Division assignments 2007-2008

[TigerCoach]

WOW thats is some bull crap we r massillon u cant do that we better stay in d1 idk about anyone but id rather be a state runner up in d1 then a state champ in d 2 we always hang with the big dogs WE R THE BIG DOGS always its not all about the players its about the coaches too and we got good coaches and good players dont worrie massillion WE R BRINGGIN THE SHIP HOME THIS YEAR BABY

Who is your English teacher? You need to repeat some classes.

[TigerCoach]

Rhetorical question: Who was our "toughest opponent" in the 2000 playoffs?[/QUOTE]

Don Walker and the rest of the officiating crew in the Marion Harding game.

[MTFootBall59]

ok heres how i c it im a 07 graduate i will be playin this year for the tigers if u look at it we can hang with anyone u give to us we just need good coaches and good players i mean look at it this way not gettin on coach stacy but look at us aginst st x yes we lost so wut yes there enrollment was bigger then ours so wut we wanted it just as bad as st x did u kno that was the first time st x won the championchip c theres a first time for everything id say the main reason y we lost that game was cause coach stacy made shawn punt at 8 seconds before half time i mean come on now RUN THE BALL or something our deff would of been able to keep them from scorin for 8 or so seconds in my eyes it dosent matter about enrollment it matter by heart the players and the coaches. lol and like i said in any case id rather be a state runner up in d1 then a d2 state champ cause i mean if u win a d2 chip ya kool ok but u kno wut theres a whole nother class of football teams that u havent beat i look at it this way we r the second best in the state last year and i helped and im proud of that and if ur not there something wrong with u cause before all that happened noone thought we would be competeing for the d1 ship so if u think that we arent at a lvl where we cant compet just cause of enroolment lol then i think u need to go and sit with mck cause the real fans of massillon would stay right at the d 1 and im not selffish at all look at the stats this past year and look for wut we r gonna do this year cause ill tell u wut we r workin our butts off theres no rush like runnin out there for a D1 title game

like i said before id take a d1 runner up over a d2 ship any day

A REAL TIGER #59

[DaveDawg]

ok heres how i c it im a 07 graduate i will be playin this year for the tigers if u look at it we can hang with anyone u give to us we just need good coaches and good players i mean look at it this way not gettin on coach stacy but look at us aginst st x yes we lost so wut yes there enrollment was bigger then ours so wut we wanted it just as bad as st x did u kno that was the first time st x won the championchip c theres a first time for everything id say the main reason y we lost that game was cause coach stacy made shawn punt at 8 seconds before half time i mean come on now RUN THE BALL or something our deff would of been able to keep them from scorin for 8 or so seconds in my eyes it dosent matter about enrollment it matter by heart the players and the coaches. lol and like i said in any case id rather be a state runner up in d1 then a d2 state champ cause i mean if u win a d2 chip ya kool ok but u kno wut theres a whole nother class of football teams that u havent beat i look at it this way we r the second best in the state last year and i helped and im proud of that and if ur not there something wrong with u cause before all that happened noone thought we would be competeing for the d1 ship so if u think that we arent at a lvl where we cant compet just cause of enroolment lol then i think u need to go and sit with mck cause the real fans of massillon would stay right at the d 1 and im not selffish at all look at the stats this past year and look for wut we r gonna do this year cause ill tell u wut we r workin our butts off theres no rush like runnin out there for a D1 title game

like i said before id take a d1 runner up over a d2 ship any day

A REAL TIGER #59

Now that is putting yourself out on Front Street!

[MTFootBall59]

no its just internet typin i can really type and alot of it is just cause i type to fast lol

[MTFootBall59]

well i have respect for mck ive lived in massillon my whole life how would u feel if mck was bein downed to d2?

[MTFootBall59]

lmao

[Kamd50]

I admire your attitude MTfootball59, and would be willing to bet that the students and athletes of WHS would overwhelmingly agree with you. Heck, even the jr high and middleschool kids would. It has nothing at all with being "selfish", it's called Tiger Pride, you know, like Massillon Proud.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

MTFootball59,

Stacy taught you something about leading with force and winning with force.

[TigerCoach]

id say the main reason y we lost that game was cause coach stacy made shawn punt at 8 seconds before half time i mean come on now RUN THE BALL

I think the main reason we lost that game was that our punt team couldn't tackle the guy. The odds of him running back a punt 71 yards with virtually no blocking was much higher than them lining up a designed play. As a coach, you play the odds sometimes.

[Red50Go]

Actually, I think I would rather be div.1 runner up than div.2 champ too.

But how about a 1st round loss or a title? Or 7-3 w/ no playoffs or a title. How about 4-6 or div.2 title? I know its a tough call - I respect everyone's opinion.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

TigerCoach,

Brad Brookbank's 71-yard punt return touchdown was not the reason why Massillon fell to #1 Cincinnati St. Xavier. Massillon's inability to stop Darius Ashley was the main difference. Everytime he rushed for over 100 yards, the Bombers won!

Go back to the 2004 Division I state championship between Canton McKinley and Cincinnati Colerain. The Bulldogs lost and it wasn't just on one play. Their inability to stop Dominick Goodman was the main reason behind that (and everytime he rushed for over 100 yards, the Cardinals won every game)!

Go back to the 2003 title tilt between Lakewood St. Edward and Cincinnati Elder. St. Edward lost because they could not stop yet ANOTHER 100-rusher in Bradley Glatthaar (same as Colerain and St. X...when Glatthaar ran for over 100, the Panthers won).

This decade has been all about the 100-yard rushers in state title games!

[Grandma Turtle]

Does anyone know, for sure, if we choose to be D1 in Football, can we also be D2 in Girls Basketball, for example.

...or does all sports have to move up if 1 does?

:gotigers:........................................ .................................................. ............. :gogogo:

[TigerLily]

The numbers for dividing the schools into divisions are driven way up because of the parochial enrollment. Sometimes I wonder why they are even allowed in the Ohio High School Athletic Association because they pretty much do what they want and the rest of us follow the OHSAA rules. Maybe we should be separated until they are made to become co-ed and stay within boundaries.

But, all I know is that if we happen to get beat by Mck in week ten and not possibly have a chance at them again (like this year) it would not be good.

We can and do compete in Div. I -- so I say stay

Tigers all the way!!!!!:gotigers:

[liner]

Just a thought.....Did OHSAA allow for the adjustment up, because:

1) They knew Massillon would want to play D1.
2) Without it, Massillon would dominate D2.

Just a thought!

.,......would the tigers have dominated div2 in 03 and 04?....this is the old attitute[automatically dominating div.2] of chanting "we want moeller" while parma padua was shutting us out..........i grew up on a farm and did count eggs with my grandma.......

[xtiger]

.,......would the tigers have dominated div2 in 03 and 04?....this is the old attitute[automatically dominating div.2] of chanting "we want moeller" while parma padua was shutting us out..........i grew up on a farm and did count eggs with my grandma.......

If you don't think Massillon would dominate D2 on a consistant basis,
you would need your head examined.

Of course there'd be a few years here and there, where Massillon
wouldn't win the crown. However, winning 6 or 7 years out of 10
years is likely. Is that domination?

[Red50Go]

Well if thats the case then lets prove it and win 3-4 of the next 5 titles and then move up and leave D-2 a quivering pile of rubble. That would make sense.

To opt up to div.1 w/out ever having won a playoff title there, or anywhere, is ballsy to say the least. Its nice to think we'd get props for it, but I am sure as many would point to our foolish pride or arrogance.

[monte81]

id say the main reason y we lost that game was cause coach stacy made shawn punt at 8 seconds before half time i mean come on now RUN THE BALL

I think the main reason we lost that game was that our punt team couldn't tackle the guy. The odds of him running back a punt 71 yards with virtually no blocking was much higher than them lining up a designed play. As a coach, you play the odds sometimes.

Tiger coach,

In any instance both opinions are somewhat true. Punting the ball was not the best option but when you pass the ball on 1st and 2nd down it really left us no option. We should have run 3 straight plays and the clock would have been gone! We did not have a significant enough passing attack to beat X! The OLB and strong safety could not be blocked all night. Those issues should be corrected and we should bring home the title in 06. Stay in DI for the competition and if the team has the right athletes, determination, and discipline we will always be in the title hunt! Every program has some weak years from time to time! i like your comments-- you keep it real!!!

[Obie Wan]

MTFootball59,

Stacy taught you something about leading with force and winning with force.

Too bad Stacy didn't teach him about punctuation. :biggrin: :help2:

Does anyone know, for sure, if we choose to be D1 in Football, can we also be D2 in Girls Basketball, for example.

...or does all sports have to move up if 1 does?

Football is the only sport with 6 divisions. As such, we will still be D1 in all other sports. Specifically, basketball D1 is the largest 22% of participating schools.

An eligible school can elect to move up on a sport-by-sport basis. As an example, NCH could play D1 basketball while remaining D4(?) in football.

[Obie Wan]

To opt up to div.1 w/out ever having won a playoff title there, or anywhere, is ballsy to say the least. Its nice to think we'd get props for it, but I am sure as many would point to our foolish pride or arrogance.

Case in point: In 2003 Buchtel finished 7-3 and missed the DIII playoffs because they scheduled (and lost to) Hoover, Warren, and Massillon in the first 3 weeks. Nobody said they were ballsy and patted them on the back for stepping up. Quite to the contrary; the prevailing sentiment was that it was a stupid thing to do and they got (predictably) burned for it.

In Massillon's case, we're going to get abuse no matter what we do - so why is the opinion of others even being considered?

[pyromaniac]

I don't understand why everyone thinks we would just run away with the DII title. There are some good solid teams in DII that in a lot of years, could give us a game or even beat us. There is not that much of a difference between DI and DII. We would have an advantage in DII as we would be one of the bigger schools, but regardless, there are only ever 11 kids on the field. GlenOak and Mentor are 2 of the biggest schools in the state and how many titles have they won? Maybe I do need my head examined, but I just don't see the logic of why we would just run away with the title every year.

[MTFootBall59]

Ok think about this, ok first this whole problem is over we not having enough boys in our school as it is. wouldent us going from a d1 to a d2 even more less the boys at our school cause i mean ya its massillon but people who are commin in from out of town or out of state will want to go to a d1 school i dont kno about you all but if i was comming in from out of state i would pick a d1 school over a d2 which in this case would enhance the problem

~Mike~

[Fats]

Ask Ohio State if they would rather play for a Div. 1 National Championship or for a NCAA Div. 4. This is Massillon and we should compete at the top of the pile. If we are forced to go Div II then so be it. But, we should opt to play at Div I any time we can. It sounds to me that some of you are saying since we haven't won the big one then lets take our ball and play with the other neighborhood kids. WE are Massillon and no matter how many kids we have on the sideline we are able to compete year in and year out with the rest of the Div I schools.
What we should do, is PROMOTE our School System and show students from the sport kids to the debate kids, choir kids that OUR School system has a lot to offer.
:gotigers:

[MTown]

This program has been built for over 100 years on the concept of striving to be the absolute best. It's why we have the facilities we do, it's why we hire the coaches we do, it's why we have the fan base we do, it's why we have the booster club we do, it's why we have the schedules we do. Trying to be the best is why we've bought teams out of their contracts in order to get better teams on our schedule, it's why we are playing in the Herbstreit Challenge. For 100 years we played and measured ourselves against the best.

OK.....so we go DII. We're still going to play McK, Warren, Ignatius. We're still going to play events like Moeller in PBS, Herbstreit, Valdosta. Our regular season schedule is still going to feature the best that D1 has to offer. Only now, when the chips are down and it really counts, we are going to play in the DII playoffs. WHY?

There are some that will say that viewpoint is macho. They'll say I'm not being fair to the kids. They'll say we aren't competitive anymore because we havn't won a title since '70. Fine...I respect your opinion...I will just never accept it. A DII title would seem hollow to me. Fair or unfair, that's just how I feel.

If you look at Region 2, there is no freaking way that we shouldn't be able to work our way to the regional final in most years. From that point, we have just as good a chance as anyone to win the title. To be honest, I'm suprised at a lot of the responses on here when we are just an offseason removed from going to the state finals. Doesn't that tell you that we can WIN in DI?

IMHO....if we have a choice to challenge ourselves against the best, and we opt out, then the very principles that our program has been built on will have been compromised.

[MTFootBall59]

Amen!! Tiger Pride!!!

[Catman]

I would hate to see us move down to division II!! It wouldn't matter if we won the state, lost it, didn't compete because all you would here from the Canton morans is you guys couldn't win in division I and now you can't even win in div II. You name it and we will here it!

[xtiger]

This program has been built for over 100 years on the concept of striving to be the absolute best. It's why we have the facilities we do, it's why we hire the coaches we do, it's why we have the fan base we do, it's why we have the booster club we do, it's why we have the schedules we do. Trying to be the best is why we've bought teams out of their contracts in order to get better teams on our schedule, it's why we are playing in the Herbstreit Challenge. For 100 years we played and measured ourselves against the best.

OK.....so we go DII. We're still going to play McK, Warren, Ignatius. We're still going to play events like Moeller in PBS, Herbstreit, Valdosta. Our regular season schedule is still going to feature the best that D1 has to offer. Only now, when the chips are down and it really counts, we are going to play in the DII playoffs. WHY?

There are some that will say that viewpoint is macho. They'll say I'm not being fair to the kids. They'll say we aren't competitive anymore because we havn't won a title since '70. Fine...I respect your opinion...I will just never accept it. A DII title would seem hollow to me. Fair or unfair, that's just how I feel.

If you look at Region 2, there is no freaking way that we shouldn't be able to work our way to the regional final in most years. From that point, we have just as good a chance as anyone to win the title. To be honest, I'm suprised at a lot of the responses on here when we are just an offseason removed from going to the state finals. Doesn't that tell you that we can WIN in DI?

IMHO....if we have a choice to challenge ourselves against the best, and we opt out, then the very principles that our program has been built on will have been compromised.

MTown,

Great post! Good valid points and I agree with them, but I can also
see the other side of this argument as well. Times have changed,
enrollment numbers have declined, mega districts have cropped up,
Catholic Schools have emerged....AND we continue to expect our kids
to bring back the State Title.

I'm glad I'm not the one making the decision.


Once upon a time, Massillon was considered one of the bigger High Schools around, but not any longer. Is it time to change? I don't know!

Now, how can we throw the Federal League into all this?:jestera:

[Obie Wan]

Now, how can we throw the Federal League into all this?:jestera:

It's been done: http://www.massillonproud.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1822&postcount=62;. :biggrin:

[Obie Wan]

Canton morans
Anyone else see the irony here? :tonguewave:

[ChronicTiger]

Ok think about this, ok first this whole problem is over we not having enough boys in our school as it is. wouldent us going from a d1 to a d2 even more less the boys at our school cause i mean ya its massillon but people who are commin in from out of town or out of state will want to go to a d1 school i dont kno about you all but if i was comming in from out of state i would pick a d1 school over a d2 which in this case would enhance the problem

~Mike~

:scratchchin:

[austinsm11]

It sounds to me that some of you are saying since we haven't won the big one then lets take our ball and play with the other neighborhood kids.
I agree

OK.....so we go DII. We're still going to play McK, Warren, Ignatius. We're still going to play events like Moeller in PBS, Herbstreit, Valdosta. Our regular season schedule is still going to feature the best that D1 has to offer. Only now, when the chips are down and it really counts, we are going to play in the DII playoffs. WHY?

Why? Because we can still win a championship at DII :wall: Who cares if we lose to McK, Warren, and Ignatius in a given year, we will at least have a trophy.


I really think we need to stay DI. In my opinion a better argrument is being made for staying.
(ObieWan did have a good point about going to DII helps us avoid the big catholics. Although it seems the dominance of Moeller and Iggy has begun to fade and we will still face other catholic schools in DII)

Also, if it were strictly about numbers we would see GlenOak and Mentor winning all the time, as TigerCoach mentioned.


When more divisions were created before, were teams given the option to play up? Why are thy doing this now? Why not just set the numbers and not give schools the option? And why is this only being offered at the DI level? Will smaller catholics, such as Benedictine, who see a few good years coming opt up for DI for 2 years to make a good run and then go back down to their own division when the run has ended?

Glad to see we have one opinion from the students. How do the other students feel?

Also, where is warren1st? What is being said over there? I thought someone said that Warren could be dropped to DII as well.

[tiger#22]

We can and should still take "AP classes". I dont see how our schedule would change much, if at all. The only difference is in the playoffs we would compete against our peers. Actually, I think it would make regular season games vs div. 1 powers all the more exciting. Wins, much moreso than now, would garner the praise and acclaim the program (& the players) really deserve. Like I said, its not like anyone gives us any credit at all for being small & competitive - quite the opposite actually. And frankly, I dont think all of us realize the amount of pressure we put on these kids to win against such odds, for our own selfish & misguided reasons.
So we should continue to schedule Div 1 powers during the regular season but drop to Div 2 so we can play teams in the playoffs with similar enrollment #'s? I hate to tell you this but pressure at Massillon has been going on for well over 70 years, here we go with the "pressure on the kids" garbage,,oh god dont let little Tommy feel any pressure in his life, make sure we baby him so he can get out in the real world and get stomped on...:sad2:

[Obie Wan]

I'll say this: if we had won so much as one playoff title, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But as it is, people see 35 years of dissapointment, they see 3 losses in the title game, and a couple of other teams (91, 02, etc.) that coulda/shoulda won it all. They start to wonder if we're just snakebit, and that just morphs into a sense of resignation and doubt.

Again, this is a huge year for the future direction of the program. People have looking towards 2006 for a while, as it was well-known that we would have some serious talent on the field. Absent a strong showing by this team, the prevailing wisdom will likely be that last year was a flash in the pan - and unless I'm wrong about the PC, feel-good administration, that puts us squarely in D2 next year.

[Grandma Turtle]

So we should continue to schedule Div 1 powers during the regular season but drop to Div 2 so we can play teams in the playoffs with similar enrollment #'s? I hate to tell you this but pressure at Massillon has been going on for well over 70 years, here we go with the "pressure on the kids" garbage,,oh god dont let little Tommy feel any pressure in his life, make sure we baby him so he can get out in the real world and get stomped on...:sad2:


Little Tommy might need new parents. Maybe Lil'Tom can juggle firecrackers or something for additional pressure to get ready for life :lol:

Pressure sure don't equal titles.... : Massillon Play-off Titles - 0 :suspect:

[The Butler]

OK.....so we go DII. We're still going to play McK, Warren, Ignatius. We're still going to play events like Moeller in PBS, Herbstreit, Valdosta. Our regular season schedule is still going to feature the best that D1 has to offer.

Do you think that if (big if) Massillon is D 2, that they will continue to get invited to the festival type events like the Herstreit and whatever the event is at PBS? Just think of how many people look down their noses at the lower division schools in Ohio. Perry takes crap for playing D-3 Central, but I think it's been a good series.

It would only be worse when you add in the out of state factor with the Herbie. Do you think festival organizers would be willing to put a good D-1 Ohio team (pick any regional finalist) against the reigning smaller school champ from Florida? I don't see a D-2 Massillon, or any D-2 school being involved in these events in the future.

[Smitty]

This whole argument / discussion about enrollment numbers (and open enrollment, "recruiting", etc.) is all red-herring.

There is a very small number of public school football teams that are consistently COMPETITIVE for a football championship (eg. us, McKinley, Warren, Colerain) year-after-year-after-year. Most public schools will have ONE good shot in their history (eg, Fairfield, H.H.Wayne, Lima Sr., Gahanna Lincoln) and never be heard from again.

Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that the parochial schools defy all statistical trends? As good as Moeller was under Gerry Faust in the 1960s, they got their behinds spanked in their first TWO playoff appearances ('73 & '74) before going on a streak. FWIW, between 1917 and 1987, Ignatius football won a rousing 64% of their games; but has strangely won a remarkable 94% and 9 (!) football championships since 1988 (and at least 1 championship in EVERY boys sport offered!). It's RARE when any school wins two state championships (different sports) in a single school year -- and how many did St X just win?? Hmmmm?

I'd dare OHHSAA to bring football officials in from PA, MI, or BF-Egypt instead of the "championship" crew I saw last December.

[scottyotc]

and the choir said amen....

st james ame...

[longtimefirsttime]

This program has been built for over 100 years on the concept of striving to be the absolute best. It's why we have the facilities we do, it's why we hire the coaches we do, it's why we have the fan base we do, it's why we have the booster club we do, it's why we have the schedules we do. Trying to be the best is why we've bought teams out of their contracts in order to get better teams on our schedule, it's why we are playing in the Herbstreit Challenge. For 100 years we played and measured ourselves against the best.

OK.....so we go DII. We're still going to play McK, Warren, Ignatius. We're still going to play events like Moeller in PBS, Herbstreit, Valdosta. Our regular season schedule is still going to feature the best that D1 has to offer. Only now, when the chips are down and it really counts, we are going to play in the DII playoffs. WHY?

There are some that will say that viewpoint is macho. They'll say I'm not being fair to the kids. They'll say we aren't competitive anymore because we havn't won a title since '70. Fine...I respect your opinion...I will just never accept it. A DII title would seem hollow to me. Fair or unfair, that's just how I feel.

If you look at Region 2, there is no freaking way that we shouldn't be able to work our way to the regional final in most years. From that point, we have just as good a chance as anyone to win the title. To be honest, I'm suprised at a lot of the responses on here when we are just an offseason removed from going to the state finals. Doesn't that tell you that we can WIN in DI?

IMHO....if we have a choice to challenge ourselves against the best, and we opt out, then the very principles that our program has been built on will have been compromised.

Post of the month!
:tig:

[liner]

If you don't think Massillon would dominate D2 on a consistant basis,
you would need your head examined.

Of course there'd be a few years here and there, where Massillon
wouldn't win the crown. However, winning 6 or 7 years out of 10
years is likely. Is that domination?

........i have had my head examined a couple of times...proper medication cleared the fog........when the playoff system began ,the word in most of the state was massillon would dominate their division.......the tigers program is the best program without a title......but i want a leveler playing field...i also respect the opinions of other posters but i have predicted too many tiger playoff wins not to have learned this.......
...........don't count them chickens before they hatch.....i am hoping for but not predicting a title in 2006 .....in 1991 i watched the state's best team lose to 3 private schools.....that 14-13 iggy game still replays in my mind ....as woody hayes once said "why did we lose this game GOD?"
.........and finally,could massillon fans brag if we beat schools half our size?.........i get tired of the big private schools bragging when they should be tipping their hats to the tigers great efforts.......IMHO

[Smitty]

... i get tired of the big private schools bragging when they should be tipping their hats to the tigers great efforts....

The MINDLESS fans of those certain schools boast; the players (and the coaches & ADs) are eerily silent.

[massillonmarine]

the tigers program is the best program without a title

Maybe Massillon is like The Phil Mckelson of Football. We could win this year and a few more to boot.

HaHaHa....just a thought.

[tiger#22]

I'll say this: if we had won so much as one playoff title, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But as it is, people see 35 years of dissapointment, they see 3 losses in the title game, and a couple of other teams (91, 02, etc.) that coulda/shoulda won it all.

I am glad you were anointed as the speaker for the Massillon fans or "people" as you call us. Massillon will always be a Div 1 team UNLESS the OHSAA changes the enrollment figures and WHS doesnt have enough boys to play in Div 1 that will be the ONLY way it doesnt happen. The PC, feel-good admin. is about to change in alot of ways, as we all will see in the next 12 months.:deal:

[xtiger]

Regardless of your opinion on this subject.........where else in America
can you garner 143 posts in less than 3 days regarding this debacle?

As much as we complain, as much as we argue, that energy translates
in all of us to help carry-on the GREATEST Tradtion in High School Football!


GO TIGERS!

“In the beginning when The Great Creator was drawing plans for this world of ours , He decided there should be something for everyone. He gave us mountains that reach to the sky, deep blue seas, green forests, dry deserts, gorgeous flowers and gigantic trees.

Then he decided there should be football and he gave us Massillon. He created only one Massillon. He knew that would be enough.”

Ron Maly, Des Moines Sunday Register

[Grandma Turtle]

:gotigers:.................... :gogogo:.................... :gotigers:.................... :eyemouth:

[Obie Wan]

I am glad you were anointed as the speaker for the Massillon fans or "people" as you call us.
I have heard these comments, and I would wager that I'm not the only who has. Some people think that we can't and/or shouldn't try to compete in D1. Some of them are very reasonable people who have given a tremendous amount of support to the program for a very long time, as are many of the folks who think we should opt for D1. In fact, I'm sure you've heard both sides of the issue, too - unless your social circle doesn't extend beyond a small group of chest-thumping mouth-breathers.

Massillon will always be a Div 1 team UNLESS the OHSAA changes the enrollment figures and WHS doesnt have enough boys to play in Div 1 that will be the ONLY way it doesnt happen.
OHSAA did just change the rules, and Massillon will be a D2 school. We may opt to play in D1, but we will be a D2 school when we do it. That's what this whole discussion is about, remember?

And truth be told, it wouldn't surprise me at all if OHSAA decided keep the smaller D1 and eliminate the option of playing up.

The PC, feel-good admin. is about to change in alot of ways, as we all will see in the next 12 months
One can only hope that they are changes for the better.

[UnionTiger]

Earlier a statement was that would the Bucks rather play for The NCAA DI title or a smaller one. Some have mentioned that they would take second place in DI instead of first in DII. All i want to say is two words MOUNT UNION!
They have created a tradition like no other at the DIII football world. They have kids flocking from all over that do not get DI offers...
Tell me that each player that has been apart of those CHAMPIOSHIP TEAMS would give it up to finish second somewhere else. They will remember that game and the entire season for the rest of their lives...They will be able to pass on this tradition and experience to family, freinds and new players each year. They will talk about the wins and the TD's or the DEF. posting shut out after shut out.
Yes we have that same tradition from the past, the wins, the Championships, but that is based on how things were then. TIMES HAVE CHANGED.
People will always say negative stuff, we get it all the time regardless.
But those that chose second place or not placing at all, on the college level or high school level...go talk to former players from YSU or MOUNT that finished on top and let me hear their stories and see the excitement in their eyes, the pride flowing from their voice that they won a CHAMPIONSHIP.
Or just ask Coach Karres (spelling) why he stays at MOUNT? Not moving up.
Tell me that his answer will not have somthing to do with winning where he is at and CHAMPIONSHIPS. He could move up but will he have all the entangables that he has at MOUNT...

[longtimefirsttime]

Earlier a statement was that would the Bucks rather play for The NCAA DI title or a smaller one. Some have mentioned that they would take second place in DI instead of first in DII. All i want to say is two words MOUNT UNION!
They have created a tradition like no other at the DIII football world. They have kids flocking from all over that do not get DI offers...
Tell me that each player that has been apart of those CHAMPIOSHIP TEAMS would give it up to finish second somewhere else. They will remember that game and the entire season for the rest of their lives...They will be able to pass on this tradition and experience to family, freinds and new players each year. They will talk about the wins and the TD's or the DEF. posting shut out after shut out.
Yes we have that same tradition from the past, the wins, the Championships, but that is based on how things were then. TIMES HAVE CHANGED.
People will always say negative stuff, we get it all the time regardless.
But those that chose second place or not placing at all, on the college level or high school level...go talk to former players from YSU or MOUNT that finished on top and let me hear their stories and see the excitement in their eyes, the pride flowing from their voice that they won a CHAMPIONSHIP.
Or just ask Coach Karres (spelling) why he stays at MOUNT? Not moving up.
Tell me that his answer will not have somthing to do with winning where he is at and CHAMPIONSHIPS. He could move up but will he have all the entangables that he has at MOUNT...


UnionTiger-As I've told and posted previously, I see both sides of the argument. Mount & Youngstown State have had good programs at their level. However they're not Ohio State. The Tigers are a premier program and should play in the "premier division". I'm not taking anything away from the other divisions. It's just the way I feel.

[austinsm11]

So when has Mount Union played Division I football? It's not that we don't respect these smaller programs. I would have been very proud to be on any one of these teams from Mount Union.

This whole debate is if we can compete at DI. Some base competing as winning championships while others look at our play-off records and see us getting to regional/state finals as being able to compete. If we can not compete, then go to DII. But then it goes back to how one views competing.

Lets say Mount Union is in the Big Ten. They have good teams and have beaten Ohio State and Michigan on occasion, but not too often. They haven't won a national title so they drop to a lower division and win the championship. I think this is closer to our situation than how you describe Mount Union football. If this was the scenario,and I was at Mount Union, I would take a Big Ten Championship over a DII or DIII national title.

I'll say this: if we had won so much as one playoff title, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
I agree

Also, very good post Smitty!

[MTFootBall59]

Ya well collage and high school ball is very different at least thats wut coach stacy says... let me tell you all this the team and me have talked all about this kind of situation and we all agreee that we would ANYTIME take a runner up d1 then a d2 ship we have all talked about that and as well about havein the private schools have a leauge of there own o and anouther thing HAHA federal leauge i mean come on i dont kno about the rest of u but i mean it souds like we r getting to desprate for a ship i mean i want one but i mean come on federal lueage? d2? i mean look at wut we did to hoover last year and round 2 of McK
i mean our schedual(spelling lol) is the 8th hardest in the NATION this year at least thats what i hear and read

~Mike~

[austinsm11]

Ya well collage and high school ball is very different at least thats wut coach stacy says... let me tell you all this the team and me have talked all about this kind of situation and we all agreee that we would ANYTIME take a runner up d1 then a d2 ship we have all talked about that and as well about havein the private schools have a leauge of there own o and anouther thing HAHA federal leauge i mean come on i dont kno about the rest of u but i mean it souds like we r getting to desprate for a ship i mean i want one but i mean come on federal lueage? d2? i mean look at wut we did to hoover last year and round 2 of McK
i mean our schedual(spelling lol) is the 8th hardest in the NATION this year at least thats what i hear and read

Good to know how the players are looking at it!

[ChronicTiger]

Ya well collage and high school ball is very different at least thats wut coach stacy says... let me tell you all this the team and me have talked all about this kind of situation and we all agreee that we would ANYTIME take a runner up d1 then a d2 ship we have all talked about that and as well about havein the private schools have a leauge of there own o and anouther thing HAHA federal leauge i mean come on i dont kno about the rest of u but i mean it souds like we r getting to desprate for a ship i mean i want one but i mean come on federal lueage? d2? i mean look at wut we did to hoover last year and round 2 of McK
i mean our schedual(spelling lol) is the 8th hardest in the NATION this year at least thats what i hear and read

~Mike~

:eek:

pretty cool post (and kind of funny) until that last statement. i think having a team from canada on the schedule automatically drops you out of the top 25.......

:rock:

[MTFootBall59]

OMG im laughin soo hard no there saposed to be good well acculay coach dosent kno how good they r but its tuff to get plp when ur the state runner up

[ChronicTiger]

OMG im laughin soo hard no there saposed to be good well acculay coach dosent kno how good they r but its tuff to get plp when ur the state runner up

dude stop with the comedy...........

Tigers 203
Canada 0

saposed to be good?

:wtf:

[MTFootBall59]

LMAO!!

[ChronicTiger]

LA Dragons 77
Canada 3

[UnionTiger]

Most people in this town do not expect to just compete. From the blue collar person to the white collar person they want to win and win all the time. Yes I am proud just the same for our kids if they win every game or lose every game. But the Coach that gets hired here is not here to just be competitive. We have had coaches fired or chased out of town but were very competitive based on their overall record... They were shown the door because people felt we should have won the whole thing. Just in recent years Maronto, Rose, Shepas or you can go back 30, 40, 50 years and have examples of the same..guys that win but not THE one that counts. I am not saying it is ok but just stating the fact that this town will never settle for just ok. And if you think you can convince me that winning a DII or DIII title is less than being competitive at the DI level.. it will never happen
I was raised to play hard and play to win. Being in second place or a tie was like kissing your sister. I was taught that you compete to win. Yes you get better with every game you play, win or lose but by God don't be happy with a loss. I learned by a loss...I learned I hated it and never to accept it.
To ask what MOunt would do vs. the big ten is dumb because it will never happen..why because of enrollment and standards like the same as high school. If you fall in that Division, you should play in that division and win because you are the best. YSU and MOUNT won because they were the best at there level, just as the BUCKS did. You can not compare apples to oranges. We are DI now and that is what we are playing for, but if our enrollment goes down to the next level than so be it and win at that level. I have personally been on both sides of the fence at the high school level as a coach, losing in a state game and as a fan watching my brother win at YSU, as a player I was told I was not good enogh for the BIG SHOW and had to settle for the MINORS. I am sure others on here can say the same. Losing the state title game still kills me and being told your good but not that good was worse. My brother sits across from me at holidays with his ring and I am so proud of it like I was part of it.
I hate saying it but in my liftime I do not see us winning a DI title because of the entangables that have been mentioned by others and myself. On the otherhand I do see us competitve every year... and other local schools winning CHAMPIONSHIPS against teams at their level, not just being cometitive but being at the TOP.

[longtimefirsttime]

I hate saying it but in my lifetime I do not see us winning a DI title because of the entangables that have been mentioned by others and myself.


They came 8 points shy of winning a state title about 8 months ago. It's not an insurmountable feat.

[tiger#22]

I have heard these comments, and I would wager that I'm not the only who has. Some people think that we can't and/or shouldn't try to compete in D1. Some of them are very reasonable people who have given a tremendous amount of support to the program for a very long time, as are many of the folks who think we should opt for D1. In fact, I'm sure you've heard both sides of the issue, too - unless your social circle doesn't extend beyond a small group of chest-thumping mouth-breathers.


OHSAA did just change the rules, and Massillon will be a D2 school. We may opt to play in D1, but we will be a D2 school when we do it. That's what this whole discussion is about, remember?

And truth be told, it wouldn't surprise me at all if OHSAA decided keep the smaller D1 and eliminate the option of playing up.


One can only hope that they are changes for the better.

"Chest-thumping mouth-breathers" ?? Someone has been listening to way too much Colin Cowherd,,,,,
The point of my argument about the OHSAA changing the rules was that there wouldnt be the option of moving up to Div 1, then and only then will Massillon be Div 2.
I am still waiting for your answer,,Did you think at anytime last season that Massillon wasnt able to compete talent-wise with any of the 14 teams they played? Would they have been better off last year in Div 2 ? How about this year? Next? and why....I wont hold my breath...:snore:

[tiger#22]

I hate saying it but in my liftime I do not see us winning a DI title because of the entangables that have been mentioned by others and myself. On the otherhand I do see us competitve every year... and other local schools winning CHAMPIONSHIPS against teams at their level, not just being cometitive but being at the TOP.

I guess last year was just a dream...they should have been playing Toledo Central Catholic,,right??
Am I wrong in saying the Massillon Tigers have been to 3 Final 4's and a State Title game in just the last 5 seasons,,,in DIVISION ONE...I guess those entangables are just too much to overcome huh...Please dont bring that negative attitude to PBTS or around any of the players this season,,,I find it unbelievable that we have a Coach who in his first season took the Tigers to the Title game and yet we still have people who think they wont win a title in their lifetimes......:wall: :wall: :wall:

[President skroob]

:sad2: It is what it is. Possibly and end of an era and the start of a new one. Our neighbors will be laughing but deep down relieved.:sad:

[xtiger]

They came 8 points shy of winning a state title about 8 months ago. It's not an insurmountable feat.

It would be nice to get that trophy before Jesus comes again!

[TigerBob75]

After thinking this over, I think that our Tigers,going to D2 might will have a hard time winning that title. First of all, think about it , you play a schedule of mainly D1 teams because no one in D2 wants to play you during the regular season ( maybe only those who FEEL they have a GOOD team that year). You go 8-2 or 7-3, you have enough points to be second or third in any region in D1, and you know that you can compete and make it to the next levels. BUT NOOOO, you can't go on in D1. Sorry you have to play for the D2 title. To me that would be a big big let down. I wouldn't know if I could really get up for it. Or maybe I'd get "road rage angry" and totally cursh everyone in my path, take the trophy, put it in the middle of Lincoln Way and Erie, put one of those td bombers up its rear and show the OHSAA what they could with it....just a thought. :tig: :ers: :gotigers:

[Fats]

First, Massillon would have to chose Div. I (opt up). The question I have if as some people say we have trouble scheudling now. How will the scheudling be when we are in Div II . Will it be easier to schedule a Div. II schedule? I do not think so. More Div. II teams will run from us then we have afraid of us now.
Also, if any person can say that a Div II title is the say as a Div. I title, you are fooling yourself. Every program wants to be the Top Dog and Div. II just doesn't get it. If we are forced to go to Div. II then not much we can do. I would celebrate any win of the Tigers. But, as I said earlier, if we are forced to go to Div. II then we should opt up to Div. I and when we are forced by to Div. II then play a Div. I schedule.

[kenhrln]

Don.t have to change the schedule. We keep playing who we have been.
What division you are in. Has nothing to do with who you play in regular season.

[Smitty]

A "side" thought for additional discussion:

Would Steubenville, if they have a "loaded" team as they last had in '84, step up to D-1?

[MTown]

Can't wait for that very first road playoff game in that DII stadium.

Can't wait for the next coaching search. I'm sure the best candidates will be knocking down the doors for a chance to coach a DII school.



Also, the Mount Union arguement does not hold water with me. Mount Union wins title after title, but are they considered the best football team in the country? No, because they didn't play the best competition. I want Massillon to play and beat the very best. That will not happen in Division II.

[Fats]

Maybe a lawsuit should be filed that the total enrollment of a school (boys and girls) can be counted for the Division numbers. In today's world a girl could play football so why are they not counted towards are numbers.

[Tiger Don]

With 126 schools competing in Division 2 in next year's setup, a team will have to go at least 8-2 to make the playoffs. Given Massillon's current scheduling difficulties, a very good team could finish 8-2 or 9-1, enough points to make the playoffs, whereas an average or sub-average team will probably fall short. So if Massillon opts to stay in Division 2, they can expect to make the D2 playoffs perhaps once every three years. However, 6-4 may be enough in D1 to get in.

So, stay in D2, but downgrade the schedule. Easier said than done.

Or, keep the schedule and go to D1. Maybe never win the title, but have a lot more fun trying.

[Benchboss1]

I want Massillon to play and beat the very best. That will not happen in Division II.[/QUOTE]


It also has not happened in division 1 either.


I know that this is not going to be popular, but some folks need to stop thinking with their egos, and start using their heads. I guess that some people will be happier playing in division 1, just for pride sake, then win stste championships.

I bet the folks at schools like St. Henry, Akron Buchtel, Versailes, Avon Lake etc. etc. just hate to walk by their trophy cases and see their football state championship trophies sitting there. They probably just shake their heads and say to themselves, boy, I sure wish those were division 1 trophies.

If anybody thinks that what happened last year is going to happen on a regular basis, then they need to rethink things. History says it just is not going to happen. We will be able to compete when we have a great class/classes coming through our hallways, but other than that, it just isn't going to happen year in and year out.

We could not win it in '91, '01, or '02. What makes people think that we will be able to compete at the highest level every year?

[Seeker]

I bet the folks at schools like St. Henry, Akron Buchtel, Versailes, Avon Lake etc. etc. just hate to walk by their trophy cases and see their football state championship trophies sitting there. They probably just shake their heads and say to themselves, boy, I sure wish those were division 1 trophies.

I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them do.

[Benchboss1]

I also have a few problems with the post by TigerDon.

First, he says that an average, subpar team will not make the playoffs in division 2. Is there a reason that we would expect to make a deep run in the division 1 playoffs if we are average or subpar?

Secondly, he makes it sound like all 126 teams that would be in division 2 would be playoff quality teams. Highly unlikely.

The third problem I have with his post is this, just how is LOSING more fun than winning a state championship?

I love Massillon as much as ANYBODY does, but we also need to accept things for what they really are, not for what we as fans want/think they are.

[Obie Wan]

With 126 schools competing in Division 2 in next year's setup, a team will have to go at least 8-2 to make the playoffs. Given Massillon's current scheduling difficulties, a very good team could finish 8-2 or 9-1, enough points to make the playoffs, whereas an average or sub-average team will probably fall short. So if Massillon opts to stay in Division 2, they can expect to make the D2 playoffs perhaps once every three years. However, 6-4 may be enough in D1 to get in.
If our schedule isn't going to change, that's something to consider.

At the end of the day, it may boil down to this: go D2 with fewer appearances and more titles, or go D1 with more playoff games and fewer titles. Or this: would you rather have 1 D1 title every 40 years or a D2 title every 3-5 years?

[austinsm11]

If our schedule isn't going to change, that's something to consider.

At the end of the day, it may boil down to this: go D2 with fewer appearances and more titles, or go D1 with more playoff games and fewer titles. Or this: would you rather have 1 D1 title every 40 years or a D2 title every 3-5 years?

Good thought. I really don't see us being able to change our schedule much if we go to DII. Personally I would take more playoff games and fewer titles, but thats just me.

Now, the real question. What will the administration choose?

[Smitty]

What we DON'T know and can't even begin to speculate on at this time: What good D-2 teams (eg Nordonia, Maple Hts) might WANT to opt-up and play in the D-1 playoffs?

We won't know who'll be left in D-2 and who'll be "up" in D-1. This could get very interesting.

[liner]

I also have a few problems with the post by TigerDon.

First, he says that an average, subpar team will not make the playoffs in division 2. Is there a reason that we would expect to make a deep run in the division 1 playoffs if we are average or subpar?

Secondly, he makes it sound like all 126 teams that would be in division 2 would be playoff quality teams. Highly unlikely.

The third problem I have with his post is this, just how is LOSING more fun than winning a state championship?

I love Massillon as much as ANYBODY does, but we also need to accept things for what they really are, not for what we as fans want/think they are........

........i agree with you for sure but will go with the flow and stick with the div1 or 2 tigers as you will.......of all the heartbreakers the 91 team made me feel i would never see a state championship in massillon again...they were flat good on both sides of the ball........if ohsaa had simply made massillon div. 2 ,would there be all this discussion?.....i think they should leave it alone or be firm......i know their trying to be fair but now the secound guessing will be endless......imho......:gotigers: ....

[Tiger Don]

Obie Wan -- exactly my point

[Obie Wan]

What we DON'T know and can't even begin to speculate on at this time: What good D-2 teams (eg Nordonia, Maple Hts) might WANT to opt-up and play in the D-1 playoffs?

We won't know who'll be left in D-2 and who'll be "up" in D-1. This could get very interesting.

After doing some rudimentary analysis it's pretty clear that it will be easier to make the playoffs in D1 than in D2 after the realignment (and before any opt-ups). However, the same mentality that leads schools to build "safe" schedules based on Harbin calculations may lead them to go D1 just because they think it's an easier road to the postseason. They don't have any intention of competing after they get there, mind you, but they do want to claim that they made the cut.

[OBEE]

Tiger Don: I don't understand why we wouldn't qualify for DII playoffs with the number of points we accumulate playing a DI schedule....Wouldn't we had the same number of computer points last year, even if we were a DII team. Where would those computer points put us compared to the other teams that made the DII playoffs last year???

[longtimefirsttime]

So, stay in D2, but downgrade the schedule. Easier said than done.

Or, keep the schedule and go to D1. Maybe never win the title, but have a lot more fun trying.

I'll go with option B. Option A seems tailored for the Federal League (sorry to bring that subject up again).

[longtimefirsttime]

Will it be easier to schedule a Div. II schedule? I do not think so. More Div. II teams will run from us then we have afraid of us now.


That's a good point. And what would a strong D-1 program get out of it? A loss gets them nothing. And a win gets them fewer first level points than beating a D-1 team. Would Ignatius want to do that? That would leave the Tigers with a few options if they would go D-2. They could play crappy D-1 teams who are looking for a payday at PBTS and hope that teams like Ignatius (and Herbstreit opponents) would still be interested in being on the schedule. Or they could play a D-2 schedule with many road games being played in stadiums not large enough for the many Tiger fans (wasn't that a knock on the Fed schools?). There are just so many reasons I'm against the D-2 proposal.

[longtimefirsttime]

It would be nice to get that trophy before Jesus comes again!

I agree but it CAN be done in Division 1. There is no need to accept less.

[Big Fan Van]

The way i see it, if you want an outsiders piont of view. Division 2 is a tough division. I really don't think there's all that much difference between the skill levels. Although, more times than not the division 1 champion could beat the division 2 champion. Yes theres alot of pride in winning the division 2 title, but I really dont think it could equal the division 1 title, even if you could beat the division 1 winner. I think most people on here are assuming that Massillon, if in division 2 would just walk away with the title. Not that easy, get a grip on yourselves. Ok, lets say Massillon did go to division 2 and win it all. Would you really be satisfied? The first thought that would come to my mind is "yeah its A title, but its not THE title. Probable not the most politically correct way to think of it, but it probably is still the way most people would think of the situation. Back to the division 2 title. Again lets say Massillon did win it. I'm also sure that most of your fan base would be thinking about "if we can win it all in division 2, and the skill level from 1 to 2 is not that much, i wonder how we would have done in the division 1 title game." I think the hurt would be worse going to division 2 and winning a title with that thought running through my head, than the hurt that would come forth by not winning the division 1 title, knowing that someday it will come. Look at how far Massillon has come from 2 years ago to last year. Still almost pulled it off. Thats why you opt to division 1. You never know for sure what is around the corner. Why win the division 2 title when you might have won the division 1 title?

[Tiger Don]

Last year it took an average of 20 computer points for a team to qualify in Division 1. In Region 2, the teams were:

McKinley
Findlay
Massillon
Toledo St. John's
Elyria
North Canton
Sylvania Northview
Brunswick

With the new alignment, Massillon, St. John's and Northview move to Division 2, opening the door for Hudson, Jackson and Mansfield to enter the D1 field. Interestingly, No. 8 Mansfield finished 5-5 with a mere 14 computer points. This reinforces my point that it will be easier to qualify in D1.

Had the new alignment been effect last year, the Division 2 results would have been:

Avon Lake
Massillon
Toledo St. John's
Sylvania Southview
Sylvania Northview
Toledo Rogers
Mansfield Madison
Amherst Steele

No team would have had less than a 7-3 record and it would have taken 18 points to grab the final spot. Last year, 17 points were needed for 8th, so this has gone up slightly.

So, this year it will take 20 points for D1 and 17 for D2. Next year it will take 14 for D1 and 18 for D2. Thus it will be easier to qualify in D1, assuming the same schedule we play this year. Of course, the competition will be stiffer in D1. Then again, Avon Lake, Toledo St. John's and Mansfield Madison would be worthy competition in D2.

A good Massillon team would finish high in the D2 rankings and probably walk right through the playoffs. But an average team (meaning about half the time) would probably not qualify for D2 (figuring a 6-4 record at best), in spite of perhaps being the best team in the region. But that 6-4 record would probably be good enough to qualify in D1.

So the underlying question is: Should Massillon opt for D1 and qualify for the playoffs nearly every year, yet make state occasionally or opt for D2 and qualify for the playoffs every other year, yet have many opportunities for a state title?

[TigerVic]

I haven't read this whole thread as I just got back from vacation.

However, no Tiger worth his salt would shrink away from playing the most challenging schedule or playoff route possible.

The litmus test should be: What would Paul Brown do?

[massillonmarine]

I kind of agree with Big Fan Van. If we were to win the next 8 out of 10 State Championships with 9 appearances (overexaggerated, of course...or not...lol) would we be ok with that? Wouldn't this town be wondering couldn't we win the Division 1 Championship since likely we would have gone on average(taken the Massillon History) of at least a 7-3 record against one of the best Division 1 schedules in the State. I'd rather play the best, beat the best, and leave no stone unturned. That's just me though.

[tiger#22]

[/QUOTE]


If anybody thinks that what happened last year is going to happen on a regular basis, then they need to rethink things. History says it just is not going to happen. We will be able to compete when we have a great class/classes coming through our hallways, but other than that, it just isn't going to happen year in and year out.

We could not win it in '91, '01, or '02. What makes people think that we will be able to compete at the highest level every year?[/QUOTE]

3 Final 4's with one of those years a trip to the Title game in the last FIVE years says it is happening on a regular basis. I would rather have the last 5 years happen on a regular basis then win a title in Div 2. I will take 2 sub-par seasons in those 5 if it means having a serious shot at a title in the other 3 years.

[tiger#22]

At the end of the day, it may boil down to this: go D2 with fewer appearances and more titles, or go D1 with more playoff games and fewer titles. Or this: would you rather have 1 D1 title every 40 years or a D2 title every 3-5 years?

If we continue to hear about how bad the $$ situation is with the Massillon program they better stick with Div 1 and more playoff games, or they can drop to Div 2 and not make the playoffs on a consistent basis and PBTS will look like a ghost town...:ohno:

[tiger#22]

I haven't read this whole thread as I just got back from vacation.

However, no Tiger worth his salt would shrink away from playing the most challenging schedule or playoff route possible.

The litmus test should be: What would Paul Brown do?

In that case Vic you dont want to read this thread because there seems to be a few of those so called Tigers that arent worth their salt. I think we all know what Paul Brown would do but I guess he would just be thinking with his ego and not his brain...:wall:

[Benchboss1]

3 Final 4's with one of those years a trip to the Title game in the last FIVE years says it is happening on a regular basis. I would rather have the last 5 years happen on a regular basis then win a title in Div 2. I will take 2 sub-par seasons in those 5 if it means having a serious shot at a title in the other 3 years.[/QUOTE]





Well Tiger22, if you are happy and content with counting final fours, then your theory is fantastic. However, most folks only care about who the champion is when it is all said and done with. Tell me, off the top of your head, who the 4 participants in the NFL conference championship games 3 years ago were.

It is just my opinion, but I think that most folks would rather win a state championship as compared to a regional championship. I guess that you are in the minority who can accept LOSING/FAILURE!!:wall:

I also find it ironic that you only mention the last five seasons in your post. Why don't you go back and check out the last 10 years. Then check out the last 15 years. Then the last 20. Then get back on here and post what you find. I bet the numbers will not be as skewered in favor of your side of the discussion.

One last thing, shouldn't this be about the kids? Do you actually believe that the kids for the next 10 years or so would rather NEVER win a division 1 state title than win at least 1 division 2 state title? Think about that for a minute.

[Benchboss1]

I agree but it CAN be done in Division 1. There is no need to accept less.








Maybe it CAN be done, but to this point, it HASN"T! :doh:

[Benchboss1]

In that case Vic you dont want to read this thread because there seems to be a few of those so called Tigers that arent worth their salt. I think we all know what Paul Brown would do but I guess he would just be thinking with his ego and not his brain...:wall:








Again, Paul Brown coached here over 75 years ago!!!!!! Things have changed!! Is this so hard to understand. We cannot afford to think that things are the same as when PB was here, can we? Alot of the things that we did because of Paul Brown, EVERYBODY is now doing and doing it with more athletes!!. Big difference!!

[TIGER27]

Alright, now this gets my fired up! Who the #$@# do we think we are? Anyone who is even thinking about moving down to DII needs to remember what Massillon is all about. The greatest show in highschool football isn't in DII. It's about Legends like Speilman Spencer Franklin Zwick Crable and soon to be added Dailey. We're not a DII team.

[Red50Go]

Thats the Tiger spirit! We have only been to 3 title games in 35 years and lost all 3 to private schools but the next 35 we'll be in at least dozen or more because we are Massillon the greatest program in Ohio. Reality check.


I highly doubt 8-10 state championships in Div.2 would have devasted our tradition and reputation across Ohio like it has going 0-35, like it or not. Even if we do win a title it wont be enough to change that, at this point. What are we still trying to prove? We have already proven we are a very good, and an occasional power, regardless of div. That doesn't change. We need to be cool w/ that.

[Kamd50]

That's the Tiger Spirit! Showing how much confidence you have in this and our future generations of Massillon kids:thumbsdown:

[TigerCoach]

I think those of you who think we would dominate in Division II every year should re-think it. Toledo Central Catholic is another parochial.

[Smitty]

Again, Paul Brown coached here over 75 years ago!!!!!! Things have changed!! Is this so hard to understand. We cannot afford to think that things are the same as when PB was here, can we? Alot of the things that we did because of Paul Brown, EVERYBODY is now doing and doing it with more athletes!!. Big difference!!

Since Paul Brown moved on (in 1941), we've maintained the HIGHEST caliber of H.S. football under Mather, Tressel, Strang, Bruce, & Commings. I don't fault any one of our teams or coaching staffs since '72 for not bringing home the BIG trophy. We've been very, very close on numerous occasions since '72.

THIS is the football program that others COPY. THIS is the program that many others are quite envious of.

I'll tell YOU what the "big difference" is: We've been doing this for 110 years... Moe for 45, Iggy for 18. God-only-knows what they've done to get their brief moment in the spotlight... and it's comming to an end for them.

[austinsm11]

Well Tiger22, if you are happy and content with counting final fours, then your theory is fantastic. However, most folks only care about who the champion is when it is all said and done with.

This is crazy. Who isn't happy with this? Of course everyone wants to win a DI championship. We get the semifinals or finals and now I get the impression that some of you are crying. We can't win the big one so lets play lesser opponents. I bet Mckinley, Warren, St. Ignatius, and a number of other top DI programs would have been happy with our results from last year.

I would totally go for the argrument if we were having trouble making playoffs, not getting to the final four or STATE FINALS, etc......but we have been.

I guess that you are in the minority who can accept LOSING/FAILURE!!

A. It seems like most posters on here would prefer to stay DI, so how is that in the minority?

B. What a great run last year was, in particular. You gonna go tell the players that they are failures?


I also find it ironic that you only mention the last five seasons in your post.
Shouldn't that be an encouraging sign that we are getting closer and closer to winning it all? If we are getting closer and closer to a DI championship, why drop to DII?


One last thing, shouldn't this be about the kids?
Can't speak for kids over the next 10 years, but according to 1 current football poster on here they would never want to go DI.

[austinsm11]

Also, it seems like we are able to beat about anyone in DI with the exception of only a couple private shools. Couldn't this be a reality for us at DII as well? Able to beat everyone with only a couple private schools being able to stop us in the semifinals or finals?

[Red50Go]

That's the Tiger Spirit! Showing how much confidence you have in this and our future generations of Massillon kids:thumbsdown:

Whats that supposed to mean? I am confident we will be in at least 3 of the next 35 championship games. I am hopeful for more, and hopeful we'll win one. But I am not delusional or arrogant.

I am not sure how I even feel yet. But I have asked myself many times in prior years, how well have we, our fans, served our kids putting the pressure we put on them? They are kids. We expect excellence and all the values we talk about etc etc, but in reality "most" of us expect winning - and a whole lot more than what we've accomplished. Like I said in another thread, if we are div.2 then we are div.2. I dont like it but my problem is not w/ that, it is that our enrollment has dropped 13 of 15 years and THATS what we need to do something about. NOT put it all on our kids!

[Benchboss1]

I bet Mckinley, Warren, St. Ignatius, and a number of other top DI programs would have been happy with our results from last year.







I highly doubt that your above statement is accurate. Keep in mind, the three schools that you named have all won a state championship during the play-off era. In case you missed the memo, we have NOT!! :wall:

So, please explain why they would be happy NOT winning the state championship after their program has already held the holy grail that we covet so much.:doh: