An "outsiders" view of the DI vs. DII debate...

[clevelandbuck]

I have had the pleasure of attending the fine tailgating within the last 5 years. I used to work w/ M-town and he has me hooked. I try to regularly attend 4 games a year and all of the playoff games.
That being said, I love Massillon Tiger football and all its traditions but I don't consider myself a true "Tiger" b/c I only go to Massillon for the games and never went to school there. Most importantly, I don't live w/ the "vibe", if you will of going to Booster Club Meetings, Pep Rally's, Practices, etc.

I can not for the life of me understand why people would support a move to DII. And the only reason is inequities in enrollment and dare I say an easier path to a state title.
I hate to tell you supporters of dropping down to DII but if you do win a state title at that division Massillon can not and should not proclaim itself the best football team in the state of Ohio and therefore the country. That should always be reserved for the Big School winner.
And in regards to the "inequities", I can honestly say with my Catholic background in Greater Cleveland and having opportunities to go to a St. Ignatius, St. Ed's , Benedictine, etc. that at least 400 of those "1200 boys" at Iggy are not there for football nor do they know what one is nor is it there dream to play there like in Massillon.
You can find an uneven playing field in any aspect of High School Athletics.
My advice, for what's its worth, is to suck it up and play. Play the best this state has to offer during the grueling playoffs in November and earn the right to be called the Best Team in the State of Ohio. Don't look for a back door to the trophy room.

See you in 3 weeks!!!!

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

Clevelandbuck,

Massillon is a great town that has always welcomed people with open arms. Guys like you are welcome to this city. I too have respect for the Massillon tradition and the people involved with Tigers football.

Massillon in Division II startles me a bit. They have always been a Division I school. Keep in mind that before the playoff era, they captured a double-digit number of Associated Press Division I poll championships. While in the playoff era, they have appeared in three state playoff championship games and last season pushed #1 Cincinnati St. Xavier to the limit.

Massillon at Division I is a better sell. The higher the division, the greater the revenue!

[Red50Go]

[QUOTE=clevelandbuck]Don't look for a back door to the trophy room. /QUOTE]

Well, if thats how most outsiders feel then we should consider your point. I do think its unfair to call playing in your assigned division "looking for a back door." But I realize this is Massillon and obviously held to higher standard than say Eastview Southlake North or whatever. Thanks for comments.

[ChronicTiger]

I have had the pleasure of attending the fine tailgating within the last 5 years. I used to work w/ M-town and he has me hooked. I try to regularly attend 4 games a year and all of the playoff games.
That being said, I love Massillon Tiger football and all its traditions but I don't consider myself a true "Tiger" b/c I only go to Massillon for the games and never went to school there. Most importantly, I don't live w/ the "vibe", if you will of going to Booster Club Meetings, Pep Rally's, Practices, etc.

I can not for the life of me understand why people would support a move to DII. And the only reason is inequities in enrollment and dare I say an easier path to a state title.
I hate to tell you supporters of dropping down to DII but if you do win a state title at that division Massillon can not and should not proclaim itself the best football team in the state of Ohio and therefore the country. That should always be reserved for the Big School winner.
And in regards to the "inequities", I can honestly say with my Catholic background in Greater Cleveland and having opportunities to go to a St. Ignatius, St. Ed's , Benedictine, etc. that at least 400 of those "1200 boys" at Iggy are not there for football nor do they know what one is nor is it there dream to play there like in Massillon.
You can find an uneven playing field in any aspect of High School Athletics.
My advice, for what's its worth, is to suck it up and play. Play the best this state has to offer during the grueling playoffs in November and earn the right to be called the Best Team in the State of Ohio. Don't look for a back door to the trophy room.

See you in 3 weeks!!!!

Great Post!

[Tiger2009]

We had DI talent but not enough kids...... but maybe we will stay in DI who knows.......

GO TIGERS!!!:tig:

[TigerVic]

Clevelandbuck, you would look good in orange!

[TigerCoach]

Nice post, ClevelandBuck, I agree with you, as do most Tigers.

[chumly]

I was always afraid but knew the time was coming that the enrollment issue would arise and Massillon would be looking at being forced to DII.

But not quite yet...There should be no question in anyones mind that we should be opting for DI if given the opportunity. Look at the all boys schools that have 2-3 times the number of boys that we have and we have beat them on the field in the last decade, including Moeller, Elder, St. Eds and Iggy....

Yeah, there are DII schools that could and do compete with the best of the DI, but they aren't Massillon!

Massillon is Massillon - I don't care if we reach DIII size someday. There should be a "Massillon Rule" that allows Massillon and a few other traditional programs to always compete in DI - WE MADE OHIO FOOTBALL WHAT IT IS!!

The mediocre thought in some fans minds that we should ever move to DII is amazing (but not surprising) to me and many others here. This almost amounts to heresy.

Furgiddabowdit - period!!
If the OSHAA ever tries to force us into DII we should take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court or amend the US Constitution.

[Smitty]

... If the OSHAA ever tries to force us into DII we should take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court or amend the US Constitution.

Hehehehe...

Actually THAT might be the day we (and a few other schools) would walk away from the OHHSAA. Membership is voluntary, and dues are paid by the member schools. We don't HAVE to be a member to have our 10-game regular season, but it's the only post-season football tournament going in Ohio.



OOhhh... that gave me an idea....

[MTown]

Clevelandbuck, you would look good in orange!

He was actually one of the easiest people to convert. He loved it from day one. I made sure when his son was born that he got his football and also gave a copy of the book too. He even drives around Cleveland with a Massillon bumper sticker on the family car. The wife loves that.

[slider63]

My Preference would be to win div 1 this year and then go into whatever division the state says our size should be in. Slider, out!!!

[austinsm11]

Hehehehe...

Actually THAT might be the day we (and a few other schools) would walk away from the OHHSAA. Membership is voluntary, and dues are paid by the member schools. We don't HAVE to be a member to have our 10-game regular season, but it's the only post-season football tournament going in Ohio.



OOhhh... that gave me an idea....

How about we form our own athletic association. We can play all the DI teams in the regular season. For the post season there will be nobody to play in our association as others will be in OHSAA. We will be declared the champions of our association and then we can finally have our trophy!

[Benchboss1]

I hate to tell you supporters of dropping down to DII but if you do win a state title at that division Massillon can not and should not proclaim itself the best football team in the state of Ohio and therefore the country. That should always be reserved for the Big School winner.




Just to prove your point incorrect, I need to ask the following question. Who was the best basketball team in the state of Ohio last season?

How about the years that LeBron played for St. Vincent St. Mary and won their two state titles? Was the division 1 winner better than they were? I think not!!:help2:

[austinsm11]

Just to prove your point incorrect, I need to ask the following question. Who was the best basketball team in the state of Ohio last season?

How about the years that LeBron played for St. Vincent St. Mary and won their two state titles? Was the division 1 winner better than they were? I think not!!

Wow. How can you compare the two? How many players actually play on a basketball team? Maybe 6 or 7. One oustanding player could help a basketball team a lot more than football team that needs probably a minimum of what, 30, probably more, regular players between offensive, defense, special teams, and due to injury.

You think any of the other championship winners winners would have beat St. X?

[Big Fan Van]

Just to prove your point incorrect, I need to ask the following question. Who was the best basketball team in the state of Ohio last season?

How about the years that LeBron played for St. Vincent St. Mary and won their two state titles? Was the division 1 winner better than they were? I think not!!:help2:[/QUOTE]


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The main thing I see in your post is, your trying to compare the division 1 to division 2. and you ask "was the division 1 winner better than they were?" now put massillon football in that same situation as St.V. yes Massillon looks and seems like the best since they were the division 2 champs this year. (Y'Know were talking as if it did happen of corse) wouldnt you rather win the division 1 trophy instead? WITH THE SAME TEAM.

[ChronicTiger]

I hate to tell you supporters of dropping down to DII but if you do win a state title at that division Massillon can not and should not proclaim itself the best football team in the state of Ohio and therefore the country. That should always be reserved for the Big School winner.




Just to prove your point incorrect, I need to ask the following question. Who was the best basketball team in the state of Ohio last season?

How about the years that LeBron played for St. Vincent St. Mary and won their two state titles? Was the division 1 winner better than they were? I think not!!:help2:

Your using some once in a lifetime type players/teams to summarize an entire argument.....

I'm not buying it!

St V was 26-1 one of those seasons, anyone know who they lost to?

[DAWGH8R]

Do you think that Stuebenville doesn't like their DII or DIII trophy's ?? They've dropped a LONG way , since their D1 glory days. But at those State Title games, they look pretty content to me !!!

You are what you are. If we end up in DII, we'll be happy with a DII title.

[chumly]

:no2:

The Repository some December Sunday morning in the Future:

Above the fold Front Page:

"STATE CHAMPS!"
"McKinley Wins D1 Championship"

Page 4 of the Sports Section on that same day in December:

"Massillon Romps in DII Championship"

How disgusted you all would feel :puke:

[chumly]

Let's all practice Our Cheer to the McKinley Fans...

ready...

"We're Number One of Number Two, We're Number One of Number Two..."

c'mon everybody, join me...

"We're num...'

Okay, what's the matter???

I know, they we're Number One of Number One, but we're in Number Two now, it's okay...

let's go everyone...

"We're Number One of Number Two!"

That's it, you got it now...

[Seeker]

Do you think that Stuebenville doesn't like their DII or DIII trophy's ?? They've dropped a LONG way , since their D1 glory days. But at those State Title games, they look pretty content to me !!!

You are what you are. If we end up in DII, we'll be happy with a DII title.

I don't find much to compare between Steubenville and Massillon.

Plus my guess would be that they sank pretty low before they started back up.

[chumly]

"you Can"t Handle The Truth!"

[GrowlingTiger87]

Sure, we don't view Steubenville in the same class as Massillon, and I can accept that, but does that diminish their accomplishment?

[Seeker]

Sure, we don't view Steubenville in the same class as Massillon, and I can accept that, but does that diminish their accomplishment?

Thank you. I think that we may have the key to this discussion here.

Of course it doesn’t diminish their accomplishment.

BUT, accomplishment is measured from where you START, not where you END.

For Steubenville to fight their way to a state championship after garnering increased fan and community support is an accomplishment.

For Massillon to come back to the level of play and community enthusiasm that we had in 2005 was an accomplishment.

For Massillon to drop to Division 2 and win a state title there would not be an accomplishment.

[GrowlingTiger87]

I can't disagree Seeker. I'm just glad you clarified.

[Smitty]

... we don't view Steubenville in the same class as Massillon ....

We should.

Many posters here are much too young to know the place Steubenville holds in Ohio H.S. football history. If anything, their line of success goes back further in time than does Massillon's. Their 1930 state champ team (undefeated & un-scored upon!) deserves recognition with "the best of the best" teams of all time. There is good reason Steubenville was a member of the AAC with us, McK, Warren, Niles, & Alliance.

Unfortunately for all of us, time, geography, and economics has taken from the population of this proud town. I'm guessing their current population is half (or even less than that) of what it was 40 or 50 years ago. The loss of population is the ONLY factor that's diminished their football.

It's too bad for Massillon that the series with Steubenville ended 20 years ago. Death Valley is a great place for a Friday night football game.

[xtiger]

ROLL RED ROLL!!!
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[DAWGH8R]

Apparently , Seeker needs to do homework on Steubenville. They were a mirror image of us back in the day !!:rockin: I have a TREMENDOUS respect for the Big Red program.


You know what else............Cleveland Indians will never win the NationalLeague pennant !!!:wtf:

[Grandma Turtle]

ROLL RED ROLL!!!
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]



Gotta love the BIG RED FIRE BREATHING horse

[Seeker]

Apparently , Seeker needs to do homework on Steubenville. They were a mirror image of us back in the day !!:rockin: I have a TREMENDOUS respect for the Big Red program.


You know what else............Cleveland Indians will never win the NationalLeague pennant !!!:wtf:

I didn't say anything about "back in the day".
In fact, I said that they likely went through some down times since then and have climbed back up.
They should be proud.

[Red50Go]

Seeker, we could drop to Division 4 and you'd have us playing a D-1 meatgrinder. Lol. God bless ya.

[DAWGH8R]

Your right, they went through bad times.

Steel mills closing.
Rust belt city with little to offer.
High unemployment.
NO JOBS.
Population declining due to economics.

Which , in turn effects enrollment..

We could be the next Steubenville !!

ROLL RED ROLL !!!

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Seeker]

Your right, they went through bad times.

I was referring to their football program, not the city.

It may sound like I am personally in favor of staying in Division 1, but I haven't decided what I want to see happen.

What I have been trying to point out is that going to Division 2 will change our culture, a lot.
It bothers me that so many people seem to think that everything will remain the same if we switch, except we might have a better chance to win a championship.
There's no way things will remain the same.

The fact is that the decision will be made by people other that the posters on this forum.
What I have come to accept is that what will be will be, and I will not have much to say about it.

However, having said all that, I would dearly like to see us win it all once in Division 1 before we make the switch.

[Seeker]

Seeker, we could drop to Division 4 and you'd have us playing a D-1 meatgrinder. Lol. God bless ya.

As far as I know I never said anything to lead a person to believe that that is the way I feel.

Besides that, haven't others pointed out that even if we have a D-2 post season, we will still most likely be playing a D-1 meatgrinder schedule?

[massillonmarine]

If enrollment numbers say we are supposed to be d2,3,4,5,or 6....I'd still want to be The Massillon Tigers and play a D1 schedule. If we were constantly getting our heads handed to us, I'd change my mind. BUT we are not....so keep it the way it is.

[DAWGH8R]

I was referring to their football program, not the city.

It may sound like I am personally in favor of staying in Division 1, but I haven't decided what I want to see happen.

What I have been trying to point out is that going to Division 2 will change our culture, a lot.
It bothers me that so many people seem to think that everything will remain the same if we switch, except we might have a better chance to win a championship.
There's no way things will remain the same.

The fact is that the decision will be made by people other that the posters on this forum.
What I have come to accept is that what will be will be, and I will not have much to say about it.

However, having said all that, I would dearly like to see us win it all once in Division 1 before we make the switch.

SEEKER,

The health of the city, ie., industry, unemployment , etc, is a direct trickle down effect on the school. If the steel mills don't close down, the people don't leave town, and the enrollment numbers stay high.

All things are relative !!

[shortbev]

comparing massillon to schools like steubenville or any others is like comparing apples and oranges...

there just aren't many like the tigers with the rich history and traditions...the fan base and the band...

most high schools are content with a few hundred or so people attending the games...we get ticked when we have less that 10 thousand

you cannot even find the intensity of massillon football at the college level...i had a friend who played for massillon many moons ago...he went to miami of ohio to play and quit after a very short while because things there just weren't at the same level as massillon...so, we are even bigger than some college teams...

settle for div II??? h....no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Obie Wan]

The health of the city, ie., industry, unemployment , etc, is a direct trickle down effect on the school.
Which might lead one to wonder why the current municipal government seems to focus the majority of its efforts on development outside the MCSD boundaries.

[tiger74]

? why can they not become part of our school district when we annex land as part of massillon city? I could see for larger cities having districts split up in the city but we are a small city.

[Obie Wan]

? why can they not become part of our school district when we annex land as part of massillon city? I could see for larger cities having districts split up in the city but we are a small city.
School district boundaries are set in Columbus. You can't just annex land from one district into another. If you could, don't you think that (at the least) we would have taken Meadows Plaza from Perry long ago?

[longtimefirsttime]

I have had the pleasure of attending the fine tailgating within the last 5 years. I used to work w/ M-town and he has me hooked. I try to regularly attend 4 games a year and all of the playoff games.
That being said, I love Massillon Tiger football and all its traditions but I don't consider myself a true "Tiger" b/c I only go to Massillon for the games and never went to school there. Most importantly, I don't live w/ the "vibe", if you will of going to Booster Club Meetings, Pep Rally's, Practices, etc.

I can not for the life of me understand why people would support a move to DII. And the only reason is inequities in enrollment and dare I say an easier path to a state title.
I hate to tell you supporters of dropping down to DII but if you do win a state title at that division Massillon can not and should not proclaim itself the best football team in the state of Ohio and therefore the country. That should always be reserved for the Big School winner.
And in regards to the "inequities", I can honestly say with my Catholic background in Greater Cleveland and having opportunities to go to a St. Ignatius, St. Ed's , Benedictine, etc. that at least 400 of those "1200 boys" at Iggy are not there for football nor do they know what one is nor is it there dream to play there like in Massillon.
You can find an uneven playing field in any aspect of High School Athletics.
My advice, for what's its worth, is to suck it up and play. Play the best this state has to offer during the grueling playoffs in November and earn the right to be called the Best Team in the State of Ohio. Don't look for a back door to the trophy room.

See you in 3 weeks!!!!

Despite being an "outsider" you seem to understand very well. Great post!

[CarlE]

Great freaking post. Perhaps those of you that DO live in Massillon and DID go to Massillon and DO bleed orange and black will take note. He has hit the nail on the head.

[AAC Stubber]

Massillon has a great history in high school football, where ever I have been in the US, Massillon is known for football. I went to Steubenville Big Red during the time when we could compete in the All American Conference with Massillon, Warren, McKinley, Alliance, and Niles. The yearly game with Massillon was always the most anticipated game of the year (unfortunately from my perspective, we usally lost, you guys spoiled state championships for us my freshman and sophomore years). We were competitive then, as the 70's wore on our city died a little more each year and we stopped being competive with bigger schools, so we dropped to Div II and to Div III.
Massillon should hold on to Div I for as long as you can. From my high school days I can remember beating Mckinley and a tie with Massillon and it felt good to play and win against the best competion in country in high school football. Steubenville has dropped from about 34,000 people when I lived there to about 19,000 now and for a city that size football is still in the blood and the teams play hard and win. I am proud of Big Red's Div II and Div III titles and look forward to another Div III title this year. But it would be nice to beat McKinley again and even have another shot at Massillon.

[DAWGH8R]

Hopefully you'll get your shot again!! I have always sung the praises of the BIG RED !!! Continued success for your program !!!!:cool2: :gogogo:

[91' alum]

:no2:

The Repository some December Sunday morning in the Future:

Above the fold Front Page:

"STATE CHAMPS!"
"McKinley Wins D1 Championship"

Page 4 of the Sports Section on that same day in December:

"Massillon Romps in DII Championship"

How disgusted you all would feel :puke:


The bad thing about this is... We wouldn't be in the same paper because we would have played on Fri night and put in the paper before them dogs even stepped on the field Sat. night where we belong!:cry: :furious:

[DAWGH8R]

The bad thing about this is... We wouldn't be in the same paper because we would have played on Fri night and put in the paper before them dogs even stepped on the field Sat. night where we belong!:cry: :furious:

OUCH !!:sour: