to the AP and UPI just crowning the best Northeast Ohio steel town high school.

You forgot "public" Northeast Ohio steel town high schools right? Cleveland voters were obviously bigotted. :)

monte81

12-14-2006, 03:05 PM

I want the privates in the same playoff that we are in.....We dont need three champs in each division every year.....could you imagine an AP champ, public champ, and a private champ. This is starting to sound like the BCS.....
hahahah. After the playoffs are done the public champ will play the private champ and the winner of that will play the all mighty AP champ......

:eek2:

I feel the exact same way when it comes to being in the same playoffs as the privates--Just play football. We have had our chances to win the title a FEW times and came up short( reasons we all debate??) and thats the love and passion of high school football!! Playing against Elvis Grabac and Desmond Howard was a challange we as tigers relished during my days!! We came up short but held the best running back in the state to 33 yards!(I think Jerome Myricks was the best that year)We know that to be the best you have to beat the best and we are champions so let just go get it! We have it right there in our little melting pot of football talent so lets JUST DO IT-- like the emblem on the unis say!!!:weightlift: