Parochial School Recruiting

[TigerCoach]

Not to bring up an obvious disparity in the OHSAA rules again, but I had to tell you guys & gals something I ran into recently. I was at a Catholic church in Hudson Saturday night for Mass for a friend. My 2-yr old isn't too patient for a church service, so I had took him out in the hall. I was reading the bulletin board and saw a recruiting letter, errrrrrr, an "informational meeting" letter to come visit St. Ignatius High School and receive a free t-shirt and grant information. There was also a poster that advertised the same thing for all 4 Akron schools, Walsh Jesuit, St. V, Hoban and Our Lady of The Elms. At least the 4 Akron schools do it together and not make it a "big event."

[monte81]

I know the coach for Cincinnati Withrow Doc Gamble--and the tyler kid#83 from moeller and Darius Ashley should be attending his school as well as many other private school elite players!! The grants are used to recruit athletes and that is a problem that the OHSAA ignores! He lost 8-12 starters the last 2 years to private university high schools! If the privates didnt have that advantage then X, Moeller, Iggy, and Ed's would be mediocore programs in Ohio!

[TigerCoach]

Monte,

How about making some fliers and posting them all around C-bus to come to Massillon for an "informational meeting" about Washington High School. We can discuss the academics, and especially the vocational departments, which not many schools have. From what I read, it's legal to promote the school, just not any particular program or team.

[Obie Wan]

First, we should probably make the distinction between actions that are "illegal" and those that violate OHSAA bylaws. It is not illegal to recruit students. However, it is a violation of OHSAA bylaws. From the bylaws:

"4-9-2 For purposes of this Bylaw Section 9, the term “recruit” shall mean the use of influence by any person connected or not connected with the school to secure the transfer of a prospective student-athlete.
EXCEPTION: Mass marketing of a school directed to a general population of students does not constitute prohibited recruiting.

4-9-3 Prior to enrollment, a student-athlete may visit a public or non-public school in contemplation of transfer, as long as that contemplated transfer is consistent with Board of Education or similar governing board policy formally adopted by that school district and arrangements for the visit are made through the principal and/or school administrator designated by the Board of Education or similar governing board."

This creates some interesting scenarios:
- We certainly can promote Massillon all over the state. We could even put our own flyers in local churches (not that they would let us).
- It would be dead easy to mail a brochure to every family that lives in the city of Massillon but not in the school district. For that matter, we could mail every family in the Jackson, Perry, and Tuslaw districts for a pittance.
- Tom Stacy needs a "real job". Why not make him the "school administrator designated by the Board of Education or similar governing board"?

[SuperBran]

you know there's something up when they all have stopwatches at those "informational" meetings. LOL.

[TigerCoach]

That's what I'm talking about, Obie Wan, by the bylaws. It can't hurt us.

[monte81]

Man its a freshman at columbus desales that is a monster ( this was back in july so i didnt know he was that good)-- his father is retired military and recently moved to Columbus he came into my office looking for employment. Before I could greet him he was like wow!!! he was referring to the picture of me at the Mass-mcK game!( Making a monster hit on Lameul Flowers) He said Where is that? I responded Massillon and he said how can i get my son on that team!! Not knowing that it was 112 miles from columbus!

I brought my friends and some former players to the game!At the Mass-Iggy game we were beat but impressed some young bulldogs so much my star player asked his parents could he play for Massillon in high school!! that was surprising because the past three years i coached the vikings in canton and those kids worship mckinley!! The best thing is that the parents called me and said she would allow this to happen! Funny the kid is like my brother travis playing for the moose in massillon-- noone can see this kid when he touches the ball! It made me smile after the game and i laughed all night because his dad is also a bulldog booster!! I will stay on this one!

[obie7661]

Not to bring up an obvious disparity in the OHSAA rules again, but I had to tell you guys & gals something I ran into recently. I was at a Catholic church in Hudson Saturday night for Mass for a friend. My 2-yr old isn't too patient for a church service, so I had took him out in the hall. I was reading the bulletin board and saw a recruiting letter, errrrrrr, an "informational meeting" letter to come visit St. Ignatius High School and receive a free t-shirt and grant information. There was also a poster that advertised the same thing for all 4 Akron schools, Walsh Jesuit, St. V, Hoban and Our Lady of The Elms. At least the 4 Akron schools do it together and not make it a "big event."

I am absolutely shocked !!! What is world coming too.

[MR EMPTY PANTS]

Man its a freshman at columbus desales that is a monster ( this was back in july so i didnt know he was that good)-- his father is retired military and recently moved to Columbus he came into my office looking for employment. Before I could greet him he was like wow!!! he was referring to the picture of me at the Mass-mcK game!( Making a monster hit on Lameul Flowers) He said Where is that? I responded Massillon and he said how can i get my son on that team!! Not knowing that it was 112 miles from columbus!

I brought my friends and some former players to the game!At the Mass-Iggy game we were beat but impressed some young bulldogs so much my star player asked his parents could he play for Massillon in high school!! that was surprising because the past three years i coached the vikings in canton and those kids worship mckinley!! The best thing is that the parents called me and said she would allow this to happen! Funny the kid is like my brother travis playing for the moose in massillon-- noone can see this kid when he touches the ball! It made me smile after the game and i laughed all night because his dad is also a bulldog booster!! I will stay on this one!

hey monte, you wouldn`t be the monte we used to call "HOPPY" would ya? if you are it`s been a long time. lol. what`s up!!!!!!!!!

[PDC]

Who should decide where a kid goes to High School? The parents? The district? Fans who love public schools and hate private schools? (or vice versa)

I wanted to go to the local public school coming out of a catholic grade school. My dad wanted me to go to Ignatius. (and he is the product of a public school) Our local schools are very good, but I'm happy to this day that he convinced me to go to St Ignatius.

[monte81]

Who should decide where a kid goes to High School? The parents? The district? Fans who love public schools and hate private schools? (or vice versa)

I wanted to go to the local public school coming out of a catholic grade school. My dad wanted me to go to Ignatius. (and he is the product of a public school) Our local schools are very good, but I'm happy to this day that he convinced me to go to St Ignatius.

Thats cool PDC that you and your family made the right choice for you. Were you a athlete? Did you receive grant money to pay tuition? I am talking about using grant money/schlarships to give to student athletes just to play sports while the state of Ohio pays for the computers, books, and some salaries out of the public school funding!! It was an article a few weeks ago on this very issue in the Cincinnati paper! This is always been a unfair advantage! Look at CAPE (Cincinnati) in the late 80's and 90's who produced stars as Taver Johnson and Carlos Snow closed down because they didnt take the money from the state and couldnt operate above water! Without the assistance of the stae of Ohio some private schools couldnt and wouldnt attract alot of the superb athletes to play for their respective schools!!!

[PDC]

Thats cool PDC that you and your family made the right choice for you. Were you a athlete? Did you receive grant money to pay tuition? I am talking about using grant money/schlarships to give to student athletes just to play sports while the state of Ohio pays for the computers, books, and some salaries out of the public school funding!! It was an article a few weeks ago on this very issue in the Cincinnati paper! This is always been a unfair advantage! Look at CAPE (Cincinnati) in the late 80's and 90's who produced stars as Taver Johnson and Carlos Snow closed down because they didnt take the money from the state and couldnt operate above water! Without the assistance of the stae of Ohio some private schools couldnt and wouldnt attract alot of the superb athletes to play for their respective schools!!!

Monte,

I was an athlete, but i was certainly not a star by any means. I also did not get any money for sports, but my family did qualify for financial aid. (and Thank God we did because there were 3 of us at Ignatius and my sister was at a different private school.)

I also went to Ignatius back when the school was just starting to become a football power. I recall the days when you told someone you went to Ignatius. Their first reponse would be "You must be a good student." Now when you tell someone the same thing they ask you if you played football.

I think you'd be surprised if you walked around Ignatius. You'd see 1100 or 1200 boys (whatever the current number is,) and most couldn't catch or throw a football if their life depended on it.

I can see where public school supporters come from, but it's still a matter of choice. I'm glad someone other than my parents didn't make the decision where i go to HS. My dad grew up hating Ignatius but wanted his sons to go there. (and it had nothing to do with sports)

[Smitty]

Who's got the chicken-&-egg argument backwards?

YOU think the parochial / private schools recruit students to improve their football team.

I believe the parochial / private schools use their football team to recruit more students (and put $$$ in the bank).

[PDC]

Who's got the chicken-&-egg argument backwards?

YOU think the parochial / private schools recruit students to improve their football team.

I believe the parochial / private schools use their football team to recruit more students (and put $$$ in the bank).

Smitty,

Probably. Ignatius has an insane amount of money and more than enough alums willing to shell out money every year. I know many Iggy grads that give more money to the HS than they give to their colleges.

Ignatius is a big fraternity in a lot of ways.

[Smitty]

Smitty,... Ignatius has an insane amount of money .... Ignatius is a big fraternity in a lot of ways.

That's all very nice.



What's that got to do with my post? If you're trying to refute my position, your're failing. Miserably.

Are you trying to say the school (St Ignatius... or ANY parochial / private school) doesn't need more students or more money?

[PDC]

That's all very nice.



What's that got to do with my post? If you're trying to refute my position, your're failing. Miserably.

Are you trying to say the school (St Ignatius... or ANY parochial / private school) doesn't need more students or more money?

Smitty,

Right, I'm unarmed in a war with you. My bad!! :)

[JazzyJeff]

I know the coach for Cincinnati Withrow Doc Gamble--and the tyler kid#83 from moeller and Darius Ashley should be attending his school as well as many other private school elite players!! The grants are used to recruit athletes and that is a problem that the OHSAA ignores! He lost 8-12 starters the last 2 years to private university high schools! If the privates didnt have that advantage then X, Moeller, Iggy, and Ed's would be mediocore programs in Ohio!

That's not true. Ashley was never going to Withrow, it was either St. X or Summit Country Day, where Ashley went to grade school (its K-12). BTW, Doc Gamble is the Ted Ginn Sr. of Cincinnati, he's gained more kids that he can ever claim to have "lost."

At the end of the day, all financial aid is need based and determined by a third party. Even if a kid is getting half or even a two/thirds (unlikely) off of tuition, that's still over $2,500 to pay. The public school is still free.

[monte81]

if they have so many alums giving contributions and donations then buy your own computers, books, and pay your own teachers salaries! I am saying that the state of Ohio furnishes private schools with all this money to operate and take advantage of the system to recruit or should I say bargain athletes with financial aid! If I was a high school student in Cleveland or surrounding area i probably would jump at the chance to play for Iggy and go to school free!! Its a free ride high school education with the chance to be recruited by DI schools!! The way the rules and money is distrubuted is unfair! I know 10 schools in Columbus that need new books, more teachers, and computers-- and many other public school systems are in the same situation!! Columbus Desales is directly across the street from Brookhaven in columbus! Alot of their athletes were lured to Desales on the same schlarship/grant money! Some athletes ride the public bus at 5:45am to get to these schools!! Its all about athletic dollars.

[PDC]

if they have so many alums giving contributions and donations then buy your own computers, books, and pay your own teachers salaries! I am saying that the state of Ohio furnishes private schools with all this money to operate and take advantage of the system to recruit or should I say bargain athletes with financial aid! If I was a high school student in Cleveland or surrounding area i probably would jump at the chance to play for Iggy and go to school free!! Its a free ride high school education with the chance to be recruited by DI schools!! The way the rules and money is distrubuted is unfair! I know 10 schools in Columbus that need new books, more teachers, and computers-- and many other public school systems are in the same situation!! Columbus Desales is directly across the street from Brookhaven in columbus! Alot of their athletes were lured to Desales on the same schlarship/grant money! Some athletes ride the public bus at 5:45am to get to these schools!! Its all about athletic dollars.

Monte,

There are so many false statements here i don't even know where to start. This post proves you know little to nothing about Ignatius or how the school operates.

[monte81]

So you are telling me that NOTHING in the school is provided by the state of Ohio?? i know better than that! All im saying is that grants are given to athletes to make your team better. Every private school in Ohio recruits athletes!!! So how i I wrong!! It was just an article on this issue in the Cincinnati Enquierer a few weeks ago!

[JazzyJeff]

if they have so many alums giving contributions and donations then buy your own computers, books, and pay your own teachers salaries! I am saying that the state of Ohio furnishes private schools with all this money to operate and take advantage of the system to recruit or should I say bargain athletes with financial aid! If I was a high school student in Cleveland or surrounding area i probably would jump at the chance to play for Iggy and go to school free!! Its a free ride high school education with the chance to be recruited by DI schools!! The way the rules and money is distrubuted is unfair!

It's obvious you know little to nothing about Catholic schools.

1. Tell us how much public money is "furnished" to Ed's, Ignatius, etc.
2. Tell us how many students get "free rides."

I know 10 schools in Columbus that need new books, more teachers, and computers-- and many other public school systems are in the same situation!! Columbus Desales is directly across the street from Brookhaven in columbus! Alot of their athletes were lured to Desales on the same schlarship/grant money!
Just because the Columbus schools are unable to spend their money wisely, doesn't have a thing to do with DeSales or any other private school. I haven't looked it up, but I'd guess that these same schools that you say need new books spend at least 10 percent more per student that DeSales
does. Oh, and how many kids from Brookhaven were lured to DeSales?

Some athletes ride the public bus at 5:45am to get to these schools!! Its all about athletic dollars.
Sounds like someone is making a sacrifice (not just $$$) to better themselves. Why are we against this again?

[monte81]

Here PDC, I cut and pasted the article to save you the time!! I am against giving all this money to operate private schools and the public school kids are lacking the same materials! A youth would ride to schhool at 5:45 for an education and a chance to get a schlarship because the public schools sometimes dont even have the money to pay teachers, etc,... columbus schools had to cut 22 teachers and close 2 high schools for funding reasons and schools are overcrowded!! While the private schools maintain! How many teachers were let go at Iggy due to funding or budget cuts! The state has not cut off your free supply of dollars!!!

Who supports private schools?
Books, computers, buses, but also rules
BY DENISE SMITH AMOS | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER
Joanne Browarsky's sixth-graders at St. Cecilia elementary in Oakley read science books stamped "Property of Cincinnati Public Schools."

They sit at lab tables also technically owned by Cincinnati Public Schools.

Across town, in Monfort Heights, St. Ignatius elementary students disembark daily from school buses owned by Northwest schools.


And at St. Xavier High School, students use computers and software and dissect frogs and fetal pigs purchased by Finneytown schools.

Across the region and state, private and religious schools get tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer support each year from the Ohio Department of Education. Ohio is among the most generous states toward private and religious schools, national experts say.

In Hamilton, Butler, Warren and Clermont counties, private and religious schools received more than $40.3 million last year, mostly through what the state calls auxiliary services funds and administrative cost reimbursements.

Taxpayer support for private and religious schools is a longtime practice in Ohio established through legislative and court decisions.

State Sen. Teresa Fedor, a Toledo Democrat, said the state diverts funds from public schools to private ones.

"They're privatizing the public tax dollar," she said.

"It falls into a black hole of private schools and (education) companies," Fedor said, "so that the public dollar can't be publicly followed."

Cincinnati Archbishop Daniel Pilarczyk views it differently. Ohio, he said, is merely making sure all its students - in public and private schools - get an adequate education.

"I'm grateful for what we get," he said. "But this is not Lady Bountiful scattering goodies to the poor. This is a state government taking care of its citizens."

State auxiliary services funds pay for non-religious textbooks, educational equipment and the hiring of specialized school staff, such as nurses, psychologists and speech pathologists - all acquired through public school districts for private school use.

The state also reimburses private and religious schools directly for state-mandated tasks, such as taking attendance, holding fire drills and filling out paperwork.

The funds statewide totaled about $185 million last year - or about $899 per student - for private and religious schools. Add in about $60 million in transportation costs, since public schools bus private-school students, and Ohio spends about 3 percent of its $7.6 billion education budget on private and religious education.

The funding for private and religious schools has grown about 59 percent over 10 years, though overall enrollment has declined.

Add to that Ohio's new EdChoice voucher program, which will send more than 3,600 public school students and up to $18 million in state funds to private and religious schools.

"Ohio is probably the best in the nation in aid to nonpublic school children," said George Corwell, associate director for education for the Catholic Conference in New Jersey, a state that spends about $160 million on private schools.

Some of Cincinnati's most expensive schools get hundreds of thousands in state aid. The amount depends on enrollment.

St. Xavier, the largest local private school, received nearly $1.3 million from the state, which it used to buy technology, textbooks and science equipment. The state also pays for specialized staff, including a nurse who runs St. Xavier's version of "The Biggest Loser" game to encourage fitness.

Without this funding, "our guidance department would not be as strong, minus two counselors and a support person," said principal David B. Mueller. "Some of the business of the school ... would be considerably slower without the clerk."

School officials add that St. Xavier, which charges $9,475 tuition, will give students $1.7 million in scholarships and aid this year.

Other big private schools receiving state funds include Elder High in Price Hill, which last year received more than $944,000, and St. James Elementary in White Oak, which received $884,000.

Mostly this money helps students, said private school teachers and principals. Without it, schools wouldn't be able to buy textbooks or offer some special education or therapeutic services. They'd have to charge higher tuition.

"Just because a kid is Catholic, it doesn't mean they don't have speech problems, learning problems and need IEPs (individualized education plans)," said Catie Blum, principal of St. William School in Price Hill.

Marva Collins College Preparatory in Silverton started out with used textbooks, said Cleaster Mims, but now the 105-student school of mostly minority and economically disadvantaged students gets new textbooks, computers and software from the state.

Vouchers will help it recoup lost enrollment, she said.

There are some safeguards to the system, education officials said.

State auxiliary services funds don't go directly to private schools. They're sent first to public school districts, which employ staff to make sure the money is used for nonreligious purposes.

Also, the state sends staff to inspect the materials and classes.

That's why St. Ignatius separates state-sponsored computers from other computers. A prominent sign warns students not to use state computers for religious purposes.

Not all private schools want the state money.

About 461 private schools declined state money last year. Many are tiny, home-based classrooms run by parents, or small academies attached to churches.

Some say they don't want the state telling them what to teach. Others don't want to be forced to hire homosexuals.

"We don't take any money from the state; if you give in an inch, they'll take a mile," said K.L. Carpenter, principal of the 55-student Loveland Baptist School.

"If we accepted tax dollars, we'd have to teach evolution and a lot of things we don't believe in."

Public school leaders also have mixed feelings about the funds.

Public districts are the "fiscal agents" of the state, but they mostly adhere to private school requests for educational supplies and specialized personnel, "lending" them to the private schools.

With the $13.6 million Cincinnati Public handled last year for 55 private schools, "we could build a state-of-the-art school," said Janet Walsh, district spokeswoman.

Princeton schools oversaw more than $1 million in expenditures for six private schools. Larry McDonough, district treasurer, said that could pay 15 to 20 teachers' salaries.

"We would fund our textbook purchases every year and still have money left over," he said.

But if those private schools were to close, Princeton couldn't afford to absorb their students, he added.

"On the one hand ... it kind of looks like public schools are being deprived of money," he said. "But we would have capacity issues, plus the need for additional teachers (if nonpublic schools closed). In some regards, it's maybe not a bad idea for the state to support private schools

[monte81]

That's not true. Ashley was never going to Withrow, it was either St. X or Summit Country Day, where Ashley went to grade school (its K-12). BTW, Doc Gamble is the Ted Ginn Sr. of Cincinnati, he's gained more kids that he can ever claim to have "lost."

At the end of the day, all financial aid is need based and determined by a third party. Even if a kid is getting half or even a two/thirds (unlikely) off of tuition, that's still over $2,500 to pay. The public school is still free.

i didnt say Ashley was going to Withrow but lives in the Withrow school district just like alot of Elder, Moeller, and X students! They even take kids from Colerain when they can!!! Doc is a good coach and gets paid minimum salary and coaches because he loves the kids and he gets them into college! I say him pay for and drive kids all over the camp scene just to gain them college chances and even holds ACt/Sat prep classes for students!! All I am saying is build your own dynasty and stop recruiting across the state and keep it fair!!! If X wouldnt get all that free money maybe Doc could keep those kids in his school!!!

[JazzyJeff]

"On the one hand ... it kind of looks like public schools are being deprived of money," he said. "But we would have capacity issues, plus the need for additional teachers (if nonpublic schools closed). In some regards, it's maybe not a bad idea for the state to support private schools

The most important part was the last paragraph.

Next week is "thank private schools for existing" week.

[JazzyJeff]

i didnt say Ashley was going to Withrow but lives in the Withrow school district just like alot of Elder, Moeller, and X students! They even take kids from Colerain when they can!!!

You said Gamble "lost" Ashley, but how can someone be "lost" when he was never took a step inside the public schools? Elder students that actually live in Cincinnati proper, by and large, would attend Western Hills, not Withrow. Most Moeller kids don't even live in Cincinnati proper.

Who takes kids from Colerain? You mean the kids that live in Colerain and attend private schools their entire lives and end up at LaSalle?

BTW, Withrow steals kids from the other Cincinnati public high schools, something your good buddy forgot to tell you.

Doc is a good coach and gets paid minimum salary and coaches because he loves the kids and he gets them into college! I say him pay for and drive kids all over the camp scene just to gain them college chances and even holds ACt/Sat prep classes for students!!

I am not saying he isn't, but its kinda like tha pot calling the kettle black. Gamble is turning Withrow into Glenville South.

All I am saying is build your own dynasty and stop recruiting across the state and keep it fair!!! If X wouldnt get all that free money maybe Doc could keep those kids in his school!!!

Which dynasty is that?

[monte81]

You never mention the part about taking all that "free" money away from the public schools! School systems would not have to be overcrowded, needing books and computers-- not to count the unemployed public school teachers if we used that money in the proper prospectives! How many football players are getting grants or schlarships?

Jazzy Jeff,
Inner cities need the Doc gamble's and Ted Ginn's to look out and help inner city kids get college schlarships! Noone says a thing when those same inner city kids are helping OSU compete and win every year! Doc got over 10 kids in college last year and will probably get more this year!! I can really care less about the trophy but how these kids are taken care of after the friday night lights!! Do you how many great high school players get used every year and the schools dont care what happens past December there senior year!!! I am not saying your school however it happens everyday!!

[JazzyJeff]

I assume that by ignoring everything I posted earlier (such as Elder kids in should be going to Withrow), you are conceding that you really don't know what you are talking about.

You never mention the part about taking all that "free" money away from the public schools! School systems would not have to be overcrowded, needing books and computers-- not to count the unemployed public school teachers if we used that money in the proper prospectives! How many football players are getting grants or schlarships?

Private school parents pay taxes just like public school parents. Is it really that bad they get to use a small portion of it? As I posted earlier, would you prefer that the private schools disbanded and made schools ever more overcrowded or needed more books and computers? How about the extra salaries to pay the extra teachers? Whoops, forgot about that part didn't you?

50 percent of St. Edward students receive some form of financial aid, that's the only information I am privy to. I have been told that, like Ignatius, the percentage actually decreases on the football team, but have no information to back that up.

Your lack of knowledge how money is used and how much kids actually receive is little to none. The state money is used for transportation, books, etc., not scholarships or grants. Please stop throwing those words around like you have the first clue.

Jazzy Jeff,
Inner cities need the Doc gamble's and Ted Ginn's to look out and help inner city kids get college schlarships! Noone says a thing when those same inner city kids are helping OSU compete and win every year! Doc got over 10 kids in college last year and will probably get more this year!! I can really care less about the trophy but how these kids are taken care of after the friday night lights!! Do you how many great high school players get used every year and the schools dont care what happens past December there senior year!!! I am not saying your school however it happens everyday!!

What does this have to do with anything? Save your romantic stories for another time. These two guys you give halos to are two of the worst at "stealing" kids from other schools/districts. I find it hilarious that you put these two on a pedestal and ignore their deeds that were the very reason you chimed in on this thread to begin with.

You know what's great about Glenville, Withrow, Massillon, etc.? THEY'RE FREE! At the privates, there are no free rides at the schools I am familiar with. Everyone pays something.

[Obie Wan]

Did you receive grant money to pay tuition? I am talking about using grant money/schlarships to give to student athletes just to play sports while the state of Ohio pays for the computers, books, and some salaries out of the public school funding!!
It's not the "State of Ohio" that's paying for these things - it's the taxpayers of Ohio. The parents of private school kids pay taxes, too. I see nothing wrong with getting a little something back for all the money they shell out. Anyway, this is a far better deal for the state, because they'd be giving a lot more money to a public school to educate the same kid.

[FONT=Arial Black]I believe the parochial / private schools use their football team to recruit more students (and put $$$ in the bank).
I don't think there's any doubt about that. But even so, what's the problem? If Iggy's football team raises the quality of applicants and attracts millions in alumni donations, I submit that it would be foolish of the school not to employ that strategy.

[monte81]

I assume that by ignoring everything I posted earlier (such as Elder kids in should be going to Withrow), you are conceding that you really don't know what you are talking about.



Private school parents pay taxes just like public school parents. Is it really that bad they get to use a small portion of it? As I posted earlier, would you prefer that the private schools disbanded and made schools ever more overcrowded or needed more books and computers? How about the extra salaries to pay the extra teachers? Whoops, forgot about that part didn't you?

50 percent of St. Edward students receive some form of financial aid, that's the only information I am privy to. I have been told that, like Ignatius, the percentage actually decreases on the football team, but have no information to back that up.

Your lack of knowledge how money is used and how much kids actually receive is little to none. The state money is used for transportation, books, etc., not scholarships or grants. Please stop throwing those words around like you have the first clue.



What does this have to do with anything? Save your romantic stories for another time. These two guys you give halos to are two of the worst at "stealing" kids from other schools/districts. I find it hilarious that you put these two on a pedestal and ignore their deeds that were the very reason you chimed in on this thread to begin with.

You know what's great about Glenville, Withrow, Massillon, etc.? THEY'RE FREE! At the privates, there are no free rides at the schools I am familiar with. Everyone pays something.

Call it what you want believe there is alot more "free rides" than you think! As far as the "romantic story"-- i know ! I talk to kids, coached, and played ball on the college level and I know how these kids feel after they leave high school!! You call it stealing when other schools start pursading players to come to their school but legal for privates to hold meetings to gather athletes! Funny! I said that money was used for books, computers, etc,... however in turn they use tuition to recruit and give out grants to athletes!! thats double the benefit if you ask me!! Use the tuition money for your books and transportation-- and not to lure athletes!! Thats what I said!!! Without the state money you would not have that "free money" to throw around!

[JazzyJeff]

Call it what you want believe there is alot more "free rides" than you think! As far as the "romantic story"-- i know ! I talk to kids, coached, and played ball on the college level and I know how these kids feel after they leave high school!! You call it stealing when other schools start pursading players to come to their school but legal for privates to hold meetings to gather athletes! Funny! I said that money was used for books, computers, etc,... however in turn they use tuition to recruit and give out grants to athletes!! thats double the benefit if you ask me!! Use the tuition money for your books and transportation-- and not to lure athletes!! Thats what I said!!! Without the state money you would not have that "free money" to throw around!

Your lack of grasp for such a simple subject is making my head hurt. Can't Smitty chime in and at least make this a fair fight?

[Red50Go]

Hey, I aint Catholic, and my money is going to Jesuits??? Public taxpayer money should not go to a private religious schools - period. Period.

And Monte does make a good point about recruiting. Noone in the their right mind thinks Eds, Iggy, X, etc, "has" to recruit any more than any other public school. Parents can choose a school on their own nowadays. Alot of their money is simply used to recruit, or select then pursuade, students that meet a select criteria, of their own choosing. Those that dont are turned away. Of course some private schools w/ low enrollment are in the same boat as publics and accept almost any paying customer (or that someone else can pay for). Whether that takes them to a small radius or 7 counties. There is something philosphically wrong in drawing comparisions w/ that pool, academically or athletically, vs random geographically assigned school districts. Open enrollment "helps" to level the field somewhat, but the accusations and suspicions of impropriety whenever a public school does anything outside their "district" makes it much more dangerous, and most public schools don't nowhere near (or at all) market themselves like that.

[Smitty]

... Can't Smitty chime in and at least make this a fair fight?

Hey!! I gotta "work" sometime. :cool:

OK, after going back & reading this thread from the beginning:
The private & parochial schools aren't "recruiting" just for the sake of the football team; that much I'm assured of. Do they need students (& MONEY) to stay open? Certainly; look at what happend to Clev. St. Joe's & Cathedral Latin.

They've always been able to use academic excellence as a "selling point" in the grand marketing plan. My base assumption is that athletics became a second selling point.... once the football playoff system started in '72.

[Purple Hayes]

At the end of the day, all financial aid is need based and determined by a third party. Even if a kid is getting half or even a two/thirds (unlikely) off of tuition, that's still over $2,500 to pay. The public school is still free.

Jazzy - You are absolutely right on this one. I worked for a CPA firm in Cleveland that conducted audits for Ignatius and Ed's (we had a large non-profit practice) and we never had any findings for "giving away" grants/financial aid. And PDC is also correct in that Ignatians are very generous giving back to the school...what a war chest!

[MR EMPTY PANTS]

bottom line is" ted ginn, doc gamble and ALL THE BIG CATHOLIC FOOTBALL SCHOOLS "RECRUIT" period!!!!!!! end of story.

[monte81]

Jazzy - You are absolutely right on this one. I worked for a CPA firm in Cleveland that conducted audits for Ignatius and Ed's (we had a large non-profit practice) and we never had any findings for "giving away" grants/financial aid. And PDC is also correct in that Ignatians are very generous giving back to the school...what a war chest!

Of COurse you wouldnt find anything-- the catholics know how to hide the truth! You think hiding a couble kids financial reports would be that hard? Come on you know better than that! The CPA at Enron thought everything was good with the books too!

[TigerCoach]

You guys think LeBron James paid to go to St. V? Hell, his mother couldn't even pay rent for a while. He had to go live with some friends. Same thing happens in Cleveland, mainly on the west side.

[PDC]

Of COurse you wouldnt find anything-- the catholics know how to hide the truth! You think hiding a couble kids financial reports would be that hard? Come on you know better than that! The CPA at Enron thought everything was good with the books too!

You're obviously going to continue to believe what you want even with evidence supporting the contrary.

Btw, does it mean you are cyber-shouting considering you end all of your sentences with an exclamation point?

[tiger4life]

The one thing the conversation is missing here is that the Parochs get to pick and choose their students. That's the big difference! You don't have differintiation, mixed mode (which is now the craze). You can control the herd! Pubx cannot.

[Purple Hayes]

Of COurse you wouldnt find anything-- the catholics know how to hide the truth! You think hiding a couble kids financial reports would be that hard? Come on you know better than that! The CPA at Enron thought everything was good with the books too!

You really have no clue...and as for LeBron, I'm sure he demonstrated Financial Need. Good Lord...you guys need to quit whining.

[monte81]

You're obviously going to continue to believe what you want even with evidence supporting the contrary.

Btw, does it mean you are cyber-shouting considering you end all of your sentences with an exclamation point?

I am just stating my opinion of the way some of the players are required! If we host a informational meeting about anything to do with enrollment of students the OHSAA will be the 1st to attend! No right or wrong! No cyber shouting just they way i post all the time nothing personal PDC-- I just like debating even if i am wrong-- sh@@ sometimes i just do it to get peoples blood flowing!!!

[monte81]

You really have no clue...and as for LeBron, I'm sure he demonstrated Financial Need. Good Lord...you guys need to quit whining.

Whinning about what? Aint no one whinning! I am to big to whin just having some fun! Lebron and others have gotten free rides! LeBron is getting the best of that deal-- St.V's aint worth 250 million!

[JazzyJeff]

They've always been able to use academic excellence as a "selling point" in the grand marketing plan. My base assumption is that athletics became a second selling point.... once the football playoff system started in '72.

The "athletics become a selling point" has nothing to do with the football playoff system or 1972. A lot of Catholic schools, like Elder, Benedictine, Latin, Roger Bacon, etc., were very good in football pre-playoff. Ignatius in the early 1960s was very, very good. Schools like St. Joseph in Cleveland and Moeller in Cincinnati were great at football right out of the gate in the 1960s when they opened.

I think the post-1972 thing resonates with Smitty and others, is because they didn't make a lot of noise in the AP poll championships. The AP was dominated by steel town/blue-collar public schools for many years. When the titles started being determined on the field, that was no longer the case. What I also think is so many people (especially non-Catholics) don't realize is how well run and competitive the CYO system is, and has been since the baby boom when Catholic schools exploded.

[Red50Go]

Please. We played Latin, Elder, Benny then too. I even remember scrimmaging Iggy & killing them. The bigger private schools were good but on a whole different plane now. Especially the Moeller & Iggy dynasties. And lest we forget your 25 consecutive wrestling titles or whatever absurb number your up to.

[JazzyJeff]

Please. We played Latin, Elder, Benny then too. I even remember scrimmaging Iggy & killing them. The bigger private schools were good but on a whole different plane now. Especially the Moeller & Iggy dynasties. And lest we forget your 25 consecutive wrestling titles or whatever absurb number your up to.

You didn't play them every year. Should Benedictine fans judge Massillon on the two years they played this decade?

Why is it so hard to believe that the Catholic schools had elite teams pre-1972?

[Red50Go]

You didn't play them every year. Should Benedictine fans judge Massillon on the two years they played this decade?

Why is it so hard to believe that the Catholic schools had elite teams pre-1972?

I never said that. There were some great teams all the way back to Cathedral Latin. I just dont buy the (circle all that apply):
1. Bias toward Massillon (but not Cleveland, Akron, Warren, Y-Town, Canton).
2. Bias toward public schools.
3. Bias toward public schools in steel towns.
4. Bias toward public schools in steel towns, in NE OH, especially named Massillon.

I never questioned the legitimacy of any state champion, pre or post playoffs, public or private. 2 of the best Massillon teams of all-time didn't even qualify but I am not going to whine about it.

[Fats]

Monte,

How about making some fliers and posting them all around C-bus to come to Massillon for an "informational meeting" about Washington High School. We can discuss the academics, and especially the vocational departments, which not many schools have. From what I read, it's legal to promote the school, just not any particular program or team.

I have been saying this for years. We need to promote our school. We have some great programs besides our football team. Hey, what the heck, if that baritone just happens to be 6-4 280 what is the problem.

[Smitty]

The "athletics become a selling point" has nothing to do with the football playoff system or 1972....

That's YOUR opinion and you're welcome to it. Go back to American History class & don't sleep thru it this time.

... I think the post-1972 thing resonates with Smitty and others, is because they didn't make a lot of noise in the AP poll championships....

It's difficult to get a poll ranking when you don't play anyone outside of your own li'l circle of friends. Moe (for example), for whatever reason, didn't play ANYONE outside of SE Ohio 'til they faced Cardinal Mooney in '73 and Warren Harding in '74. (and Moe got spanked in both of these games!)

... Ignatius in the early 1960s was very, very good....

We'll debate this for years to come. We'll never REALLY know since they (Iggy) didn't play anyone outside of Cuyahoga County.

[longtimefirsttime]

Should Benedictine fans judge Massillon on the two years they played this decade?

I would hope not. Bene had possibly the greatest teams in its history in 2003-04. Massillon had its worst.

[JazzyJeff]

That's YOUR opinion and you're welcome to it. Go back to American History class & don't sleep thru it this time.

Apparently in Massillon, they teach Catholic school football and in history class... how sad. Come on Mr. History Major, show us how you can possibly prove your point.

It's difficult to get a poll ranking when you don't play anyone outside of your own li'l circle of friends. Moe (for example), for whatever reason, didn't play ANYONE outside of SE Ohio 'til they faced Cardinal Mooney in '73 and Warren Harding in '74. (and Moe got spanked in both of these games!)

Very few teams traveled outside their "circle of friends" before the playoff system and more started doing so because the one playoff team per region system forced good teams to play each other (as did the four teams per region system) to maximize Harbin Points.

Oh, and Mr. History Major Moeller didn't open until 1960, meaning they probably didn't have a varsity football team until 1963 or 1964. Therefore, wouldn’t your argument about Moeller seem a little silly?

We'll debate this for years to come. We'll never REALLY know since they (Iggy) didn't play anyone outside of Cuyahoga County.

As I said, there is a reason for that: in the 1950s and 1960s, Ignatius had a full schedule from with the city of Cleveland. Prior to that, Ignatius played teams from Erie, Detroit, Warren, Youngstown, Tiffin, etc. Heck, Latin played a team from Texas in 1927. Just like now, the Catholic schools took on teams from all over to fill out their schedule. In the 1950s and 1960s, there was enough Catholic and Cleveland public schools to fill out the schedule. By the late 1970s, that was no longer the case for a variety of reasons.

In St. Ed’s first decade of football, they did not belong to the Senate League like Ignatius and Benedictine and were forced to travel to fill out the schedule. In the 1950s. Ed’s played the following teams:

Warren St. Mary
Lorain St. Mary
Steubenville Central Catholic (twice)
Canton Central Catholic (three times)
Toledo Central Catholic (five times)
Akron Buchtel
Akron St. Mary (twice)
Akron St. Vincent (five times)
Toledo Devilbiss (twice)
Akron Hower
Dayton Chaminade (twice)
Toledo Waite
Columbus Aquinas (three times)
Niles McKinley
Toledo McComber
Toledo Clay

For chastising those who don't know their history, you need to retake Catholic School Football 101.

[JazzyJeff]

I would hope not. Bene had possibly the greatest teams in its history in 2003-04. Massillon had its worst.

Bennie didn't even have its best teams in the last ten years, the 1996 and 1997 Bengals were better.

[obie7661]

I'm not an expert on the Bennies, but as I recall, they had a pretty darn good team in 1957.

[Obie Wan]

Very few teams traveled outside their "circle of friends" before the playoff system and more started doing so because the one playoff team per region system forced good teams to play each other (as did the four teams per region system) to maximize Harbin Points.
...
In the 1950s. Ed’s played the following teams:

Warren St. Mary
Lorain St. Mary
Steubenville Central Catholic (twice)
Canton Central Catholic (three times)
Toledo Central Catholic (five times)
Akron Buchtel
Akron St. Mary (twice)
Akron St. Vincent (five times)
Toledo Devilbiss (twice)
Akron Hower
Dayton Chaminade (twice)
Toledo Waite
Columbus Aquinas (three times)
Niles McKinley
Toledo McComber
Toledo Clay
At least 24 of those 31 games were against other Catholic schools. Now, what were you saying about traveling outside their "circle of friends"?

[JazzyJeff]

At least 24 of those 31 games were against other Catholic schools. Now, what were you saying about traveling outside their "circle of friends"?

So does "circle of friends" mean other Catholic schools or schools within the county?

[longtimefirsttime]

Bennie didn't even have its best teams in the last ten years, the 1996 and 1997 Bengals were better.

I said "possibly", which means it's up for debate. No one can debate they were good in 1996-97, winning one state title. They won back to back titles in 03-04. They also had Mr. Football and Parade All-American Raymond Williams (we all know his off the field problems) and Jahmal Brown (3rd in school history in scoring). Not bad.

[JazzyJeff]

I said "possibly", which means it's up for debate. No one can debate they were good in 1996-97, winning one state title. They won back to back titles in 03-04. They also had Mr. Football and Parade All-American Raymond Williams (we all know his off the field problems) and Jahmal Brown (3rd in school history in scoring). Not bad.

Did you see the 2003, 2004, 1996 and 1997 Bengals? I did. The 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1963 Benedictine teams were also very good.

I think you're just trying to rationalize a DIII team beating the Tigers, but those Massillon teams were not as bad as you are trying to make them out to be, they had a sick schedule.

[monte81]

Did you see the 2003, 2004, 1996 and 1997 Bengals? I did. The 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1963 Benedictine teams were also very good.

I think you're just trying to rationalize a DIII team beating the Tigers, but those Massillon teams were not as bad as you are trying to make them out to be, they had a sick schedule.


The 2003 and 2004 teams for geared to last years talent getting alot of sophs playing time and we didnt have much offense in either year! players were not healthy and Shepis had numerous players playing out of position just to compete! Benedictine was one of the most talented teams in the state those 2 years! Is Williams enrolled at Toledo?

[Tigress]

The 2003 and 2004 teams for geared to last years talent getting alot of sophs playing time and we didnt have much offense in either year! players were not healthy and Shepis had numerous players playing out of position just to compete! Benedictine was one of the most talented teams in the state those 2 years! Is Williams enrolled at Toledo?


Previously talked about in this MP thread.

http://massillonproud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357&highlight=ray+williams

[monte81]

Previously talked about in this MP thread.

http://massillonproud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357&highlight=ray+williams

I have read the article on the kid It said he was ineligable for the football season!That is because he was not enrolled in enough credit hours to maintain eligability-- he didnt even attend the whole year in 05-06 school year! I am asking if he is still enrolled in classes! If he remains in school and maintains the grades he will be able to play next year! So i was wondering if he quit, remained in classes, or probation violation!

[longtimefirsttime]

Did you see the 2003, 2004, 1996 and 1997 Bengals? I did. The 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1963 Benedictine teams were also very good.

I think you're just trying to rationalize a DIII team beating the Tigers, but those Massillon teams were not as bad as you are trying to make them out to be, they had a sick schedule.

I saw them in 1996 when they played Desales in the State Championship. They were a good football team. I think the 2003 team was better (the one that beat Lake Catholic, Steubenville in the playoffs and narrowly lost to your school). As far as the teams from the 50's and 60's, I wasn't around then. I do know the Tigers beat them in 1956 and beat them handily in 1963. The Tigers narrowly lost in 1957 as a huge flu epidemic was sweeping through the school (the game the next week was cancelled).
I do know they played on a regular basis, with the Tigers having a 22-2-1 advantage. Then the series was discontinued for 24 years (they just happened to have a loaded team). They won two and the teams haven't played since. I know they're a combined 5-11 in 2005 and 2006 (so far). I wouldn't go as far as calling them "Cincinnati Princeton North" but I'm sure it's more than coincidence.

[JazzyJeff]

I do know they played on a regular basis, with the Tigers having a 22-2-1 advantage. Then the series was discontinued for 24 years (they just happened to have a loaded team). They won two and the teams haven't played since. I know they're a combined 5-11 in 2005 and 2006 (so far). I wouldn't go as far as calling them "Cincinnati Princeton North" but I'm sure it's more than coincidence.

You probably won't believe me, but Massillon is the one that decided to end the Benedictine (and St. Edward) series. It's not like Bennie took a break from tough games the last two years.

[TigerCoach]

Benedictine's fall from the elite (same as Villa Angela St. Joe's) just so happens to correlate with the rise of St. Iggy and St. Ed's programs. What do the police detectives always say? "Follow the money."

[JazzyJeff]

Benedictine's fall from the elite (same as Villa Angela St. Joe's) just so happens to correlate with the rise of St. Iggy and St. Ed's programs. What do the police detectives always say? "Follow the money."

Why do people pretend to know everything about Catholic schools? You're not even close.

While Benedictine's enrollment has gone up and down with the Catholic baby boom and white flight to the suburbs, Benedictine has always been on the small side in comparison. In addition, enrollment has been relatively flat since the 1970s.

VASJ started its decline in the 1970s and declined to a number of reasons that had nothing to do with Ed's or Ignatius. St. Joseph was considered a neighborhood school for the northeast side of the city. That neighborhood is no longer made up of first and second generation eastern European Catholic families, which moved into Lake County. This shift led to building Lake Catholic High School. Eventually, in 1989, St. Joseph became VASJ, merging with the all-girls Villa Angela school next door.

St. Edward (1949) and St. Joseph (1950) were the new kids on the block compared to Ignatius (1888), Latin (1916) and Benedictine (1927). St. Joe's was a bigger rival for St. Ed's than Ignatius for many years, as Ignatius had Latin/Benedictine to tangle with.

If anything, the rise of Ignatius football hurt St. Edward the most as kids from the far western suburbs started attending Ignatius.

[longtimefirsttime]

You probably won't believe me, but Massillon is the one that decided to end the Benedictine (and St. Edward) series. It's not like Bennie took a break from tough games the last two years.

I was told Benedictine opted not to renew but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. I know Massillon decided not to re-sign on the St. Ed series. I agree with this decision.

[ChronicTiger]

:zzz:

[JazzyJeff]

I was told Benedictine opted not to renew but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. I know Massillon decided not to re-sign on the St. Ed series. I agree with this decision.

Is there a place I can see future Massillon schedules?

[longtimefirsttime]

Here is next season. Reportedly week four is close to being filled.

Fri. Aug. 24 Middletown H
Sat. Sept. 1 Herbstreit Classic A
Fri. Sept. 7 Parma Normandy A
Fri. Sept. 15 (Open)
Fri. Sept. 21 Mentor H
Sat. Sept. 29 Ignatius A
Fri. Oct. 5 Akron Buchtel H 7:30 pm
Fri. Oct. 12 Warren Harding H 7:30 pm
Sat. Oct. 20 Cincinnati Western Hills H 7:30 pm
Sat. Oct. 27 McKinley A 2:00 pm

[MR EMPTY PANTS]

Here is next season. Reportedly week four is close to being filled.

Fri. Aug. 24 Middletown H
Sat. Sept. 1 Herbstreit Classic A
Fri. Sept. 7 Parma Normandy A
Fri. Sept. 15 (Open)
Fri. Sept. 21 Mentor H
Sat. Sept. 29 Ignatius A
Fri. Oct. 5 Akron Buchtel H 7:30 pm
Fri. Oct. 12 Warren Harding H 7:30 pm
Sat. Oct. 20 Cincinnati Western Hills H 7:30 pm
Sat. Oct. 27 McKinley A 2:00 pm

fri, sept,15 i`m hoping for either upper arlington or dublin coffman. upper a mainly because we used to play them and they were always tough. coffman just to beat the hell out of them and shut up the c-bus people about moving the state finals out of stark.

[JazzyJeff]

Here is next season. Reportedly week four is close to being filled.

Fri. Aug. 24 Middletown H
Sat. Sept. 1 Herbstreit Classic A
Fri. Sept. 7 Parma Normandy A
Fri. Sept. 15 (Open)
Fri. Sept. 21 Mentor H
Sat. Sept. 29 Ignatius A
Fri. Oct. 5 Akron Buchtel H 7:30 pm
Fri. Oct. 12 Warren Harding H 7:30 pm
Sat. Oct. 20 Cincinnati Western Hills H 7:30 pm
Sat. Oct. 27 McKinley A 2:00 pm

Two games at Byers Field? Yikes...

[Al.]

Two games at Byers Field? Yikes...

Certainly better than having open dates, traveling to Lakewood or out-of-state to fill a schedule.

[JazzyJeff]

Certainly better than having open dates, traveling to Lakewood or out-of-state to fill a schedule.

If you say so... I hate Byers field.

[BigTime]

If you say so... I hate Byers field.

JJ you still lurking here? At least from a visitors fans perspective, Byers Filed leaves A LOT to be desired.

[JazzyJeff]

JJ you still lurking here? At least from a visitors fans perspective, Byers Filed leaves A LOT to be desired.

While the surface is supposedly better than the turf at Lakewood and PBTS, its not by much. Teams other than Ignatius seem to slip and slide all over the place. Plus the place just seems dark and dingy, not sure why. Perhaps its Parma?

[TigerCoach]

JazzyJeff,

When I was in high school, we used to scrimmage St. Ed's at Baldwin Wallace Stadium. Does anyone still play there besides BW? I thought that was a nice place for a high school event.

[JazzyJeff]

JazzyJeff,

When I was in high school, we used to scrimmage St. Ed's at Baldwin Wallace Stadium. Does anyone still play there besides BW? I thought that was a nice place for a high school event.

The two Berea school district high schools use Finnie; Midpark High (Brook Park and Middleburgh Heights kids) and Berea High (Berea kids).

When St. Edward stopped having home games behind the school, the Eagles used Finnie for home games for most of the 1980s. In 1989 or 1990, Lakewood Stadium put in the old sand turf, and because the stadium is less than a half mile from Ed's campus, Ed's moved their games to Lakewood. Still when there was a conflict with Lakewood Stadium in the 1990s (band competitions, soccer games, etc.), the Eagles played at Finnie.

I prefer Finnie and Lakewood to Byers, but Byers is larger capacity-wise.

[steeltiger]

Do you mean Toledo and Detroit?:laughing:

[PDC]

I hate Byers Field too. Ridge Road is a nightmare no matter what day or time it is.

I prefer Lakewood because of the atmosphere and because it's not Parma.

[longtimefirsttime]

I've heard many people mention Parma through the years and not one of them had a positive thing to say. My experience there is limited to the drive to the stadium.

[PDC]

I've heard many people mention Parma through the years and not one of them had a positive thing to say. My experience there is limited to the drive to the stadium.

I would keep it that way if I were you.

Ignatius needs to move back to Lakewood stadium, but from what I heard the deal wasn't all that good.