Division assignments 2007-2008

[Benchboss1]

I'll tell YOU what the "big difference" is: We've been doing this for 110 years... Moe for 45, Iggy for 18. God-only-knows what they've done to get their brief moment in the spotlight... and it's comming to an end for them.[/QUOTE]






I am sorry Smitty, but your post only magnifies the problem. You are correct by saying that we have been doing this longer than almost everybody else, but therin lies the problem, in a longer time frame, we have not accomplished what those other schools that you mentioned have during the playoff era.

[ChronicTiger]

oops

[ChronicTiger]

Well Tiger22, if you are happy and content with counting final fours, then your theory is fantastic. However, most folks only care about who the champion is when it is all said and done with. Tell me, off the top of your head, who the 4 participants in the NFL conference championship games 3 years ago were.

may be mistaken but I thought you were crying a couple years ago because we were still playing the catholic schools. If this is the case I am not surprised you would be happy to play in a lower division.

NFL conference champs 3 years ago? Who in the heck even knows who won the super bowl three years ago? By the way who was the NCAA Division 1AA National Champ Last year? Who was the NCAA Division II champ a year ago?
Guess what, nobody knows and nobody cares!

I'm glad to hear you dont care about final fours or making it to the championship game.

your attitude is a joke!

:thumbsup:

[ChronicTiger]

I'll tell YOU what the "big difference" is: We've been doing this for 110 years... Moe for 45, Iggy for 18. God-only-knows what they've done to get their brief moment in the spotlight... and it's comming to an end for them.

I am sorry Smitty, but your post only magnifies the problem. You are correct by saying that we have been doing this longer than almost everybody else, but therin lies the problem, in a longer time frame, we have not accomplished what those other schools that you mentioned have during the playoff era.

We have been doing this the EXACT amount of time everyone else has......Since the begining of the playoff era.....

[austinsm11]

I am talking with respect to this season. Wouldn't they have rather been playing in the Finals than sitting at home? Was our season a failure, like you mentioned?

If we don't win the DII championship in the first couple of years, are you going to want to drop to DIII? or maybe we should play middle school teams instead. I bet we could get a trophy then :wall:


I still can't contemplate why dropping to DII. I would understand more if we had a run 10-15 years ago at state semifinals and finals and hadn't done much recently. But we have done all this in the last 5 years.


I highly doubt that your above statement is accurate. Keep in mind, the three schools that you named have all won a state championship during the play-off era. In case you missed the memo, we have NOT!!

So, please explain why they would be happy NOT winning the state championship after their program has already held the holy grail that we covet so much.

Not sure of this logic. Since they have won a championship any season that doesn't end in a championship is a failure? Maybe someone from McKinley can fill us in about how they felt losing in the DI championship. Was that season a failure? I bet if they won the state championship it would still be considered a failure year since they woudn't have won the national championship like before.:ohplease:

[MTown]

"It has taken many years and many people to create the finest football city, with the finest football traditions.... Now it is up to you, not only to live up those traditions but to improve upon them."

If we accept a move to Division II, are we doing that?

[austinsm11]

Great post ChronicTIger

:iagree:

[BigTime]

I have talked to a lot of Massillon Tiger football fans and players over the years and what we really want to do here boils down to having fun by winning ball games against top opponents in the quest for a state championship.

Based on Tiger Don’s analysis our best chances for advancing to the playoffs remain in division I. I think the debate ends there.

Now if we go 1-and-done in our next 5 playoff appearances, we want to revisit this issue. But for now, case closed; opt up to DI.

It is the mission of the Massillon Tigers to be the BEST high school football team in the state of Ohio. :trophy:

Go Tigers!:evil:

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

Tiger Don is a big reason why I read MassillonProud.com. He is so factual and accurate with his stories let alone the information he presents! This will be my sixth year reading his stories and he is the best writer MassillonProud.com has ever had!

[Smitty]

... we have not accomplished what those other schools that you mentioned have during the playoff era.

Stop.

Think.

Try to analyze rationally what got Moe & Iggy to the pinacle.

Coaching?
(Faust was a great motivator & disciplinarian, but couldn't hold Mather's jock-strap. Kyle's play calling can be predicted with a Magic 8-Ball.)

Recruiting?
(I really shouldn't address this, but we're really not behind in this regard. Let's just say that we've had more than sufficient talent on the field to win a couple of championships since '72.)

What's left??

[TigerVic]

There has been and is only ONE state champion in Ohio: Division I. Sure, there are lower divisional championships for those who are ineligible for the Div. I (just like in the college level).

While we have the opportunity for the Div. I title, we should use it.

We are not doing half bad so far. I'd rather be oh so close to the Div. I title (as we have had many teams that could have or actually should have won it all in the last 35 years) than have trophies that bore a division lower than what we could be competing in.

How many players off of last year's team (or from '91 or '02 or '77 or '82, etc.) sat down and bemoaned that they came short of the Div. I trophy when they could have easily won it all in Div. II or III? How many of them wished they could have traded places with Toledo Central Catholic than be playing and coming short against St. X? Why is the Div I played as the finale of the 6 games?

Once we lower the bar, it won't be raised again. It will just keep getting lower and lower.

[TigerVic]

How many great players who have the ability to play at, say OSU (which has a shot , but only a shot, nearly every year at the Big Ten or even national title) dream of playing for Mt. Union so they can have an almost guaranteed shot at that Div. III trophy?

Or even from a league perspective, how many of those players grow up throughout their lives dreaming of someday playing for Bowling Green and playing for that coveted MAC trophy??

[Benchboss1]

If ANY athlete, at ANY level, is willing to accept a season that does not produce a championship at the highest level in their respective age grouping as a success,is not the kind of athlete I would ever want on my team.

The whole reason that a season is played is to find a champion, plain and simple. So, yes, with all due respect to our kids and coaches from last year, last season, while thrilling and fun to watch, it did end up a failure.

Now, to address the comment from TigerVic about kids wanting to go to OSU to compete for a national championship at the highest level. First of all, let's compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. How many of those kids would make the same decision if other schools like Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Penn State, Miami of Florida, Michigan, etc. had close to three times as many players on scholarship as OSU had?

This whole argument centers around the egos of us fans. We all want us to win a division 1 state championship. The fact of the matter is, we are 0-35, while schools like our arch rival have won 3, St Ignatius has won 9, Moeller has won 7, I believe. Heck, even Fairfield has won one,while we sit back and count our final fours and state runner up finishes.

If ANY fan out there says that it is not their ego talking when they say that we CAN win a division 1 state title, they are lying.

[Benchboss1]

It's about Legends like Speilman Spencer Franklin Zwick Crable and soon to be added Dailey. We're not a DII team.[/QUOTE]




Have you noticed that NONE of the players you mentioned above have won a playoff state championship? :stars:

[austinsm11]

Have you noticed that NONE of the players you mentioned above have won a playoff state championship?

What does this have to do with anything? How many great professionals have never won a title? How many other great high school players never won a championship?

[Benchboss1]

Fair or not, great players are judged largely by how many championships their teams win. John Elway was always a great quarterback, but it took winning 2 super bowls to really cement his legacy. Dan Marino is still knocked by people for never winning a title. People still question just how good Peyton Manning is because he has not been able to lead his team to a super bowl appearance.

I do not know if you follow pro baseball or not, but Ernie Banks is almost always referred to as the greatest baseball player that has never won a world series.

[ChronicTiger]

Fair or not, great players are judged largely by how many championships their teams win. John Elway was always a great quarterback, but it took winning 2 super bowls to really cement his legacy. Dan Marino is still knocked by people for never winning a title. People still question just how good Peyton Manning is because he has not been able to lead his team to a super bowl appearance.

I do not know if you follow pro baseball or not, but Ernie Banks is almost always referred to as the greatest baseball player that has never won a world series.

Is Flutie great or one of the greatest because he has won grey cups?

[Kamd50]

I would have to strongly disagree with the statement about players being judged largely by the fact whether they ever won a championship or not. Players are ultimately judged on their own individual performances. Not winning a SuperBowl or World Series certainly never kept anyone out of their respective Hall of Fames. People may make a factual statement, referring to the fact, but not seriously base someone's career on that.

[Seeker]

There has been and is only ONE state champion in Ohio: Division I. Sure, there are lower divisional championships for those who are ineligible for the Div. I (just like in the college level).

While we have the opportunity for the Div. I title, we should use it.

We are not doing half bad so far. I'd rather be oh so close to the Div. I title (as we have had many teams that could have or actually should have won it all in the last 35 years) than have trophies that bore a division lower than what we could be competing in.

How many players off of last year's team (or from '91 or '02 or '77 or '82, etc.) sat down and bemoaned that they came short of the Div. I trophy when they could have easily won it all in Div. II or III? How many of them wished they could have traded places with Toledo Central Catholic than be playing and coming short against St. X? Why is the Div I played as the finale of the 6 games?

Once we lower the bar, it won't be raised again. It will just keep getting lower and lower.

Well said TigerVic.

I am actually shocked at reading the comments from some of our other regular posters.

IMO, the vast majority of fans, players and coaches were much more satisfied taking second place last year in Div 1 than they ever would have been being first in Div 2.

Massillon football is not Steubenville football.
But if we accept Div 2, it might very well start to be.

I think that the OHSAA was highly aware of Massillon when they made these decisions, and allowed for the "opt up" because they anticipated an uproar and legal action from us if they didn't.

Division 2 would pretty much mean the end of Massillon football as we know it.
Apparently that's what some of you want, or at the least you don't care.

[Benchboss1]

So let me get this straight. Chronic Tiger, Kamd50, Austinsm11, BigTime, TigerDon and a host of our posters on here actually prefer losing to winning. Does that sum it up correctly? :huh:

[austinsm11]

So let me get this straight. Chronic Tiger, Kamd50, Austinsm11, BigTime, TigerDon and a host of our posters on here actually prefer losing to winning. Does that sum it up correctly?

You are correct:wtf:

Let me sum up your argument. Since we haven't won the big one (although we have been so close) we should go beat up on some weaker opponents just so we can have a trophy.

[Marie]

So let me get this straight. Chronic Tiger, Kamd50, Austinsm11, BigTime, TigerDon and a host of our posters on here actually prefer losing to winning. Does that sum it up correctly? :huh:

I don't think they prefer losing to winning, but when we win, we want to win it all, a Division 1 championship. Since Shepas is gone I think we may be able to do it.

[Seeker]

So let me get this straight. Chronic Tiger, Kamd50, Austinsm11, BigTime, TigerDon and a host of our posters on here actually prefer losing to winning. Does that sum it up correctly? :huh:

I'm having a case of deja vu all over again.
As I recall your posting last year indicated the same poor reading comprehension on your part.

To answer your question, NO that is not what is being said.

We would rather lose in Division 1 than win in Division 2.
Why is that so hard to understand?

We are not losers, we are winners.
Many of us feel that to be a winner in Division 2 does not mean that we are not LOZERS.

Get it?

[xtiger]

Division 2 would pretty much mean the end of Massillon football as we know it.
Apparently that's what some of you want, or at the least you don't care. Quote from Seeker


Seeker,

Pretty strong words! I know more than a few(BC Board members), who
are in favor of a D2 switch! I dare you to say "they don't care about
Massillon Football"! LOL

They do more for massillon football than you can dream about!:pimp:


PS I currently support a D1 Massillon!

[Seeker]

Quote from Seeker


Seeker,

Pretty strong words! I know more than a few(BC Board members), who
are in favor of a D2 switch! I dare you to say "they don't care about
Massillon Football"! LOL

They do more for massillon football than you can dream about!:pimp:


PS I currently support a D1 Massillon!


They are short-sighted individuals!
They will know that they are when we are tearing down the end-zone seating and the east stands because they are no longer needed.
Or maybe when we close the downtown ticket office for lack of use.
Or when we plant grass on the field because there is no money for artifcial turf any longer.
Or when the Booster Club is replaced by a "player's support group" mostly made up of moms and dads like many of the rest of the Division 2 teams have.
At least the "declining season ticket issue" will be over. They won't need them.

[Kamd50]

I would rather watch a season of good hard-hitting top competition football games week in and week out and take our chances at the playoffs and ultimately the championship, than dummy-down just for the sake of a materialistic trophy! Yes that is the icing on the cake, but in my opinion is not the soul purpose of a football program. It's all about who we are and what we stand for, our tradition and reputation.

I might have been momentarily been disappointed that we lost that final game last year, but honestly, how could I or anyone else possibly been disappointed with our season?! or our boys? Trust me, our boys don't suffer from the pressure put upon them at football season to be their very best.If anything, it is what will help them most to become strong and confident young men! Those football players live for that, just ask them!

[Seeker]

I just realized something.
For the last 25 years I've watched people trying to "downplay" the importance of football in Massillon.
They do it because they think it's unfair to the other sports, and because it is percieved as being more important than academics.

They want us to join the Federal League.

Now this will be another opportunity to diminish, if not destroy, our football enthusiasm.

All the powers that be have to do is decline to opt up to Division 1.

It will all be over except the crying.

[Seeker]

Pretty strong words! I know more than a few(BC Board members), who are in favor of a D2 switch! I dare you to say "they don't care about Massillon Football"! LOL

They do more for massillon football than you can dream about!:pimp:


More than a few BC Board members?
Well there must be another side to the story.
Of course they do more for Massillon football than I do or ever will do.

Since they don't seem to be posting on here, maybe you could explain their feelings to us. It might help.

There are a few guys posting here in favor of it, but they are not making sense so it can't be them.
(Or if it is, God help us.)

[Benchboss1]

I don't think they prefer losing to winning, but when we win, we want to win it all, a Division 1 championship. Since Shepas is gone I think we may be able to do it.






I can't believe that people are still on here blaming Shepas for our problems. Just in case you did not know this Marie, Shepas was only here 7 years. That leaves 28 other years when we could not/did not win the division 1 state championship. Alot of former coaches were not able to bring home the bacon so to speak, including Cummings, Currence and Owens, three of the best coaches that we have ever had here.

Just a question for you Marie, since we have not been able to win a state title in the playoff era in 35 years, what makes you think that we can do it in the next 35 years? Is it just a gut feeling? :wall:

[Benchboss1]

We would rather lose in Division 1 than win in Division 2.




So you DO prefer losing to winning. Nice!!:bs:

[xtiger]

More than a few BC Board members?
Well there must be another side to the story.
Of course they do more for Massillon football than I do or ever will do.

Since they don't seem to be posting on here, maybe you could explain their feelings to us. It might help.

There are a few guys posting here in favor of it, but they are not making sense so it can't be them.
(Or if it is, God help us.)

I will allow them the opportunity to express themselves, if they want.
I won't speak for them, because of my loyalty to friendship.

As a 6th generation Massillon graduate......I bleed ORANGE and BLACK!!
I love my Tigers, as do many! Especially those whom gave their blood and guts on the field......And did so for you, the fan, not themselves!

But when you say they don't care is, like, blasphemy!


PS What year did you graduate from Jackson???

[tiger#22]

I think those of you who think we would dominate in Division II every year should re-think it. Toledo Central Catholic is another parochial.

So true, you have to love how these "all for dropping to Div 2" fans think our name is already engraved on the div 2 trophy for the next 10 years. Of course they will respond with the "we have a better chance" but I have yet to hear a factual reason why. But can you tell me which "big" Div 1 school we dont compete with on a yearly basis? Mentor is the largest school in Ohio, have they beat the Tigers? Mckinley is 300 or 400 more boys larger, do the Pups lead the series? St Ig and St Ed's again are much larger and yes the Tigers are only 4-10 against those 2 but out of those 14 how many did we not compete in or have no chance?
This debate is getting old and I wonder how many of you div 2 lovers will still feel that way in December....

[tiger#22]

Well Tiger22, if you are happy and content with counting final fours, then your theory is fantastic. However, most folks only care about who the champion is when it is all said and done with. Tell me, off the top of your head, who the 4 participants in the NFL conference championship games 3 years ago were.

It is just my opinion, but I think that most folks would rather win a state championship as compared to a regional championship. I guess that you are in the minority who can accept LOSING/FAILURE!!:wall:

I also find it ironic that you only mention the last five seasons in your post. Why don't you go back and check out the last 10 years. Then check out the last 15 years. Then the last 20. Then get back on here and post what you find. I bet the numbers will not be as skewered in favor of your side of the discussion.

One last thing, shouldn't this be about the kids? Do you actually believe that the kids for the next 10 years or so would rather NEVER win a division 1 state title than win at least 1 division 2 state title? Think about that for a minute.[/QUOTE]




You continue to make this debate easier and easier. So Massillon has been 1 of the best 4 teams left in div ONE 3 times in the last 5 years but they cant compete in Div ONE anymore?
Let me get this straight it is about the kids yet your saying what they have done in the last 5 years is nothing but failure? There is some strong reassurance from a Tiger fan :help: ,,,please keep that attitude at home this year the KIDS dont need the negativity.
Why should I go back 10-15 or 20 years, isnt it all about "what have you done for us lately" I could understand the Div 2 argument if the Tigers have missed the playoffs the last 10 years or won only 1 or 2 playoff games but this is a program that has been a consistent title contender in the last 5 years and yes I will say 3 out of 5 is very consistent.
I have an idea for you since your so worried about how the kids feel, go to 2 a days this week and ask the Frosh, Soph and JR's if they would want to continue to try and win the title in Div 1 or drop to Div 2 and basically have the same chance to win that title,,,,I will put a paycheck on 100% wanting to stay in Div 1.

[massillonmarine]

Amen, brother! Preach on! Preach on!

[tiger#22]

I am not sure how I even feel yet. But I have asked myself many times in prior years, how well have we, our fans, served our kids putting the pressure we put on them? They are kids. We expect excellence and all the values we talk about etc etc, but in reality "most" of us expect winning - and a whole lot more than what we've accomplished. Like I said in another thread, if we are div.2 then we are div.2. I dont like it but my problem is not w/ that, it is that our enrollment has dropped 13 of 15 years and THATS what we need to do something about. NOT put it all on our kids!
Honestly what do you think the pressure would be like on that first team to play in Div 2 ??? How do you think an offseason would be in Massillon if a Div 2 Tiger team didnt make the playoffs? or got bounced in a first round game. If you thought there is pressure now, you have no idea.

[tiger#22]

So let me get this straight. Chronic Tiger, Kamd50, Austinsm11, BigTime, TigerDon and a host of our posters on here actually prefer losing to winning. Does that sum it up correctly? :huh:

Losing the Div 1 trophy in the title game to winning the Div 2 trophy,,,your EXACTLY right! Finally your waking up:poke:

[tiger#22]

They are short-sighted individuals!
They will know that they are when we are tearing down the end-zone seating and the east stands because they are no longer needed.
Or maybe when we close the downtown ticket office for lack of use.
Or when we plant grass on the field because there is no money for artifcial turf any longer.
Or when the Booster Club is replaced by a "player's support group" mostly made up of moms and dads like many of the rest of the Division 2 teams have.
At least the "declining season ticket issue" will be over. They won't need them.

Well said Seeker it doesnt get anymore honest then that.

[Grandma Turtle]

We would rather lose in Division 1 than win in Division 2.
Why is that so hard to understand?

We are not losers, we are winners.
Many of us feel that to be a winner in Division 2 does not mean that we are not LOZERS.

Get it?

:upside: :stars: :sour: :sour:

Me "no understand" why winning on a level playing field is bad....

35 years of 0 wins in D1

35 more coming up..... Maybe 1 win? I don't know? The odds are against it.

...and you like it? You take pride walking out of a stadium losing EVERY STINKING YEAR THAT WE MAKE THE PLAY-OFFS.

I personally HATE IT.

We don't have Perry, Tuslaw, or Jackson kids with Massillon anymore.

Reality Check...!!! The City limits are small. We are the smallest D1 School in Stark County. Massillon is now a SMALL FOOTBALL CRAZY TOWN. We play on even terms by playing schools our size & Massillon gets back on the map of being The City of Champions.

D2 Will find out what Massillon is all about when we play on a level playing field. D2 is full of hard hitting football crazy people & towns. Massillon will be knocking the snot bubbles outta people.

When they play Massillon their players are going to be going to their huddle looking outta the ear holes in their helmets after being BLOWED-UP on the last play by a Massillon Kid.

Massillon will be feared.

That sounds fun to me...........

I would like to kick OHSAA in the nards for letting D1 St What-evers Teams cheat while watching Massillon like a HAWK. Its unfair.

Enjoy our great Massillon Football Program playing against teams equal to our enrollment. Lets start kicking butt & taking home the hardware.

Don't support the D1 cheaters by playing them. Good Luck in finding games you cheating pieces of poo poo.

Schedule a few of the best D1 public schools and the best of the best in D2.

[Benchboss1]

Great post Grandma!! Great post!! Finally another voice of reason and common sense!! Brains not egos!!!!

[austinsm11]

Let me ask this, what teams can we not beat? Moeller and Iggy seem to be the ones we have struggled with over the years...2 catholics. We can beat any public school in the state. We can beat most private schools in the state. With Eds and Iggy competing for players now and all the Cinci private schools fighting for players, maybe they are now diluted enough for us to beat them.

What happens if we go to DII and play a DII catholic team every year in the finals and fall short? Do we then see about dropping to DIII?

I also agree about the pressure. If we go to DII we will be expected to win every single year, which realistically won't happen. That would be some pressure.

Grandma, you complain about the DI cheaters that aren't playing fairly. Isn't it the same thing with private schools in every other division as well? How will it level the playing field if the private DII schools are recruiting?

[ChronicTiger]

So let me get this straight. Chronic Tiger, Kamd50, Austinsm11, BigTime, TigerDon and a host of our posters on here actually prefer losing to winning. Does that sum it up correctly? :huh:

You have been on here before calling for us to lighten up the schedule and not schedule the catholic schools.
You would rather drop down and play weaker competition, beat them, and then walk around thumping your chest.

You have not responded regarding Flutie. Three Championships certainly would make him one of the greatest QB's of all time, right?

You said last season was a failure. That means you must think Tiger football as a whole is a failure. Your attitude stinks and IMO Massillon does not need a fan like you.

:thumbsup:

[Benchboss1]

[QUOTE=austinsm11]Let me ask this, what teams can we not beat? Moeller and Iggy seem to be the ones we have struggled with over the years...2 catholics. We can beat any public school in the state. We can beat most private schools in the state. With Eds and Iggy competing for players now and all the Cinci private schools fighting for players, maybe they are now diluted enough for us to beat them.




Gee, it would seem that using this line of thinking, we would have more playoff titles than we do.:oops2:

[austinsm11]

I guess you are having trouble reading. :oops2:


I said that we have had trouble with 2 major catholic schools. I would say that these two have been the biggest obstacles, wouldn't you? In more recent times, say the past five years, someone previously mentioned how all of the private schools in Cinci have taken away from Moeller. Very recently it seems like Eds has done that to Iggy.

We know, at least I think, that it isn't about numbers because Mentor, Glen Oak, etc. would have won by now.

So if we go to DII, isn't it possible that we have the same problem with the catholic schools. And if the catholics are cheaters in DI, aren't they in DII then?

[Benchboss1]

You have been on here before calling for us to lighten up the schedule and not schedule the catholic schools.
You would rather drop down and play weaker competition, beat them, and then walk around thumping your chest.

You have not responded regarding Flutie. Three Championships certainly would make him one of the greatest QB's of all time, right?

You said last season was a failure. That means you must think Tiger football as a whole is a failure. Your attitude stinks and IMO Massillon does not need a fan like you.

:thumbsup:





You obviously have me confused with another poster. I have never argued for dropping the parochial schools from our schedule.

No, I have not responded about Flutie, because it is obvious that he is not one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. I also NEVER said that just winning a championship made you a great player. I simply said that players are often judged, no matter how fair or unfair it is, on how many championships they win.

I fail to see how playing schools comparable in size to us, and if we won, would be a bad thing.

Just because I am not using my ego in this debate, does not make me a bad fan. It makes me a fan who is thinking what is best overall for our kids.

You can hide from the truth all you want, but if you do not win the championship, your season is a failure. As much as it hurts me to say this, yes, in the playoff era, our program has failed.

I have NEVER heard an athlete say after losing a playoff game, WOW!! We just lost in the playoffs, what a GREAT season it was!!:huh:

[austinsm11]

You can hide from the truth all you want, but if you do not win the championship, your season is a failure.

I thought we would have a good year last year but didn't expect us to go all the way to the state finals. I wish we would have won, that is the ultimate goal, but I don't think our year was a failure.

Let's say that for one reason or another we had to play all freshmen on our varsity team. They surprise everyone and make it to the state finals before losing. Was the season a failure? According to you it is.

Also, since you are calling last season a failure, if a player asks you what you thought about last year are you gonna tell him it is was a failure?

[austinsm11]

I have NEVER heard an athlete say after losing a playoff game, WOW!! We just lost in the playoffs, what a GREAT season it was!!

Did you watch George Mason in the NCAAs this year?

[ChronicTiger]

You obviously have me confused with another poster. I have never argued for dropping the parochial schools from our schedule.

No, I have not responded about Flutie, because it is obvious that he is not one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. I also NEVER said that just winning a championship made you a great player. I simply said that players are often judged, no matter how fair or unfair it is, on how many championships they win.

I fail to see how playing schools comparable in size to us, and if we won, would be a bad thing.

Just because I am not using my ego in this debate, does not make me a bad fan. It makes me a fan who is thinking what is best overall for our kids.

You can hide from the truth all you want, but if you do not win the championship, your season is a failure. As much as it hurts me to say this, yes, in the playoff era, our program has failed.

I have NEVER heard an athlete say after losing a playoff game, WOW!! We just lost in the playoffs, what a GREAT season it was!!:huh:

You said winning a championship is all that matters....
Flutie has won three, he should certainly go down as one of the best ever...
Any QB that has not won a championship is obvioulsy a failure......

If you dont think players say what a great season it was after the playoffs even in a loss you obvioulsy didnt talk to any of the boys after last years game.....I didnt hear anybody claiming what a failure they are, what a failure the team was or what a failure our program was after that game.....

I think you stand alone when it comes to thinking our kids and our great program are a failure.....

You my friend are a failure as a fan.......

Considering the fact that probably 10-12 schools can account for all 35 DI state titles, ALL schools are a failure and should move to a lower division...

I dont think I have you confused with another poster....................

[xtiger]

This past season was a PHENOMENAL year! Especially after two 4-6 seasons.

When was the lsat year the Tigers played for the D1 State Title? And how
many years ago was that?? lol

[tiger#22]

Me "no understand" why winning on a level playing field is bad....

35 years of 0 wins in D1

35 more coming up..... Maybe 1 win? I don't know? The odds are against it.

...and you like it? You take pride walking out of a stadium losing EVERY STINKING YEAR THAT WE MAKE THE PLAY-OFFS.

I personally HATE IT.

We don't have Perry, Tuslaw, or Jackson kids with Massillon anymore.

Reality Check...!!! The City limits are small. We are the smallest D1 School in Stark County. Massillon is now a SMALL FOOTBALL CRAZY TOWN. We play on even terms by playing schools our size & Massillon gets back on the map of being The City of Champions.

D2 Will find out what Massillon is all about when we play on a level playing field. D2 is full of hard hitting football crazy people & towns. Massillon will be knocking the snot bubbles outta people.

When they play Massillon their players are going to be going to their huddle looking outta the ear holes in their helmets after being BLOWED-UP on the last play by a Massillon Kid.

Massillon will be feared.

That sounds fun to me...........

I would like to kick OHSAA in the nards for letting D1 St What-evers Teams cheat while watching Massillon like a HAWK. Its unfair.

Enjoy our great Massillon Football Program playing against teams equal to our enrollment. Lets start kicking butt & taking home the hardware.

Don't support the D1 cheaters by playing them. Good Luck in finding games you cheating pieces of poo poo.

Schedule a few of the best D1 public schools and the best of the best in D2.

Another lost soul, again why do you just assume the Div 2 trophy would have Washington High School on it every year? What would happen that first year in Div 2 if the Tigers didnt win it all? Would that be failure? Would we opt down to Div 3? Obviously you have no clue because there are alot of those St What-evers (as you called them) in Div 2 as well that get kids from all over the district. Just go back and read this quote in your post " We are the smallest Div 1 school in Stark County" did that mean anything to you when you were at 3 Semi Final games or the Title game last year? Did you leave Fawcett last December saying we lost the game because we only have 580 boys? Although you probably did and that is why your on the side of the dumbing down of Massillon Tiger football, thank god the players or Coaches and majority of fans dont agree with you. Is it the 25th yet? I cant wait for this mindless debate to be over and we can talk actual football.

[tiger#22]

I have NEVER heard an athlete say after losing a playoff game, WOW!! We just lost in the playoffs, what a GREAT season it was!!:huh:

Coach Stacy and a few of the players from last years team said it during the week after the game. Chronic is right you are a failure and again please dont bring the negative attitude to PBTS this Fall the KIDS dont need it.

[Obie Wan]

You my friend are a failure as a fan.......
Geez. Do we really need that? :wtf:

Why do these discussions always devolve down to traded charges of who's the "better fan" or what makes a "true Tiger"?

There are reasonable people with reasonable opinions on both sides of this debate. It is not necessary to demonize or insult someone because you disagree them.

[austinsm11]

Obviously you have no clue because there are alot of those St What-evers (as you called them) in Div 2 as well that get kids from all over the district.
You mean that there are private schools in other division as well? I guess grandma hadn't heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benchboss1
I have NEVER heard an athlete say after losing a playoff game, WOW!! We just lost in the playoffs, what a GREAT season it was!!


Coach Stacy and a few of the players from last years team said it during the week after the game.

Coach Stacy must have not been telling the truth then. Our season was such a failure!

[ChronicTiger]

Geez. Do we really need that? :wtf:

Why do these discussions always devolve down to traded charges of who's the "better fan" or what makes a "true Tiger"?

There are reasonable people with reasonable opinions on both sides of this debate. It is not necessary to demonize or insult someone because you disagree them.

Ummm anybody that claims Massillon is a failure as a program for the last 35 years..........

IS A FAILURE AS A FAN!

So your telling me you agree with somebody coming on a site that is for the
"Promotion of MASSILLON TIGER SPORTS" and claiming our kids, our team, our tradition is a FAILURE?????

Yes, I think he has failed the Tigers as a Fan and you have just failed as a poster!

:thumbsup:

[Seeker]

As a 6th generation Massillon graduate......I bleed ORANGE and BLACK!! I love my Tigers, as do many! Especially those whom gave their blood and guts on the field......And did so for you, the fan, not themselves!

But when you say they don't care is, like, blasphemy!


PS What year did you graduate from Jackson???

First of all, I don't think that I have ever purposely overstepped my bounds as a "newcomer". I have lived here since 1975, which is 31 years.
My Dad played and coached in Massillon.

I think that I have always showed you the respect that you deserve.

My actual comment was:
"Division 2 would pretty much mean the end of Massillon football as we know it.
Apparently that's what some of you want, or at the least you don't care."

I made that comment BEFORE you enlightened me about the fact that some key program supporters think Division 2 might not be a bad idea. That's why I asked for an explanation of their point of view.
I apologize for it, and I retract the last part.
However, I am still of the firm opinion that Division 2 would forever change Massillon Football, and mostly not in good ways.

[austinsm11]

However, I am still of the firm opinion that Division 2 would forever change Massillon Football, and mostly not in good ways.

I agree.

I made that comment BEFORE you enlightened me about the fact that some key program supporters think Division 2 might not be a bad idea. That's why I asked for an explanation of their point of view.

I am also interested to hear their point of view. This really surprises me and I am curious as to their reasons.

[chumly]

I copied and pasted this from a post in another thread:

I was always afraid but knew the time was coming that the enrollment issue would arise and Massillon would be looking at being forced to DII.

But not quite yet...There should be no question in anyones mind that we should be opting for DI if given the opportunity. Look at the all boys schools that have 2-3 times the number of boys that we have and we have beat them on the field in the last decade, including Moeller, Elder, St. Eds and Iggy....

Yeah, there are DII schools that could and do compete with the best of the DI, but they aren't Massillon!

Massillon is Massillon - I don't care if we reach DIII size someday. There should be a "Massillon Rule" that allows Massillon and a few other traditional programs to always compete in DI - WE MADE OHIO FOOTBALL WHAT IT IS!!

The mediocre thought in some fans minds that we should ever move to DII is amazing (but not surprising) to me and many others here. This almost amounts to heresy.

Furgiddabowdit - period!!
If the OSHAA ever tries to force us into DII we should take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court or amend the US Constitution.

[TigerVic]

Somehow, I don't recall much of an outcry of "if only we were in Div. II" last December on this board.

[chumly]

great point TigerVic!!:poke:

[chumly]

How stinkin' viloated would Massillon Fans feel after winning a DII Championship, then watching or hearing about, say, McKinley or Warren winning DI "IN THE BIG GAME" a few hours later.

They'd feel "second" rate (get it? second rate :dance: )

[Obie Wan]

Look at the all boys schools that have 2-3 times the number of boys that we have and we have beat them on the field in the last decade, including Moeller, Elder, St. Eds and Iggy....
Our record against those schools in the last decade is 5-10 (Moeller 1-2, Elder 1-0, St. Ed 2-2, Iggy 1-6).

[Seeker]

But when you say they don't care is, like, blasphemy!

X, what seems to be confusing me (and others) is that I would think that EVEN suggesting Division 2 to the Booster Club would be considered blasphemy.

What's really going on here?

[chumly]

and? what?
did we ever freakin' give up??
will we?

Our record against St X is 0-1
do we say, "oh well. let's head to DII - we missed our chance?"

[Obie Wan]

X, what seems to be confusing me (and others) is that I would think that EVEN suggesting Division 2 to the Booster Club would be considered blasphemy.

What's really going on here?

This is what I was alluding to in my post (http://www.massillonproud.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2079&postcount=145) about 20 or 30 pages ago. The decision to opt up is by no means a foregone conclusion.

[chumly]

:no2:

The Repository some December Sunday morning in the Future:

Above the fold Front Page:

"STATE CHAMPS!"
"McKinley Wins D1 Championship"

Page 4 of the Sports Section on that same day in December:

"Massillon Romps in DII Championship"

How disgusted you all would feel :puke:

[GrowlingTiger87]

I think this is getting ugly, and turning Tiger fans against each other. I personally can understand where both sides come from. I hope we never have to see Massillon drop to DII, but what happens if we do? Do all of the so-called real fans (which by the way, in my mind, I think is almost ALL of us) jump ship, and stop supporting the program?

I honestly think not, but what happens if it happens someday, and we do drop to D2 because there is no other choice (for whatever reason). We then go on and win a championship. Will we be any less proud of the kids who earned it? I should hope not, but from what I can see, some may just shrug their shoulders and give a sarcastic "whoopie"! Not me, because anyone who thinks we would have a cake walk year in and year out is mistaken. The kids still would have earned it.


Here's some other thoughts about some of the things that have been said:

1) Are we really that cocky as to think that Massillon was the sole reason for setting these rules?

2) Why do we really, honestly care what ANY other school and their fans think of us? I know I could care less what Joe Blow from McKinley has to say about Massillon.

3) It sickens me to see Tiger fans at each other's throats. No one fan is better than the other.

4) Regardless of where this program is led (even if, God forbid, we end up in the Fed someday), I will follow. I am orange and black till I die, and ain't nothin' going to change that. And no matter what, I will be damn proud to call myself a Tiger fan.

[orangenblack]

Someone please tell me why DIV II automatically means a state championship for Massiloon if we were to drop down?

[tiger#22]

I honestly think not, but what happens if it happens someday, and we do drop to D2 because there is no other choice (for whatever reason). We then go on and win a championship. Will we be any less proud of the kids who earned it? I should hope not, but from what I can see, some may just shrug their shoulders and give a sarcastic "whoopie"! Not me, because anyone who thinks we would have a cake walk year in and year out is mistaken. The kids still would have earned it.


I think the argument is getting so heated is because there is going to be a choice to stay in Div 2 or jump back up to Div 1. If there is no option there is no argument and nothing anyone can do. I honestly never thought I would see the day where "some" fans actually think it would be better for the program to drop a divsion just to win a title? or should I say try and win.

[Seeker]

This is what I was alluding to in my post (http://www.massillonproud.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2079&postcount=145) about 20 or 30 pages ago. The decision to opt up is by no means a foregone conclusion.

Oops.
I remember reading that post of yours, but it didn't sink in.

Sorry for the offense.

[chumly]

Let's all practice Our Cheer to the McKinley Fans...

ready...

"We're Number One of Number Two, We're Number One of Number Two..."

c'mon everybody, join me...

"We're num...'

Okay, what's the matter???

I know, they we're Number One of Number One, but we're in Number Two now, it's okay...

let's go everyone...

"We're Number One of Number Two!"

That's it, you got it now...

[Seeker]

I think this is getting ugly, and turning Tiger fans against each other. I personally can understand where both sides come from. I hope we never have to see Massillon drop to DII, but what happens if we do? Do all of the so-called real fans (which by the way, in my mind, I think is almost ALL of us) jump ship, and stop supporting the program?

It's not the regular posters on here that I'm talking about.

But as was discussed ad nauseum last year, the "die hard" supportive fan base is ageing. Season ticket sales are declining. People are prioritizing their lives, and football often gets beat out by other responsibilites.

IMO, our becoming Division 2 would cause an acceleration in the declining support.

[Obie Wan]

Oops.
I remember reading that post of yours, but it didn't sink in.

Sorry for the offense.
It's alright. You're not the first person on here to ignore me.

It just hurts more when it's you.

[Fats]

We would rather lose in Division 1 than win in Division 2.




So you DO prefer losing to winning. Nice!!:bs:

You talk about apple and oranges, Div I and Div II is just that. As a player would you rather win the World Series or the Little League World Series. In Ohio football Div. I is King. An as a Massillonian I want to have the chance to win the Big Boys Trophy. Now if we are forced to go Div. II that is different, but, if we chose Div. II then maybe we are not the Massillon that I know.

[Fats]

If we have an option then we MUST chose Div. I. If at sometime in the future we have no option then we play in that Division. Massillon Tigers are a Division I program. To say that are program is not a Div. I program. You need to look at the facts. We are the number 1 winningest program in the State of Ohio, We are number 2 in the Nation. We are known across this country for our Program. We have a winning record in every decade. Only one team out of hundreds can win a State Title, Massillon has consistently been a powerhouse program. They are not playing the Herbstreit Classic at Paul Brown Tiger Stadium and having are Tigers play because we are a washed up program. To want to drop down a Division just so (you think) we would have a better chance of winning then lets see if we can go to Div. VI.
WE ARE MASSILLON we are a Division I program.
I have said this over and over, WE NEED to promote our school. We can do what the private schools do, we have the same rules. It is just our administration is NOT doing it.
To Sum it up: We should OPT UP to Div. I as long as we have a choice.

[chumly]

Massillon
:no2:
McKinley
:no1:
:hyper:

[BigTime]

So let me get this straight. Chronic Tiger, Kamd50, Austinsm11, BigTime, TigerDon and a host of our posters on here actually prefer losing to winning. Does that sum it up correctly? :huh:

Pal I felt bad at the end of the championship game last year for about 10 seconds. We crushed our archrival in the playoffs and sent their 12-0 seaon down in flames. The following week we nocked off a physical St Eds squad in dramatic fashion. The final week was off the charts with excitement and state and national interest.

If that experience every few years is a trade off for a DII championship over Canfield then so be it.

[xtiger]

http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9222/horseka2.png

[Seeker]

http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9222/horseka2.png

Not until we hear from Carle!:jestera:

[Kamd50]

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/3968/stu34xw.jpg

Do you think that Steve would be satisfied with a D2 trophy:rock: :bs:

[Obie Wan]

Do you think that Steve would be satisfied with a D2 trophy:
Well, I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that question.

[Red50Go]

What, you think he'd crap on their heads or something, like some of you are acting like? All the man did was care about kids and make them better players, and people. Period. God bless SS, and please leave him out of this, ok? Pitiful.

[Grandma Turtle]

I didn't say we would win every year in D2 but with the best football program in the country playing on a level playing field, I bet we win alot more than 0 in 35 years.

I know D2 Cathlic schools are allowed to openly recruit while the publics will be shot by a firing squad if anything even sounds like recruiting was done.

People still come to Massillon to play football. Win a couple State Championships & keep putting our kids in College & they will come to make up for the recruiting of the St. Cheater Schools. Our Football Program alone allows our home-grown kids to make up for some of that too.

I just mean the enrollment numbers. You have to be soooo deep to get to & win game # 15

The Massillon vs McKinley game would still be huge........




A great year in D2 would be...

Massillon beats McKinley in Week # 10 & then wins the D2 Championship.

Whatever McKinley does in the D1 play-offs that year...........WE OWN THEM !!!!!

EVEN IF THEY WIN IT ALL..........WE OWN THEM

Winning D2 Championship:no1:

Owning McKinley :pimp:

........................................:usflag:
................................................. :usflag:

[Kamd50]

Why is it pititful? No more pitiful than asking the same question per Paul Brown or any other one of our great Massillon legends. You just don't want to admit that the answer would probably be NO! How about putting the question to recent alums like Crable, Zwick, Jordan, Mcguire, many others....I doubt they would have been happy playing in D2. And please don't presume that you can tell me what to say.

[Grandma Turtle]

Why is it pititful? You just don't want to admit that the answer would probably be NO!

Not only is he bringing Stu into it but now he's answering for him:stars:



I don't want this thread closed so feel free to remove the Stu Stuff. Don't need to be here.....

[xtiger]

Why is it pititful? No more pitiful than asking the same question per Paul Brown or any other one of our great Massillon legends. You just don't want to admit that the answer would probably be NO! How about putting the question to recent alums like Crable, Zwick, Jordan, Mcguire, many others....I doubt they would have been happy playing in D2. And please don't presume that you can tell me what to say.

Lebron James played D3 ball....AND look at him now!:no3: :devil: LOL

[Kamd50]

Rare example,X:devil:

So, granny, you think that our past Tiger Greats would be all gun-ho for it, huh? It's highly unlikely coming from people that preached play hard or go home.

[The Butler]

Rare example,X:devil:


OJ Mayo and Bill Walker from North College Hill are arguably the 2 best high school players in the country (granted one can no longer play). Again, D-3. Both will go to their college of choice next year and be in the NBA the year after that.

[Obie Wan]

Why is it pititful? No more pitiful than asking the same question per Paul Brown or any other one of our great Massillon legends. You just don't want to admit that the answer would probably be NO!
It is somewhat shameful to appropriate a dead man's legacy for partisan political purposes. The fact is that you don't know what Steve Studer would say, and it is presumptuous and improper to imply that you do.

How about putting the question to recent alums like Crable, Zwick, Jordan, Mcguire, many others
How about it? I would guess they've all got working telephones, so it should be easy enough to find out.

[Kamd50]

Since when is this a political issue?

[xtiger]

OJ Mayo and Bill Walker from North College Hill are arguably the 2 best high school players in the country (granted one can no longer play). Again, D-3. Both will go to their college of choice next year and be in the NBA the year after that.

I wonder if they feel any less not playing D1 ball?:crap:

[Obie Wan]

Since when is this a political issue?
Since when do you talk with the dead?

And if you don't think that there will be politics out the wazoo involved in this decision, you are either sorely mistaken or sadly naive.

[austinsm11]

Please, let's stop dragging people into this who can't speak for themselves.
As much as we think we know what they would want, we clearly have no idea.

I know D2 Cathlic schools are allowed to openly recruit while the publics will be shot by a firing squad if anything even sounds like recruiting was done.


Grandma, your whole reason for not playing DI is because you say the Catholic schools "cheat." I have some news for you. There are Catholic schools in DII that also "cheat."

I personally think the Tigers need to stay DI. You can have your own opinion, but the argument you gave is flawed.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

Excellent points Obie Wan!

[austinsm11]

I understand the point you try to make about Lebron, OJ, etc. I just don't see how you can compare basketball and football. How many times could a lower division state champion beat the DI state champion in football?

[Grandma Turtle]

Grandma, your whole reason for not playing DI is because you say the Catholic schools "cheat." I have some news for you. There are Catholic schools in DII that also "cheat."



Hmmm. The quote you have in your post says that I know D2 Openly Recruits. That means I know they cheat. .....so your reading comprehension is flawed

.................................................. ............................ :scratchchin:

I'm talking about enrollment numbers....... The number of boys in the schools in D2 is similar to Massillons.

In D1 Massillons enrollment numbers are not even close to most teams we play.

[tiger#22]

OJ Mayo and Bill Walker from North College Hill are arguably the 2 best high school players in the country (granted one can no longer play). Again, D-3. Both will go to their college of choice next year and be in the NBA the year after that.

If NCH has the option to jump to Div 1 with those 2 players on the team (one of which is already ineligible) then I am sure they would jump to Div 1 in a second.

[npaflas]

As long as we beat MCKINLEY who's cares what divison we are in. GO TIGERS

[austinsm11]

Seems like you can't stick with a reason.

You first said that DI catholics cheat and that is why we need to go to DII. There are catholic "cheaters" as you put it in DII. So I am asking what the difference is.

Then you go on to mention that enrollment numbers and how Massillon's aren't even close to some of the teams we played. You know Mentor's enrollment. How did we do against them?

So which is it? The Catholic cheaters or are enrollment numbers?

[liner]

As long as we beat MCKINLEY who's cares what divison we are in. GO TIGERS
....yes indeed..would this game draw less? ....i think not!!..but tiger victories would become a larger and sharper thorn in the pup's arse.....:poke:

[Grandma Turtle]

Seems like you can't stick with a reason.

You first said that DI catholics cheat and that is why we need to go to DII. There are catholic "cheaters" as you put it in DII. So I am asking what the difference is.

Then you go on to mention that enrollment numbers and how Massillon's aren't even close to some of the teams we played. You know Mentor's enrollment. How did we do against them?

So which is it? The Catholic cheaters or are enrollment numbers?


Cheating for BOTH !!! ((((((((((((double cheaters))))))))))))))


Are you saying having Divisions means nothing?

Are you suggesting we should put all schools in 1 Division and have just 1 winner every year?

[austinsm11]

Are you suggesting we should put all schools in 1 Division and have just 1 winner every year?
Umm, no.

You keep going back and forth between enrollment numbers and the catholics, which are two different things. I say we can compete with larger schools, which we have proven we can.

So if our main problem is the "cheaters," why not stay where we are in DI? How do we know that the "cheaters" in DII won't keep us from a championship?

I totally agree with you about having problems with the Catholic schools. I just don't understand how going to DII will solve this problem.