Division assignments 2007-2008

[The Butler]

http://www.thisweeknews.com/?edition=common&story=thisweeknews/072706/Powell/Sports/072706-Sports-195563.html

Don't know if any of you have seen this or not. There are some big changes coming to the way divisions in High School will be set up next year. For football, only the top 10% in enrollment will be Division 1. Schools can choose to move up to Division 1 if they choose though. If this should be in general, please move.

Any thoughts?

[scottyotc]

I was on my way in to post that Butler...lol

I agree its probably neccessary, but I dont like it. I would hope that we would choose the option of playing up.

[BigTime]

I couldn't open the link (maybe a firewall thing on my end).

[The Butler]

I don't usually post link to threads on yappi, but this one actually stays on the topic and has some good opinions.

http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121132

[scottyotc]

I was able to open it..must be a firewall thing...it comes as a pop up so Id check the blocker

[austinsm11]

How will people look at a school that becomes DII next year and decides not to play DI. If it is on a sport-by-sport basis, do you think the other sports (besides football and basketball) would play DII?

[scottyotc]

I really dont think they should be looked at negatively. The whole intent of this thing is to correct a huge inequity. To level the playing field a bit. Most of the schools stand absolutely no chance against The Iggys Eds X and Elders.

[Obie Wan]

How will people look at a school that becomes DII next year and decides not to play DI.
The same way they looked at schools that got moved down when OHSAA went from 3 divisions to 5 and when they went from 5 divisions to 6.

[GrowlingTiger87]

I wonder if there is any info out there that tells us how this breaks down, because I'm pretty positive that we're probably not in the top 10%. Do we opt up? When considering this, we must remember that we can only do it in 2 year intervals (if I understand it correctly). That means, unless we have a sudden big jump in students, we will most likely have to opt in for 2 years, and then get bumped back to division II.

UGH! I do agree that something needed done, but I'm not sure if I like it either. :stars:

[Obie Wan]

We're not in the top 10%. We'll be D2 unless we choose to play D1. Will we make that choice? That would normally be a given, but stranger things have happened.

[tiger51]

I didn't read the article but if you have the option to opt up then what is the big deal????just wondering?

[austinsm11]

The same way they looked at schools that got moved down when OHSAA went from 3 divisions to 5 and when they went from 5 divisions to 6.

Did these schools have the option to play up though or were they forced to play in their new division?

I hope it doesn't happen, but I could see alot of people being upset of we became a DII school but didn't bump up to DI in football and basketball.

If this is on a sport-by-sport basis, I would think it would be good for the other sports to be DII.

I guess my point was what if two nearby schools or rival schools are in this situation, one plays DI and the other plays DII. The DII school goes far in the play-offs or even wins the state championship. I am sure they will get comments from the DI school about "big deal but they can't cut it in DI like we are."

[Obie Wan]

Did these schools have the option to play up though or were they forced to play in their new division?
No option. Of course, there are about 650 schools in Ohio that will have the option of moving up to D1. Are they all chicken?

I hope it doesn't happen, but I could see alot of people being upset of we became a DII school but didn't bump up to DI in football and basketball.

If this is on a sport-by-sport basis, I would think it would be good for the other sports to be DII.
I see no reason to go D1 in basketball or any other sport.

I guess my point was what if two nearby schools or rival schools are in this situation, one plays DI and the other plays DII. The DII school goes far in the play-offs or even wins the state championship. I am sure they will get comments from the DI school about "big deal but they can't cut it in DI like we are."
I learned a long time ago not to worry about idiots. Don't worry about what others might say - just do what's best for you.

[Spize]

The fans, coaches, players, and other students will want to go D1, but the Admin will pick DII

Bet me.

[austinsm11]

No option. Of course, there are about 650 schools in Ohio that will have the option of moving up to D1. Are they all chicken?

Of course not. I am refering to the schools that are DI currently. It would probably be better for some of the smaller DI schools to go to DII. I am just curious of what might be said in the situation I had described.

I agree about not worrying about what others think, but can you imagine what would be said if Massillon dropped to DII and won the state championship.

Would any DIII or lower teams try to go DI?

Also, how many divisions are there in other sports such as basketball? Aren't there only 2-3 depending on the sport? I wonder what numbers they would be looking at for the other sports. Would we have to remain DI in the other sports? I just glanced at the article, so I am just curious.

[Spize]

Also, what really needs to happen? Private schools and Religious private schools need to be excluded from the OHSAA altogether. The need their own athletic association. That would solve a LOT of the disparity problems IMHO.

Before someone points out some schools have open enrollment and some don't and want to argue that, Schools that have or don't have open enrollment choose that.

With all the seperation of Church and State wonks out there I am surprised some crazy lib organization isn't throwing a fit already.

[Spize]

Of course not. I am refering to the schools that are DI currently. It would probably be better for some of the smaller DI schools to go to DII. I am just curious of what might be said in the situation I had described.

I agree about not worrying about what others think, but can you imagine what would be said if Massillon dropped to DII and won the state championship.

Would any DIII or lower teams try to go DI?

Also, how many divisions are there in other sports such as basketball? Aren't there only 2-3 depending on the sport? I wonder what numbers they would be looking at for the other sports. Would we have to remain DI in the other sports? I just glanced at the article, so I am just curious.

Some of the private DIII that can hand pick their players would. D1 will become a private school dominated (more than now) playoff system. (BTW, last year Cleveland Benedictine had more computer points than we did.)

[austinsm11]

Benedictine is who came to my mind also.

I agree about the private schools needing to be seperated from the public schools.

I also wonder how this plan could change the regions teams are in.

[longtimefirsttime]

The fans, coaches, players, and other students will want to go D1, but the Admin will pick DII

Bet me.

Please oh please say it ain't so. I'm sure not going to bet you on that.

[Fats]

I would hate to see our Tigers go to Div. II. Just wouldn't be the same. If the administration would chose Div. II, I think a lot of the fan base would do some loud complaining. The Tigers should play the Div. I schedule and if in two years we go back to Div II just keep playing the Div. I schedule and in two years back to Div I. We have consistently been a winning team even if we are a small Div. I school. Our Tigers have the skills, the size, and the ability to play Div. I.

[tiger#22]

The fans, coaches, players, and other students will want to go D1, but the Admin will pick DII

Bet me.

Why would the Admin pick div 2?

[GrowlingTiger87]

But like I mentioned before, even if we chose Div I, we could only do it two years in a row, and unless there was a serious bump in enrollment, we'd eventually have to drop to Div II. Under the new rules, would we really have a choice?

[austinsm11]

But like I mentioned before, even if we chose Div I, we could only do it two years in a row, and unless there was a serious bump in enrollment, we'd eventually have to drop to Div II. Under the new rules, would we really have a choice?

So we couldn't choose DI every two years? We would be forced to DII after the first two years?

[liner]

......this something we all knew was coming....massillon will simply go with the flow
......how could anyone call a program chicken for not playing schools over twice your size?.....i am sure the tigers will continue a mostly div 1 regular season schedule for as long as possible....

[longtimefirsttime]

But like I mentioned before, even if we chose Div I, we could only do it two years in a row, and unless there was a serious bump in enrollment, we'd eventually have to drop to Div II. Under the new rules, would we really have a choice?

If that scenario would occur, I would hope they would elect to play D-1. Then I would hope there are enough students to remain there when the numbers are evaluated two years later.

[scottyotc]

If that scenario would occur, I would hope they would elect to play D-1. Then I would hope there are enough students to remain there when the numbers are evaluated two years later.

I bet we would be able to reenroll after the 2 yr period....under the new system ...a d6 team could choose to play D1 .......

[scottyotc]

when you "declare" you must do so for 2yrs ...I dont think there is a limit on the number of times you can "declare" your intent....

We are Massillon.........

[mmauthor]

Would Massillon fans be less proud of a Division II state title?

[longtimefirsttime]

when you "declare" you must do so for 2yrs ...I dont think there is a limit on the number of times you can "declare" your intent....

We are Massillon.........

I hope they declare for eternity.

[longtimefirsttime]

Would Massillon fans be less proud of a Division II state title?

Yes, IF they had an option to play D-1 and chose to play D-2. If they're forced to play D-2, that's another story. In that scenario a title is a title.

[xtiger]

What an interesting adjustment by OHSAA! We'll see how it shakes out.

I can definately see the cons, as well as pros for Massillon. The debate
of whether to stay D1, could rival that of Massillon joining the Federal League.

Regardless, I will remain rabid!

[austinsm11]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmauthor
Would Massillon fans be less proud of a Division II state title?


Yes, IF they had an option to play D-1 and chose to play D-2. If they're forced to play D-2, that's another story. In that scenario a title is a title.

I agree.

[kenhrln]

I know no one will like this. But all I know is that we sure havn't seen a championship for 35 years. What that means. I feel it just may be something to think hard about.
I am a TIGER fan sorry. Just my own thought

[longtimefirsttime]

I understand your position. But in many fan's minds D-1 is the premier division. And the Tigers CAN win titles in D-1.

[liner]

I understand your position. But in many fan's minds D-1 is the premier division. And the Tigers CAN win titles in D-1.

........what is down the road in 07-08?......and would not the administration take the coach's advice?.......everyone always wants a level field so i think having the option of d1 or d2 every 2 years is a plus....i have noticed the lower divisions celebrate just like the big boys when they win a title

[xtiger]

Just how long has it been since we have won the State Title? OUCH!

[austinsm11]

We made it to the state finals last year. We can compete and win against teams like McKinley, St. Eds, Harding, etc. Why would we want choose to go DII? If we are having trouble competing because of our low numbers, then I can see going DII. But we have the ability to win at DI so that is where we need to stay in my opinion.

Going back and forth between DI and DII I think would make it look like we were ducking competition on years we didn't feel we had as strong a team. I think this would be the worst thing we could do. If we go DII we need to stay there for awhile. If DI is the top 10% of the largest schools, I don't see us fitting into the category any time soon. I don't see our numbers growing dramatically in a 2 year span, so why would we decide to move back up to DI in 2 years?

But as I mentioned before, I feel we can compete and WIN in DI, so stay DI.

[austinsm11]

I know no one will like this. But all I know is that we sure havn't seen a championship for 35 years. What that means. I feel it just may be something to think hard about.
I am a TIGER fan sorry. Just my own thought

You make it sound like winning a state title is easy. How many DI schools have done it?

How long since the Browns, Cavs, or Indians have won a title? Maybe they should drop to lower divisions.

[Obie Wan]

And the Tigers CAN win titles in D-1.
Although I share the sentiment, a more objective analysis might be a little more tempered. There's an old baseball saying: "Potential means you ain't done it yet."

Personally, I think much depends how how we do this year. If we're up among the elite again (13+ games, 2 or fewer losses), it will show that we can play at that level. Lose 3 or 4 with an early exit? That won't make a very convincing case for playing up.

The wild card in all of this is the administration and the personalities therein. Don't overlook those egos. As much as some have tried to nickle and dime the football program to death, they would still like to be able to claim some small part of the credit for a state title. If that title comes in D2, well...

[austinsm11]

Here are the schools who have won and the number of times they have won since 1972:

Warren Western Reserve 1
Youngstown Cardinal Mooney 1
Warren Harding 2
Cin. Moeller 7
Cin. Princeton 3
Canton McKinley 3
Toledo St. Francis de Sales 1
Fairfield 1
St. Ignatius 9
Lima Senior 1
Upper Arlington 1
Cin. Elder 2
Cin. Colerain 1
Cin. St. Xavier 1

It looks like there have only been 14 schools who have won. A majority of these wins were not from public schools. Maybe instead of looking at a numbers debate it should go back to the public vs. private debate.

If we go DII, should we be scheduling DI teams then? If we are too small of a school to compete in DI play-offs then maybe most of the teams we schedule should be DII and lower. We can get rid of Harding, St. Eds, St. Ignatius, Mentor, Moeller, etc.

[kenhrln]

I never thought that Massillon can't compete with the big boys. Last season was great. I'll take it any time. Was an awsome season to watch great football.
That post is just my thought. I would totally love to see a State Title in D1 more than D2. Every year,that is what I hope for.
I was a sophmore the last time we won the Title. (1970). It is just 35 years is a long time. Makes me wonder. Thats all. Don't take it personel.
I love Tiger football

[longtimefirsttime]

Personally, I think much depends how how we do this year. If we're up among the elite again (13+ games, 2 or fewer losses), it will show that we can play at that level. Lose 3 or 4 with an early exit? That won't make a very convincing case for playing up.


I'm just glad this wasn't implemented around 2003 & 2004. :grinning:

[longtimefirsttime]

I never thought that Massillon can't compete with the big boys. Last season was great. I'll take it any time. Was an awsome season to watch great football.
That post is just my thought. I would totally love to see a State Title in D1 more than D2. Every year,that is what I hope for.
I was a sophmore the last time we won the Title. (1970). It is just 35 years is a long time. Makes me wonder. Thats all. Don't take it personel.
I love Tiger football

I don't take it personal at all. It's great to share ideas about Tiger football. Yes last season was special. That's why you never stop believing.

[scottyotc]

Id rather go another 35 years without a D1 title than except a trophy case full of D2 titles .....and we would have a trophy case full of D2 titles ....Lebanon couldnt whip us in a down year....

[scottyotc]

We are Massillon.....that still means something doesnt it...

[scottyotc]

MASSILLON....win lose or draw Massillon always.............

[pup pounder]

All i know is you have to have the athletes or numbers for a deep run in the playoffs consistently.1200 boys aginst 560 just does not seem fair.Sure i would like to win it all in D1. But i would also enjoy multiple championships in D2.We could still schedual the best of the best.Maybe they could go division 1a _ 1b? I believe the answer is seperate playoffs myself.

[Kamd50]

I like this quote from Coach Nolan at Troy High School

"Some of the bottom of the top division would drop down, and competition-wise, I think it would make things more equal, I guess," he said. "But there's nothing wrong with playing the biggest dogs. ... There's something magical about being a Division I coach."


Troy High School football coach Steve Nolan doesn't want to play in Division II — even if enrollment dictates a move.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/preps/daily/072906ohsaa.html

I hope Massillon never goes Div II.

[Red50Go]

Does it mean anything that Lebron and St. V were never div.1 champs? No. If our enrollment is div.2 we should play in div.2. We have been a major force in div.1 despite coming up short in 3 title games, and have nothing to be ashamed of so get that out of your head. How we schedule would not change 1 bit - just like Benedictine, Mooney, Ursuline, Desales, Buchtel at times take on the big boys too (I realize most our private but c'mon we're Massillon). We would still play the WGH's, Mckinleys, 1 or 2 big private schools, etc. State Champ is state champ. Ask other programs like the ones I mentioned, or Steubenville last year, how they felt. The enrollment and district population in many smaller steel towns is a reality we need to accept.

Of course my first wish is for a visionary Administration or whatever forces would increase our enrollement to 600 plus, but if not, check your false pride and bravado and deal w/ reality and to heck w/ the naysayers. The ones who would criticize are just bent on not seeing us succeed or win titles and they know thats exactly what we'd do.

[austinsm11]

Does it mean anything that Lebron and St. V were never div.1 champs?

Basketball is a little different...you only need what, 12 players. And of those 12, how many play? Some teams only go 6 deep. Football needs many more players. I would also say the risk for injury is a little higher in football, so you also need quality backups.

Let me ask this, didn't St. V lose in the championship game one year after moving to DII? What if the following year they could have gone down a division due to numbers and they won the championship. How would that look?



Yes a state champ is a state champ. But we have shown we can compete with the bigger schools.

Let me ask this. What PUBLIC school in the state of Ohio would we have trouble competing with on a year-in-year-out basis?

[tiger#22]

Does it mean anything that Lebron and St. V were never div.1 champs? No. If our enrollment is div.2 we should play in div.2. We have been a major force in div.1 despite coming up short in 3 title games, and have nothing to be ashamed of so get that out of your head. How we schedule would not change 1 bit - just like Benedictine, Mooney, Ursuline, Desales, Buchtel at times take on the big boys too (I realize most our private but c'mon we're Massillon). We would still play the WGH's, Mckinleys, 1 or 2 big private schools, etc. State Champ is state champ. Ask other programs like the ones I mentioned, or Steubenville last year, how they felt. The enrollment and district population in many smaller steel towns is a reality we need to accept.

Of course my first wish is for a visionary Administration or whatever forces would increase our enrollement to 600 plus, but if not, check your false pride and bravado and deal w/ reality and to heck w/ the naysayers. The ones who would criticize are just bent on not seeing us succeed or win titles and they know thats exactly what we'd do.

If the OHSAA changes the enrollment figures and Massillon drops to Div 2 then they have no choice BUT if they have a choice and the choose Div 2 then that is weak and that is how the rest of the State will look at Massillon. If you thought the "do anything to win a title" quote was somewhat going away since Shepas left how do you think it will look if Massillon has the choice and drops down a division "just to win a title".......

[liner]

If the OHSAA changes the enrollment figures and Massillon drops to Div 2 then they have no choice BUT if they have a choice and the choose Div 2 then that is weak and that is how the rest of the State will look at Massillon. If you thought the "do anything to win a title" quote was somewhat going away since Shepas left how do you think it will look if Massillon has the choice and drops down a division "just to win a title".......

..........since when has the the rest of the state looked kindly to massillon because they play div.1?.....i would rather have a stacy div2 title then an import ridden shepas type big title champ.......massillon has the old time class it lost after owens left......my opinion...

[Obie Wan]

There will be 650 schools in Ohio that have the option of playing D1. Why should Massillon be singled out if they don't make the choice?

Personally, I think OHSAA should keep the new alignment and dump the option.

[austinsm11]

Because we can compete. Again, what Public school can we not compete with year after year?

I do think that schools will be talked about, but other schools don't get the attention that Massillon does.

I just feel like it is more of a public/private debate.

[Obie Wan]

The public/private debate is irrelevent, as the privates are in D1 for the forseeable future. The question is whether Massillon can reasonably expect to win a title in D1 as it is currently constituted. There is 34 years of evidence that would seem to argue against that proposition. That is not to say that it can't happen, or that it won't happen - but would you put a lot on money on a bet that it will happen?

The real question is this: just how competitive do you want to be? And what do you mean by "compete"? Would you rather win a regional championship in D1 or a state title in D2?

[scottyotc]

You realize that your location makes you appear stupid.... right.....Oh I guess you think its cute.

You're wrong.

[austinsm11]

The public/private debate is irrelevent, as the privates are in D1 for the forseeable future.
True, it doesn't seem that private schools will have their own division any time soon. You mention 34 years of evidence that we haven't done it. How many schools have won it? It seems like only 14 have won, with a majority of wins coming from private schools (which is why I say public/private, but as you mentioned that doesn't seem like it is going to happen). How many large schools have not won the DI football title? Quite a few!

Let's say that by competing I mean by going 8-2 or better every year. In the last 7 years we have done this 5 times I believe. We did have a few down years 03-04, but what program doesn't go through a few bad years. We also made the play-offs those 5 times.

We have defeated some very good DI teams in this span.

Personally, I would prefer a DI regional championship over a DII state championship. I guess this is my opinion and you can agree or disagree.

Also, if we drop to a lower division, who is to say private schools like Benedictine won't be in our division. Our toughest opponenets seem to be the private schools. Why not battle them in DI?

[tiger#22]

There will be 650 schools in Ohio that have the option of playing D1. Why should Massillon be singled out if they don't make the choice?

Personally, I think OHSAA should keep the new alignment and dump the option.

Massillon would be singled out because they are Massillon,,,Read Tiger Don's excellent article on this situation...
Would you want this kind of a situation,,,Massillon beats Mckinley week 10, Massillon makes it to the Div 2 title game and beats Cincinnati Mount Healthy the Bulldogs make it to the Div 1 title game and beat Elder...Do we really want to spend all winter asking "What if" ???

[tiger#22]

Would you rather win a regional championship in D1 or a state title in D2?
I would take a Div 1 regional championship EVERY year over any title in any other Division. I would rather watch a Massillon vs St Ed's, Glenville or Ignatius in a Semi Final Div 1 game then sit through a Tigers vs Avon Lake or Cincinnati Mount Healthy title game.
Last year during any game against Ig or Mentor or Warren or Mckinley or St Ed's or St X, all schools which have almost double the boys that Massilon has, did you ever sit there and say wow the Tigers just wont be able to compete with this team?? Answer the ? since we all know how you love to avoid the obvious.

[Obie Wan]

Would you want this kind of a situation,,,Massillon beats Mckinley week 10, Massillon makes it to the Div 2 title game and beats Cincinnati Mount Healthy the Bulldogs make it to the Div 1 title game and beat Elder...Do we really want to spend all winter asking "What if" ???
Let's look at it another way: you could also spend the entire winter knowing that you had beaten McKinley on your way to a state title. Or this: would you rather spend the winter saying "What if?" or "Not again."?

[Die Hard Eric]

i personally would hate to see the Tigers drop to DII. we take enough crap about not winning a title in the last 36 years, i personally don't want to hear any additional crap that will make me want to hurt someone!

-dhe

[tiger#22]

Let's look at it another way: you could also spend the entire winter knowing that you had beaten McKinley on your way to a state title. Or this: would you rather spend the winter saying "What if?" or "Not again."?

The problem would be Mckinley would have won the title Massillon has wanted, not to mention the fact we would still be playing and beating most of the teams that would be in the Div 1 playoffs. Does Massillon really want the Federal League teams having a chance at a Div 1 title while Massillon doesnt?

As I said in my previous post we all knew you would avoid the ? about last season and the teams the Tigers played and beat...

[tiger74]

the way I look at it is most of the fed schools will stay div 1: so lets look at our record against the fed schools.
1.fitch: 13-5 {651} { }denotes number of boys from 2004
2.mckinley: 60-49-5 {819}
3.glenoak: 4-1 {811}
4:hoover: 3-0 {644}
5:jackson: 3-0 {680}
6:perry: 10-2 {645}
we have not played boardman: so are total record is 93-57-5.
ok now the other div. 1 schools that are not in the fed
1.fairfield: 1-0 {1181}
2.findlay: 3-0 {768}
3.grove city: 1-0 {699}
4.mansfield sr.: 43-4-5 {632}
5.marion harding: 1-1 {630}
6.middletown: 1-2 {747}
7.mentor: 4-1 {1348}
8.pickerington: 1-0 {1048} note that when you combine north {627} and central {421} you get the 1048 number they were combined in 02.
9.upper arlington: 2-4 {756}
10.warren harding: 46-21-3 {651}
11.eastlake north: 3-0 {629}
so these numbers would be 106-33-8
now on to the catholic schools
1.cincinnati moeller: 2-9 {724}
2.toledo st. johns: 1-0 {605}
3.cincinnati elder: 5-0 {833}
4.lakewood st. eds.: 3-2 {703}
5.cleveland st. ignatius: 1-8 {1085}
6.cincinnati st. xavier: 0-1 {1111}
are record here is 12-20 {not good numbers against the catholic schools}
the numbers against non catholic schools is {199-90-13}, were as are total numbers against everybody non catholic and catholic is {211-110-13}.that is over 101 more wins then our opponents have who by the way have more students then we do. to me I say stay in div 1 because we CAN compete.:no1: :tig:

[Obie Wan]

Does Massillon really want the Federal League teams having a chance at a Div 1 title while Massillon doesnt?
Why would anyone in Massillon (besides you) really care what the Federal League does? :wtf:

Really, it sounds to me like there's an entire argument that's based on what other people might think of us. I, for one, don't care. Why do any of you?

[tiger74]

Because we can compete. Again, what Public school can we not compete with year after year?

I do think that schools will be talked about, but other schools don't get the attention that Massillon does.

I just feel like it is more of a public/private debate.
are 199-90-13 record indicates we are able to have success against all public schools because that is more then 109 more wins then are public schools.I don't know about other schools but are tigers don't have a good record against catholics and that is why some are bringing up this debate. so yes I agree with you austinsm11.

[austinsm11]

Well, for all the bashing people do of the federal league, I think it would be embarrassing if they won a DI title and we didn't. Less teams in DI would improve their chances.

Thanks for those numbers Tiger74! Again, since it didn't get answered, we can compete with any other DI public school in Ohio. Even with the catholic schools factored in, we still have a very good record.

[Obie Wan]

Again, since it didn't get answered, we can compete with any other DI public school in Ohio.

Again, that's nice, but it's not really germane to a playoff discussion - because the big privates are in the playoffs.

Even with the catholic schools factored in, we still have a very good record.
Massillon's playoff record against private schools is 3-8. And aren't the playoffs what we're talking about here?

Anyway, there seems to be a fundamental inconsistency in this discussion. A lot of people seem to favor not playing the privates in the post-season, but only if OHSAA throws them out. We've got an opportunity to accompish the same thing here, but it's unacceptable because of what other people might think? Are public perception or catty internet comments really that big of a deal? Do you really want to base our competitive decisions on the prevailing opinion on Yappi?

[austinsm11]

So what are the benefits of DII? We can finally win a championship. What DII teams would we have to compete against? Don't get me wrong, there are some good teams, but it would be much easier to win at DII. Shouldn't we want to challenge ourselves? It shouldn't be easy to win a championship.

Yes, I would like the private schools thrown out. But I would rather play them and have moments like this past year than to go down to DII.

Also, you implied that we can't compete with big schools. Obviously we can...at least the ones that don't recruit.

[Obie Wan]

So what are the benefits of DII? We can finally win a championship. What DII teams would we have to compete against? Don't get me wrong, there are some good teams, but it would be much easier to win at DII. Shouldn't we want to challenge ourselves? It shouldn't be easy to win a championship.
Let's rephrase:

So what are the benefits of throwing out the privates? We can finally win a championship. What DI teams would we have to compete against? Don't get me wrong, there are some good teams, but it would be much easier to win without the privates. Shouldn't we want to challenge ourselves? It shouldn't be easy to win a championship.

[longtimefirsttime]

Are public perception or catty internet comments really that big of a deal? Do you really want to base our competitive decisions on the prevailing opinion on Yappi?

Although we have differing views, I get your point.

Those type of comments are simply an annoyance and should have no bearing on any decisions that are made. There are obviously good teams at all levels. But D-1 is perceived as the premier division. And Massillon is considered a premier program. So as far as I'm concerned that is where they should be. And if their next title win is over a large D-1 private school that will make it even more satisfying.

[scottyotc]

Again, that's nice, but it's not really germane to a playoff discussion - because the big privates are in the playoffs.


Massillon's playoff record against private schools is 3-8. And aren't the playoffs what we're talking about here?

Anyway, there seems to be a fundamental inconsistency in this discussion. A lot of people seem to favor not playing the privates in the post-season, but only if OHSAA throws them out. We've got an opportunity to accompish the same thing here, but it's unacceptable because of what other people might think? Are public perception or catty internet comments really that big of a deal? Do you really want to base our competitive decisions on the prevailing opinion on Yappi?


nah Id wanna base it on what Paul Brown would think............we are Massillon right?

[scottyotc]

he'd die before going d2.....wouldnt he.....be honest

we are torch bearers.....Obie Wan Im sorry you dont understand this

intellectually disembowling.....shut up:thanx:

[austinsm11]

Let's rephrase:

So what are the benefits of throwing out the privates? We can finally win a championship. What DI teams would we have to compete against? Don't get me wrong, there are some good teams, but it would be much easier to win without the privates. Shouldn't we want to challenge ourselves? It shouldn't be easy to win a championship.

Fair enough, good point.
The benefits of throwing out the privates? Well, I guess things would be more on an even playing field since all of the DI's left couldn't recruit. I feel this is much more of an advantage than size of a school. We would have to compete against Harding, McKinley, Mentor, Upper Arlington, Findlay, Brunswick, Elyria, Glenville, Hudson, Lima Senior, Marion Harding, Middletown, Colerain, Hamilton, Solon, Brookhaven, Gahanna Lincoln, Hilliard Davidson, Westerville South, Lancaster, and others.
Hopefully I didn’t throw in a private school by accident. I also didn’t double check to see if any of these schools might be going down to DII.

Your turn.

[scottyotc]

nah he gets no turn....he just needs to shut up

[austinsm11]

Well, he did make a valid point. I will give him that.

I don't know why he chose not to answer my question first, however. This seems to be a habit.

[Obie Wan]

The benefits of throwing out the privates? Well, I guess things would be more on an even playing field since all of the DI's left couldn't recruit. ... We would have to compete against Harding, McKinley, ... Elyria, Glenville, ... Colerain, Hamilton, ... Brookhaven, ... and others.

That would be McKinley (with their 4 new transfers), Warren (of Mo Clarrett, etc.), Elyria (and their new transfer RB(?)), Colerain (where's Gary Pride from again?), Brookhaven (Columbus all-stars, anyone?). And Glenville? Seriously, now, which of these schools "couldn't recruit"?

And yeah, I'd take my shot against those guys anyway - but for the 3rd time, that's a hypothetical argument with no bearing on reality. The fact of the matter is that we're fortunate that we will be in R2 with only one mid-tier private to worry about. In most years, it should be us, McKinley, and whatever blind pig or two has their team of the decade that year. When we get out of the region, though, it's a different ballgame. It's likely that a state title will involve winning two games in a row in which we are decided underdogs. Can we do it? Sure - and I like our odds a lot better with this coaching staff. After all, Massillon's reputation was built on out-gutting the other guy, and we've got some big stones on the team this year. Will we? That's a different question entirely.

And who knows? We may actually have a "team for the ages" that is the favorite. But the question is: how long do you want to wait for that year?

[austinsm11]

Hasn't Massillon had transfers as well? I don't think you can compare the recruiting that the Private schools can do to the few that public schools aren't suppossed to be doing.

And yeah, I'd take my shot against those guys anyway - but for the 3rd time, that's a hypothetical argument with no bearing on reality. The fact of the matter is that we're fortunate that we will be in R2 with only one mid-tier private to worry about. In most years, it should be us, McKinley, and whatever blind pig or two has their team of the decade that year. When we get out of the region, though, it's a different ballgame. It's likely that a state title will involve winning two games in a row in which we are decided underdogs. Can we do it? Sure - and I like our odds a lot better with this coaching staff. After all, Massillon's reputation was built on out-gutting the other guy, and we've got some big stones on the team this year. Will we? That's a different question entirely.

So if essentially all we have to do is win two games where we are underdogs after we duke it out with Mckinley and a team having a good year, why not stay DI? If we are that close, why go to DII?

[tiger74]

they want to even the playing field then the catholics should have a certain area to choose from. not going out of state like moe or having 7 counties to choose from. why do you think moe hasn't won or had great teams since there area was limited!! some kids are going to eds now so iggy has less to choose from. so this combined with a tough schedule has lead them to not one or two loses but 3-4 loses. I guess columbus has an area to choose from where as cleveland don't!!! not sure on cincy. but down there you have moe,elder,and xavier so the kids would be split up more. I don't know if st. johns is in are region but the only catholics we would have to face would be from a different region. so we wouldn't have to see them until the semifinals. the only team we should lose to in are region is mckinley.I would rather make it to the final four every year then play in div. 2. we are a DIV. 1 team not div. 2. winning in the lower division would suck and we would lose are luster. we spent over 100 years beating TOP teams and I for one want to keep doing that by staying in division 1.. do you really think people will continue to be impressed with are team if we go down a division and no longer play iggy,moe,elder,eds, and xavier in the playoffs. we didn't get to 767 wins by lowering are standers. if we did that back when we would always lose to canton, then we probably would have quit playing them.:furious:

[longtimefirsttime]

That would be McKinley (with their 4 new transfers), Warren (of Mo Clarrett, etc.), Elyria (and their new transfer RB(?)), Colerain (where's Gary Pride from again?), Brookhaven (Columbus all-stars, anyone?). And Glenville? Seriously, now, which of these schools "couldn't recruit"?

And yeah, I'd take my shot against those guys anyway - but for the 3rd time, that's a hypothetical argument with no bearing on reality. The fact of the matter is that we're fortunate that we will be in R2 with only one mid-tier private to worry about. In most years, it should be us, McKinley, and whatever blind pig or two has their team of the decade that year. When we get out of the region, though, it's a different ballgame. It's likely that a state title will involve winning two games in a row in which we are decided underdogs. Can we do it? Sure - and I like our odds a lot better with this coaching staff. After all, Massillon's reputation was built on out-gutting the other guy, and we've got some big stones on the team this year. Will we? That's a different question entirely.

And who knows? We may actually have a "team for the ages" that is the favorite. But the question is: how long do you want to wait for that year?

Once again I understand your position. How long do I want to wait? Through week 15 of the season. How long will I wait? As long as I'm living and breathing. I hope it's the former and not the latter.

[tigers17]

sometimes i think we have to do right thing for are kids .And to move down
just might be the thing we need to kick start this !!!!!!!!! PS its not for you are me it"s for the Kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ers:

[monte81]

We should have ahave at least 2 titles from the Shepis days! The complete breakdown against Perry in 1999, the 2 semifinals games we should have won against Iggy and Harding! 1988 when we had a great team and was on probation!In 1989 & 1991 against Iggy were heartbreakers we should have won! Last year we fought hard and was in it all the way. We have not won championships because our teams have made a few mistakes or coaching decisions that have cost us. We have the talent and heart to compete and win at any division. The private vs. public,and open enrollment are all good viewpoints however we just have to step up and get it done in whatever division we play. The 2006 season is less than a month away and we are predicted by several writers and so called experts to be in the hunt and i think this is the year to shup up all the haters!!!!

[WarrenFootball]

Warren Harding will be D2 in 07 and Warren Howland will be D1. Harding had 651 last year will be around 600 or less by 07.

[UnionTiger]

I can not understand why so many people in this town get so worried or bent out of shape when DII is mentioned. If all is based on enrollment then that is how we should go. If we had more people (students) in the city, we could be DI and not have the choice. I think we should take the DII and run with it. We could have how many more or atleast finally one on the field with the playoff system. Yeah people will say stuff but all you do is show them the trophy and say do you have it this year. A win is a win, go ask Central Cath. to give all theirs back and bump up. NOT!! Go ask Jack Rose how it felt and all of ST. Thomas, and see if they will give it up. NOT!! Or any other "small" school not in DI. They won it, it felt awesome and it didn't cross their mind that it was not DI. Things have changed in the area as well as other places We need to take advantage of what we do have, "A powerfull DII school that has been playing up", and dominate like we should. Or is everyone afraid that we just may get beat by a DII school. Guess what that has happend already and we still survived...we got beat by DIII schools before and we bounced back to win !3 games in a season last year. Competition is competition and if the numbers are not even you know what happens most often. When you play teams equal to your enrollment nobody can say a thing. If they do, again show them the trophy and say WE ARE STATE CHAMPS ARE YOU!

[Red50Go]

Some of these comments baffle me. If I worried so much about public perception I'd be in the state hospital by now. Of course some will ride us for not "opting up" but they sure as hell wont pat us the back if we do. Does anyone give us any credit now for competing in div. 1 w/ a small enrollment? Uhhh, no. Its more like "paper-champs, has-beens, over-rated, chokers". These are the people YOU are worried about??? Do what is right for the kids and not your inflated ego.

If winning a div.2 title is so incredibly easy then go win a couple THEN move up.

Either that or mf, adm & boe better get off their dead arses and get our enrollment up because if we are div.2 and yet opt for div.1 then we open ourselves to more ridicule than you even realize.

[Red50Go]

Warren Harding will be D2 in 07 and Warren Howland will be D1. Harding had 651 last year will be around 600 or less by 07.

I feel for ya but it may not be THAT soon. We haven't seen 600 in a month of Sundays.

[austinsm11]

Just curious, but do what do warren fans want to see with their program? Should they opt up for DI or go to DII?

[Al.]

It is my understanding that the division assignments for 2007 will be based on the enrollment as of the Fall of 2006.

[Grandma Turtle]

I believe in a level playing field for the kids. All the old timers, saying they want to stay D1 are selfish.

Being forced to compete against schools with double the enrollment is unfair. Thats why there are Divisions.

Everyone wants a level playing field at work, for example. Who would want a boss that says... "You must do the work of 2 people or you will never get a raise or promotion.".........and what if you could get a job across the street where you compete on an even level & you get rewarded with promotions & winning...

Massillon has a Great Football Program but playing 15 games against teams with double the enrollment is tough & unfair. No depth. Most D1 teams replace injured players with juniors & seniors.

Massillon dips into the sophomores for bodies late in the year.

The kids (athletes in all sports) need educated on the Good & Bad of moving to D2. Let them vote. NOT KIDS OF JUST PEOPLE ON THIS WEB SITE. All the kids in all the sports at the school need to vote. (I can see all the "my kid wants to stay D1" posts coming now)

Are there any "bad reasons" except for Massillon Old Timers not wanting it for selfish reasons???

Massillon is the smallest D1 school in Stark County.We can still Help Out the cheating ...(oops) playing by unfair rules schools like St Ignatius, if ya want a couple games a year.

Lets see some more Championships for Massillon.

Lets see some more kids from Massillon with smiling faces holding up some more of those State Championship Trophies.

The old timers might scowl at that but I guarantee it would be one of the best sports moments in our Massillons kids High School Career. Something they would remember & be proud of their entire life.

I would say we had a great 5 year run. 2 Final 4's. 1 Final 2 Championship Game. Massillon has not had a 5 year run like that for a while has it?

I would rather have 3 D2 State Championships in the last 5 years.

D2 :usflag: .................................................. .................................................. ..........................D2:no1:

[austinsm11]

You think the kids wouldn't choose DI? I find that hard to believe.

Here is my analogy: You are a good student in school and work hard. Should you take a harder AP class where you will do well but it will be hard, yet possible to get an A. Many of the students in the class are smarter and get better grades, but if you work hard you can do as well as them. A majority of the time you get a B but you are working so hard and on occasion do get the A. Or should you take the easier class where the workload is easier and easier to get a good grade? Maybe you know that studying a half an hour instead of an hour will get you that B. You only have to put in a little extra effort to get the A

I would say we had a great 5 year run. 2 Final 4's. 1 Final 2 Championship Game.
This seems very competive to me. Just because we can't win the whole thing we should quit trying and go to DII so it will be easier to win a championship? Personally I think a better arguement for going to DII could be made with runs on the opposite end of the spectrum than what you provided. If we haven't been making the play-offs and are having season after bad season for several years, then I could see making the switch. The stats you provide show that we can compete with bigger schools.

Remember, a championship isn't suppossed to be easy.

[Grandma Turtle]

You think the kids wouldn't choose DI? I find that hard to believe.

Here is my analogy: You are a good student in school and work hard. Should you take a harder AP class where you will do well but it will be hard, yet possible to get an A. Many of the students in the class are smarter and get better grades, but if you work hard you can do as well as them. A majority of the time you get a B but you are working so hard and on occasion do get the A. Or should you take the easier class where the workload is easier and easier to get a good grade? Maybe you know that studying a half an hour instead of an hour will get you that B. You only have to put in a little extra effort to get the A


This seems very competive to me.

Your 1st point : Bad anology, in my opinion, because you have no linebackers trying to "smash your face off" in the classroom.

Physically, The D#1 playing field is unfair.

I would agree on your work ethic in the classroom, though.

**************

Point #2 Being competitive is another way of saying...... Never Winning

No wins in 30+ years is like when you have the best football program in the state but are......... Settling for a "C" because of unfair rules in D1.

[austinsm11]

Your 1st point : Bad anology, in my opinion, because you have no linebackers trying to "smash your face off" in the classroom.

Ummm, ok... are there linebackers at work trying to "smash your face off?"

Point #2 Being competitive is another way of saying...... Never Winning

Is it that easy to win? I only know of about 14 schools who have done it. I just don't understand this argument how people think it should be so easy to win.

I looked back over our records against the Catholic schools. Exclude the Moeller era and the St. Ignatius era and our record is ok against Catholics. Maybe, like another poster suggested, they won't be as dominate because of more private schools in Cinci drawing boys and St. Eds taking away from St. Ignatius.

[xtiger]

Just a thought.....Did OHSAA allow for the adjustment up, because:

1) They knew Massillon would want to play D1.
2) Without it, Massillon would dominate D2.

Just a thought!

[Red50Go]

We can and should still take "AP classes". I dont see how our schedule would change much, if at all. The only difference is in the playoffs we would compete against our peers. Actually, I think it would make regular season games vs div. 1 powers all the more exciting. Wins, much moreso than now, would garner the praise and acclaim the program (& the players) really deserve. Like I said, its not like anyone gives us any credit at all for being small & competitive - quite the opposite actually. And frankly, I dont think all of us realize the amount of pressure we put on these kids to win against such odds, for our own selfish & misguided reasons.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

Xtiger,

I just touched down on MassillonProud's lead writer about the Tigers being in Division 2. There is one perk that would be to Massillon's advantage if they were to shift to Division 2: the state championship game is played at Paul Brown Tiger Stadium!

Massillon at Division 2 would be problematic for other teams. At best, I would see the Tigers in region 6 if I am correct with my leads. I don't want to base references here but if you saw what Massillon did to Chardon back in 2005, that might be an indication of something.

Personally speaking though, I think Massillon is better off at Division I. The real intrigue is at the big school level but there are some fans who just might be allured at the thought of playing a state title game at home. Canton McKinley executed the feat at Division I and Massillon just might do that at Division II.

[Red50Go]

Just a thought.....Did OHSAA allow for the adjustment up, because:

1) They knew Massillon would want to play D1.
2) Without it, Massillon would dominate D2.

Just a thought!

I doubt they had Massillon in mind, but you do bring up a valid point. IMO, they should not allow that option because those schools should not be unfairly antagonized over it like they will, in many cases. OF COURSE we would get ribbed, but whats new???

[Grandma Turtle]

My work analogy was unfair conditions........

Your school analogy was fair conditions.......but work harder and you will be rewarded.

Massillon Football PROGRAM is the BEST. The players work very hard but get 0 Championships because of unfair conditions in Div 1.

I think mine was better than yours:upside: lol sorry. I know what you meant....and I got this guy at work ,that I would love to smash his face off... but thats another subject...

If practicing hard with the best coaches, in the best program, with the best fan support,with the best Booster Club, with a guy like Steve Studer as the rock in the weight room alot of those years.........AND YA STILL CAN'T WIN IT........

It might be the unfair rules of Division 1 Football.....

Massillon players are special because of the history of the program they play for .........because they are trained in the best football program in the country (in my opinion).............. but they are just kids. Not Supermen.

Let them play on a level playing field.

0 wins with all the great players and teams that has been through here............ says it all. Right :help:

[BigTime]

I have mixed feeling on the matter.

We need to do what is right by the kids in order for them to have the best possible experience while a Massillon Tiger. In my opinion the Massillon Football Experience is playing and winning vs. opponents of the highest caliber in the quest for a state championship. But the key point is winning. It would seem that our chances of winning during the postseason would increase when the monster schools are out of the picture. And none of us hear any complaints from the Steubenville fans as to the validity of their 2005 DIII State Championship.

Still, the mission of the Massillon Tiger Football has always been to unconditionally be the BEST in the State of Ohio.

Well see how it all pans out. I’m more concerned about getting our kids ready NOW for the 2006 season.

Go Tigers! Each game is a rung on the ladder. You advance one step at a time!:weightlift:

[Smitty]

True, it doesn't seem that private schools will have their own division any time soon.... Our toughest opponenets seem to be the private schools. Why not battle them in DI?

There will only be 6 D-1 private / parochial schools left: Ed, Iggy, Elder, Moe, X, and LaSalle. Of course, the others (St Francis, St John) COULD option up to play in D-1.

It'll be a snowy day in Hades when OHHSAA puts all the private / parochial schools in their own division.

Rhetorical question: Who was our "toughest opponent" in the 2000 playoffs?

[MTFootBall59]

WOW thats is some bull crap we r massillon u cant do that we better stay in d1 idk about anyone but id rather be a state runner up in d1 then a state champ in d 2 we always hang with the big dogs WE R THE BIG DOGS always its not all about the players its about the coaches too and we got good coaches and good players dont worrie massillion WE R BRINGGIN THE SHIP HOME THIS YEAR BABY

[TigerCoach]

I disagree with all of you about whether Massillon would be better off in Div.I or II. The number of kids in your school, or the number of kids on the sideline don't matter that much in determining how competitive your football team is. Sure, you may have more depth, but it's the quality of the depth that matters. It was posted in another thread, if enrollment numbers mattered, Kent State and Akron should beat Notre Dame every year.

The biggest problem with the OHSAA playoff system is allowing the parochial schools to pull talent from such a wide area. St. X had 130 kids on the team, and probably 105 never get there jersey dirty the whole season. They also travel quite a bit to get to school every day. But, if you can get the best 20-30 kids from a multi-county area, hell you should win most of the championships.

I met a girl this spring who lives in Dalton, Ohio and goes to Walsh Jesuit High School in Cuyahoga Falls. She said that it takes about an hour each way every day. I know people who live in Wadsworth and Medina who send their kids to St. Ignatius (West 25th and Lorain) in Cleveland. Can you imagine being a high school kid and having to fight rush hour traffic everyday?

I guess the parochial school versus public school is another topic, but going to Division II is just a copout!