If the election would be held tomorrow

[bs.gunn]

With the two conventions over and no debates held yet between the two parties. I'm curious what the candidate garners the most support from MP posters.

If the voting was tomorrow who would you vote for?

[TigerBuckeye313]

John McCain.

[TigerVic]

Alan Keyes

http://www.americasrevival.com/

[TigerCoach]

I wish Cindy McCain were running, she's got more going on than any of them.

[Kamd50]

If the election were to be held tomorrow, I don't think that I would even waste my gas going to the polls.

[LEOGER]

I don't think that going to the polls is ever a waste of time. This right was paid for dearly by many. Myself I feel it is my obligation.

[werperry]

If the election were to be held tomorrow, I don't think that I would even waste my gas going to the polls.

I understand the disgust. But, you need to cast a vote. Even if it's for a third party or a write in. Too many people have lost their life defending the right for you to voice your opinion/vote.

:gogogo:

[gotigers3796]

I understand the disgust. But, you need to cast a vote. Even if it's for a third party or a write in. Too many people have lost their life defending the right for you to voice your opinion/vote.

:gogogo:

so... you think Bush won two elections because people voted for him? :wall:

[Kamd50]

I have the utmost respect, gratitude, and love for our military; past and present.

However, I look at things in a broader sense. I feel that all who have and are serving this United States, defend and preserve our status as a free Nation. And to me, that includes the freedom of choice; including the right to choose to follow one's conscience as to whether they feel any one candidate is worthy of their vote or not.

[MUCSteelers5xSuperChamp]

John "Rising To Fame" McCain.

[CarlE]

John "Rising To Fame" McCain.


DANG IT. He's doomed.

Oh by the way. Not voting in America nauseates me.

[Kamd50]

DANG IT. He's doomed.

Oh by the way. Not voting in America nauseates me.

So, you think that by casting a useless vote for a third party that has no chance in hell of getting elected is better than following your conscience and not just voting for the lesser of two evils, as some like to put it. I don't.

And by the way, I didn't say that I wasn't going to vote in this election. The question was hypothetical ;"if the election was held tomorrow..."

Neither candidate has shown me anything to get excited about as of yet to make me want to vote for either of them. With any luck, and God's grace, one of them will by Novemeber.

[CarlE]

So, you think that by casting a useless vote for a third party that has no chance in hell of getting elected is better than following your conscience and not just voting for the lesser of two evils, as some like to put it. I don't.

And by the way, I didn't say that I wasn't going to vote in this election. The question was hypothetical ;"if the election was held tomorrow..."

Neither candidate has shown me anything to get excited about as of yet to make me want to vote for either of them. With any luck, and God's grace, one of them will by Novemeber.

First, I wasn't specifying you. Lighten up.

Second to answer your first question YES. THE VOTE IS HEARD AND THE VOTE IS COUNTED. Who knows what 3rd party votes will do down the line to propogate a third party. Make sense???

Once again, I wasn't specifying you. Lighten up again.

Both candidates SUCK by the way. And if neither one of them excites you by November, vote for a 3rd party candidate per my reason above. Now, take a deep breath, go get some more coffee, and come back and moderate!!! LOL.

[Kamd50]

First, I wasn't specifying you. Lighten up.

Second to answer your first question YES. THE VOTE IS HEARD AND THE VOTE IS COUNTED. Who knows what 3rd party votes will do down the line to propogate a third party. Make sense???

Once again, I wasn't specifying you. Lighten up again.

Both candidates SUCK by the way. And if neither one of them excites you by November, vote for a 3rd party candidate per my reason above. Now, take a deep breath, go get some more coffee, and come back and moderate!!! LOL.

But the Bucks are on!!!

[CarlE]

But the Bucks are on!!!

My bad, dear. Continue on!!! LOL

[werperry]

But the Bucks are on!!!

EXCELLENT.. :lol:

[Fats]

Some voters think we need another 4 years of Republican rule so they can CLEAN up the Mess they made the last 8 years.



The Republicans controlled the White House, and both houses of congress and we are seeing what happens when they lead. 4 more years I say NO MORE YEARS!!!

[CarlE]

Some voters think we need another 4 years of Republican rule so they can CLEAN up the Mess they made the last 8 years.



The Republicans controlled the White House, and both houses of congress and we are seeing what happens when they lead. 4 more years I say NO MORE YEARS!!!

Bush is not a Republican. I don't know how many more times I have to say this.

[shortbev]

casting one's vote for the presidency is the highest responsibility and right of every adult american...while it may seem not worthwhile...you are still doing your part of the process...even if you vote for mickey mouse...

i can't help but wonder if many of us had gotten more involved in the process earlier on, if we wouldn't have a better choice...since so many seem to be unhappy with the ones we have...if you don't become part of the process...from the beginning even...working to get the best people as candidates...then, one loses the right to complain about the leader they get...we get what we earn...sometimes...

and yet,we can't see into the future...and while we complain about whomever...he may end up being better than we think...remember...not many people really expected one abraham lincoln to go down in history as one of our most beloved and best presidents...(and yes, i know none of these guys today are an Abraham Lincoln)...even lincoln himself didn't really feel qualified to be president...senator maybe...but, not president...many were so ticked off, they seceded from the united states thus starting the Civil War. actually, one of the few people that might have believed that he would become president one day was his wife, mary...at one point in time, she was dating both abe and stephan douglas (lincoln / douglas debates...look it up if you don't know)...she turned douglas down when he proposed to her...because she said she was going to marry a man who would become our president...her choice was Abraham...

will be interesting to see what truly lies ahead for the presidency and the american people...

[howard roark]

Bob Barr

http://www.bobbarr2008.com/

or

Ron Paul

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

I urge you to read his book.

Neither Party is mine - not the jackass or the elephant

-Chuck D "By The Time I Get To Arizona"

[CATS44]

I disagree with the assertion that this election offers us no decent candidates. In fact, IMO this is one of the few times in decades that the election offers us two fine choices. In contrast, we often get no good option, and end up voting for the lesser of two evils.

The reason we get sick and tired of our candidates is that we get sick and tired of the negative campaigning. But the reason we get nothing but negative campaigning is that it has been proven over and over again that we respond to negative campaigning in a positive way. In other words, the voters who go into an election with an open mind end up voting for the candidate who has the most effective negative television ads. Thats our fault.

A national campaign that refused to run negative ads could not win an election in todays political world. The candidate in a national election would be an idiot not to approve of negative campaigning, because his time and effort would be a total waste of time. Those of us (nearly all) should look in the mirror to see who is to blame for negative campaigning.

Notice the difference in every national campaign between the soaring rhetoric and presentation of ideas by the various candidates in Iowa to the negative campaigning once the campaigns get down to brass tacks.

The same applies to the school funding problem in Ohio. Nobody is to blame but the electorate. We do a lot of hooting and hollering about fixing the problem, but we refuse to do so. It is a problem easily solved. Simply vote against any and every incumbent candidate for the Ohio House and Senate....no matter what their party affiliation. If all of Ohio did that, the message would be heard loud and clear. No school funding fix equals no job in two years. In our area, we have voted for the same two guys for years and years. They merely switch places when their term limits end. They talk a lot about initiatives they have proposed that go nowhere, and blame somebody else...but the problem stays the same.

Again, we are the problem, because we remain political sheep.

I also feel that it is a sacred duty to vote. Sacred is the right word, because I firmly believe that this nation was formed by folks who had had a great inspiration that came from a higher source, which I call God. It has been defended by men and women who were willing to fight, and if necessary die. In most cases this nation did not go to war for territory or bounty. It went to war to defend an idea. That idea only lives if we do our own sacred duties, one of which is to vote.

The question is raised as to what to do if we dont like any candidate on the ballot. The answer to me is plain. A sacred duty implies that you do it under any circumstances. Write in the name of the person who you feel would make the best elected official. Whether your vote makes a difference now is not the question. A sacred duty is a duty to God. It is between you and God. Your vote is a prayer....and prayers do make a difference.

William Jennings Bryan ran for President FOUR times. It was unlikley that he could be elected, but folks kept choosing him as their candidate. Did those followers of Bryan lose? Not in the end. The Populist movement that Bryan espoused (although he was a Democrat, not a Populist) eventually won on one point, Trust Busting, and did so under the Presidency of one of his opponents, then Vice President Teddy Roosevelt. And today, of course, we are under the Silver Standard.

20 million voters went to the polls to vote for their candidate in 1964, even though he had absolutely no chance of winning. But those 20 million losers who voted for Barry Goldwater established the Conservative movement that eventually led to Ronald Reagan. (Not to be confused with the Conservatives of today)

But what if you vote for some fringe 'kook'? Those votes get heard, too...and have a power of their own. Ralph Nader, who personally I cant stand, runs every time. What do the few votes he recieves do? Well, the car you drive is safer than the car you drove twenty years ago...and the lakes, rivers, and air are cleaner. All because the candidiates who do get elected have to listen to those Nader voters.

So, get out and vote. Please. Your vote, even if it disagrees with mine, makes our country stronger.

BTW, I have a strong belief that Barack Obama will make a fine President, and his election could be an epochal moment in our nations history....not in terms of race as much as in terms of direction. Much like the Roosevelts and Reagan.

[IRISH]

John McCain
Here is my political blog you guys can follow! (http://mvred.com)

[thebili]

....
But what if you vote for some fringe 'kook'? Those votes get heard, too...and have a power of their own. Ralph Nader, who personally I cant stand, runs every time. What do the few votes he recieves do? Well, the car you drive is safer than the car you drove twenty years ago...and the lakes, rivers, and air are cleaner. All because the candidiates who do get elected have to listen to those Nader voters.

So, get out and vote. Please. Your vote, even if it disagrees with mine, makes our country stronger......

Wow thanks! This is a really good point. Often during an election I happen to like an independent or 3rd party candidate, but my father always advised me not to "waste my vote", but now I understand that it is NOT wasted. It sends a message that my concerns as an American citizen may be different from the mainstream and even though my vote may not be for a Democrat or Republican, it definitely has influence in politics.

So thank you for making this point, and giving me an argument for those who tell me I am “wasting my vote” when I choose independent or 3rd party.
:thumbsup:

[OTC TIGER]

Some voters think we need another 4 years of Republican rule so they can CLEAN up the Mess they made the last 8 years.



The Republicans controlled the White House, and both houses of congress and we are seeing what happens when they lead. 4 more years I say NO MORE YEARS!!!

The Dems took Congress in 2006 and their approval rating is worse than the Presidents

[TigerLily]

There are really two basic issues for me that play into my decision.

First -- National security. Without that…if the nation’s not secure and safe…you might as well forget discussing social and economic issues.

For me…that has to be John McCain. He has more experience and would have a better, stronger hand on security. He “gets” it.

Second -- The candidate’s stance on abortion. That speaks volumes about a candidate’s character. If you value life inside the womb (and I do mean from conception)…you will value it outside too.

For me…that has to be John McCain (and Sarah)

So…I guess you know how I voted in this little poll.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_19_34.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_19_35.gif

[CATS44]

There is a lot more that goes into national security than merely the military aspects. But looking at the military first, the last eight years have not been what could be characterized as a rousing success militarily.

Diplomacy is another very important aspect, and the GOP dumped the concept of bipartisan foreign policy, of which George Bush I was a long time integral part. Our diplomatic forays have been a disaster under GWB, and have for the most part been backed by McCain.

Economic policy, both national and international, is also an important part of national security. It is difficult for even the most rabid followers of GWB to assert that his monetary policies have led to a stronger America. McCain himself admits that he has little understanding of economics, and his VP candidate has none.

And then there is education, the most important of all. Historically, the most progressive of the major parties has done the most for educational funding, esp in the area of higher education and advanced research. But, of course, it is the present GOP which frowns the darkest upon advanced research, unless it is geared to the military.

And then there is Joe Biden, who has served several terms as the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Foreign affairs deal directly with national security.

[Obie Wan]

And then there is education, the most important of all. Historically, the most progressive of the major parties has done the most for educational funding, esp in the area of higher education and advanced research.
Which, of course, assumes an inviolate correlation between funding and results. Sadly, spending more to educate a student does not guarantee a better education for that student.

More to the point, it might be noted that one of the main reasons that the Democrats are constantly agitating for money for education is the way the Democratic Party and the NEA are inexorably intertwined. Like most unions, the NEA's main purpose is better pay and benefits for their members and an expansion of their membership. The political contributions taken from the dues paid by the membership are almost exclusively sent to the Democratic Party. Scratch my back...

And then there is Joe Biden, who has served several terms as the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee.
Yes, Biden has many years of experience in foreign affairs. Unfortunately, most of that experience is with being wrong about foreign affairs.

[bs.gunn]

Which, of course, assumes an inviolate correlation between funding and results. Sadly, spending more to educate a student does not guarantee a better education for that student.

More to the point, it might be noted that one of the main reasons that the Democrats are constantly agitating for money for education is the way the Democratic Party and the NEA are inexorably intertwined. Like most unions, the NEA's main purpose is better pay and benefits for their members and an expansion of their membership. The political contributions taken from the dues paid by the membership are almost exclusively sent to the Democratic Party. Scratch my back...


Yes, Biden has many years of experience in foreign affairs. Unfortunately, most of that experience is with being wrong about foreign affairs.

I got Union BADDD Teachers BADDD

Yeah Biden has experience, but not the right kind of experience!

Mccon/Failin '08!

[CarlE]

There is a lot more that goes into national security than merely the military aspects. But looking at the military first, the last eight years have not been what could be characterized as a rousing success militarily.

Diplomacy is another very important aspect, and the GOP dumped the concept of bipartisan foreign policy, of which George Bush I was a long time integral part. Our diplomatic forays have been a disaster under GWB, and have for the most part been backed by McCain.

Economic policy, both national and international, is also an important part of national security. It is difficult for even the most rabid followers of GWB to assert that his monetary policies have led to a stronger America. McCain himself admits that he has little understanding of economics, and his VP candidate has none.

And then there is education, the most important of all. Historically, the most progressive of the major parties has done the most for educational funding, esp in the area of higher education and advanced research. But, of course, it is the present GOP which frowns the darkest upon advanced research, unless it is geared to the military.

And then there is Joe Biden, who has served several terms as the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Foreign affairs deal directly with national security.


Diplomacy in foreign intelligence SUCKS. Covert intelligence operations is #1. Let me know how your boy Slick Willy did in that aspect, OK??? Or, I can give you a direct quote from someone that was in foreign intelligence at the time. Let me know.

[savage4president]

Which, of course, assumes an inviolate correlation between funding and results. Sadly, spending more to educate a student does not guarantee a better education for that student.



Fewer true words have ever been spoken. The National Average per pupil spending at public schools was around 8K per pupil in 2003(I can't remember the exact numbers) but the graduation rate was around 82%. Private school spending per pupil was around 2.5K with a graduation rate of 98%. If money was the issue should this not be reversed? Throwing money at a problem rarely solves any problems...it generally creates more, which is exactly what has happened in education.

My opinion is that the grad rate at private schools is higher for one simple reason...PARENTS!

[bs.gunn]

Fewer true words have ever been spoken. The National Average per pupil spending at public schools was around 8K per pupil in 2003(I can't remember the exact numbers) but the graduation rate was around 82%. Private school spending per pupil was around 2.5K with a graduation rate of 98%. If money was the issue should this not be reversed? Throwing money at a problem rarely solves any problems...it generally creates more, which is exactly what has happened in education.

My opinion is that the grad rate at private schools is higher for one simple reason...PARENTS!

My opinion is you should provide links to support your numbers. Like perhaps what you just posted includes public money spent, forgoing that most private schools require the students family to pay the large amount of the private education.

Also is it just me or does anyone else think Republicans hate education because keeping people stupid is the only way they keep seats in power

[savage4president]

My opinion is you should provide links to support your numbers. Like perhaps what you just posted includes public money spent, forgoing that most private schools require the students family to pay the large amount of the private education.



My opinion is feel free to find the statistics yourself. I know what I read and even said that I can't remember the exact details. You can continue to believe that throwing OTHER peoples money to problems will solve everything, I'm not buying it. You can probably dig around the ODE website, i'm sure it is there somewhere. I've spent too much time on that site and am not going to waste anymore of it.

[Indiana95]

Also is it just me or does anyone else think Republicans hate education because keeping people stupid is the only way they keep seats in power

I don't think that is the GOP MO per se, but history proves that a populus lacking in education and logic, and full of superstition and fundamentalism are easly deceived and taken advantage of by their leaders. The dumber the people are, the easier they are to manipulate.

[bs.gunn]

I don't think that is the GOP MO per se, but history proves that a populus lacking in education and logic, and full of superstition and fundamentalism are easly deceived and taken advantage of by their leaders. The dumber the people are, the easier they are to manipulate.

Yes dumb people are easily manipulated, throw religion in there with faith and believing the good word over scientific fact and you have a recipe for control. Which party actively does that?

[CarlE]

My opinion is you should provide links to support your numbers. Like perhaps what you just posted includes public money spent, forgoing that most private schools require the students family to pay the large amount of the private education.

Also is it just me or does anyone else think Republicans hate education because keeping people stupid is the only way they keep seats in power

Hello, to education.

1. foregoing
2. students'

As far as education, I believe it's the Democrats that adhere to the belief that people are stupid and they need the Libs to think for them AND support them.

Class dismissed. Aren't you getting tired of this, son???

[savage4president]

I don't think that is the GOP MO per se, but history proves that a populus lacking in education and logic, and full of superstition and fundamentalism are easly deceived and taken advantage of by their leaders. The dumber the people are, the easier they are to manipulate.

I did not see anybody arguing this. I'm not going to because you are 100% correct. The argument is does spending money improve education? The answer is NO it does not.

[CarlE]

I did not see anybody arguing this. I'm not going to because you are 100% correct. The argument is does spending money improve education? The answer is NO it does not.

Obviously not. Read bsgunn's intelligent posts!!! LOL. God, we can only HOPE he's not in an occupation that is leading people.

[bs.gunn]

Obviously not. Read bsgunn's intelligent posts!!! LOL. God, we can only HOPE he's not in an occupation that is leading people.

uh oh the internet grammar nazi's are coming to get me

[bs.gunn]

Hello, to education.

1. foregoing
2. students'

As far as education, I believe it's the Democrats that adhere to the belief that people are stupid and they need the Libs to think for them AND support them.

Class dismissed. Aren't you getting tired of this, son???

Well I do believe most people are uneducated, however that doesn't mean that I believe Libs should think for them. I think we need better education <period>. But it's the republicans that block that sort of thing, not demos

[DE#53]

My opinion is you should provide links to support your numbers. Like perhaps what you just posted includes public money spent, forgoing that most private schools require the students family to pay the large amount of the private education.

Also is it just me or does anyone else think Republicans hate education because keeping people stupid is the only way they keep seats in power

Your kidding right? Keeping people stupid is what the Dems rely on. "Your a victim" or "somebody else is to blame for your misfortune". Let US take more money from the people who have worked hard to succeed and give it to you! No Child Left Behind. (A failure). Given to us by Ted Kennedy.

Instead of raising taxes on the wealthy and giving it to the illegals and the "less fortunate" how about using the money to teach these people a job skill so they can make a living for themselves and stop being a burden on the rest of us who go to work so we can put food on our tables! I would love to hear a Democrat come out and say it's time for ALL americans to pull their own weight and be accountable for themselves and stop with all the excuses! Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country! Wasn't that a motto from a Democrat about 45 years ago?

[DE#53]

Yes dumb people are easily manipulated, throw religion in there with faith and believing the good word over scientific fact and you have a recipe for control. Which party actively does that?

Which part? One Nation under God? You need to stop and think about this. Our country has prospered so well all these years because of him. And to suggest that people of faith in God are stupid is the same as calling God stupid.

Didn't the Nazi's ignore the "good word" and use Scientific "fact" as a basis to manipulate ignorant people and get them to conform to their twisted views?

[bs.gunn]

Your kidding right? Keeping people stupid is what the Dems rely on. "Your a victim" or "somebody else is to blame for your misfortune". Let US take more money from the people who have worked hard to succeed and give it to you! No Child Left Behind. (A failure). Given to us by Ted Kennedy.

Instead of raising taxes on the wealthy and giving it to the illegals and the "less fortunate" how about using the money to teach these people a job skill so they can make a living for themselves and stop being a burden on the rest of us who go to work so we can put food on our tables! I would love to hear a Democrat come out and say it's time for ALL americans to pull their own weight and be accountable for themselves and stop with all the excuses! Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country! Wasn't that a motto from a Democrat about 45 years ago?

Raising the taxes on the top 5% of the earners in America while lowering the taxes for 95% of America. I think that's exactly what 95% of us want. If you're in that 5% I don't feel bad for you in the least. Give me your money so I can help out the folks that need it and thanks for it :-).

Last time I checked teaching was mostly educational. So sounds like you're on my team. Welcome aboard

Republicans home of the rich bastards and the hypocritical righteous. I want to raise up my fellow human being but please don't expect me to actually do anything to help!

[bs.gunn]

Which part? One Nation under God? You need to stop and think about this. Our country has prospered so well all these years because of him. And to suggest that people of faith in God are stupid is the same as calling God stupid.

Didn't the Nazi's ignore the "good word" and use Scientific "fact" as a basis to manipulate ignorant people and get them to conform to their twisted views?

Someone just left unreasonableville and is heading to crazytown

[CarlE]

Raising the taxes on the top 5% of the earners in America while lowering the taxes for 95% of America. I think that's exactly what 95% of us want. If you're in that 5% I don't feel bad for you in the least. Give me your money so I can help out the folks that need it and thanks for it :-).

Last time I checked teaching was mostly educational. So sounds like you're on my team. Welcome aboard

Republicans home of the rich bastards and the hypocritical righteous. I want to raise up my fellow human being but please don't expect me to actually do anything to help!

No, I WON'T give you my money. I'll help out the folks that need it on my own, thank you. If I gave it to people like you it would be WASTED and NEVER get to the folks that actually need it. Rich bastards? No. Hard working entrepeneurs and movers-n-shakers that bust ass every day? Yep.

[man2man]

One party talks change, but at the end of the day it's just talk. Hilary earned the right to be VP, but Obama chose the old white guy with 35 years inside the beltway. McCain chooses a woman from outside the good-old-boy system. Progressive, future-minded, fresh - McCain made a politically smart choice that has electrified the Repubs and is gaining him votes (and cash donations) from all over the country.

[Indiana95]

[QUOTE=man2man;119890] Progressive, future-minded QUOTE]

You've got to be kidding me. She's as conservative and backwards thinking as they get...

[OTC TIGER]

[QUOTE=bs.gunn;119871]Raising the taxes on the top 5% of the earners in America while lowering the taxes for 95% of America. I think that's exactly what 95% of us want. If you're in that 5% I don't feel bad for you in the least. Give me your money so I can help out the folks that need it and thanks for it :-).


What an insane thought process...Once again you continue to cuddle up to the class warfare party...The top 5% already pay over 54% of the taxes..the top 10% pay two thirds of the taxes...lowering the taxes for 95% of Americans is flat out bullsh!t..it's called taking from top 5% and sending everybody else a check...the great Orator will tell followers like you that it's "tax cut" :wall:.

As far as give me your money so you can "help the folks that need it"... I would be willing to bet that if CarlE or myself was given 100K we could turn it into 200k in 7 yrs and you would be broke.

[Red50Go]

The gap has widened. Thats a fact. And the results speak for themselves. Here is what is insane - Millionaires got richer, middle class got poorer. The poorer the middle class gets, the less taxes they will pay. The richer the rich get, the more taxes they will pay. Thats unfair!!! So lets widen the gap even more so fewer people have more control, because they are smarter and will take better care of us.

What is insane is 99% of you jokers wont sniff a million dollars if you live forever, but you are poo pooing a BIGGER tax break to your own back pocket because your party leaders compel you to.

You are against welfare for the poor, but cerainly not the rich. We hand out $400 million bonuses to executives who cut jobs and/or bilk investors, like its candy. And we bail out large corporations because they are "too big to fail" - with your money. Why not be against that?

[Obie Wan]

The gap has widened. Thats a fact.

Of course it has -- but so what? There is a lower bound, but no upper bound.

No income is $0, whether the largest income is $1 million, $10 million, or $100 million. That gap is irrelevant to the economic conditions at the low end of the scale.

Let's suppose I made $40,000 last year and you made $100,000. This year, I make $50,000 and you make $125,000. Am I worse off because the gap is larger?

[Red50Go]

Good point if it were true. But the facts are if you made $40000 last year, or $125000, you make less than that today. But if you are in the top 1%, you make more today. Clear enough?

[OTC TIGER]

Good point if it were true. But the facts are if you made $40000 last year, or $125000, you make less than that today. But if you are in the top 1%, you make more today. Clear enough?

Clear as mud...You're saying folks who made 40k or 125k are all making less today..:huh:

[Red50Go]

Clear as mud...You're saying folks who made 40k or 125k are all making less today..:huh:

Uhhh, yeah? Not every freaking one of them but you know about averages dont you? The average income for most Americans is down. I know thats hard to believe w/ all the plant closings and home foreclosures. In contrast, the top 1% of Americans received their largest share of national income since 1928. I am running out of ways to make it any clearer guys.

[TigerCoach]

I'm sure glad some of you guys aren't economists or in charge of a large budget for some company! :laughing:

Saying the average income for people is down from last year is outright wrong. People didn't get notification from their bosses that their salary or wages are being cut by 2% or anything. People make the same amount of money for the most part.

Now, if you want to say the average amount of discretionary income and purchasing power compared to the rise in inflation over the past year, you would be making a much more responsible statement.

[TigerCoach]

In contrast, the top 1% of Americans received their largest share of national income since 1928. I am running out of ways to make it any clearer guys.


The top 1% of Americans also pay 40% of the total taxes that this country takes in. Does that sound fair?

Or how about this? The bottom 50% of all wage earners only pay 3% of all the total tax revenue in the U.S. Does that sound fair?

For you people who like facts, ok, here are the facts in this report dated 8/14/08..........http://www.atr.org/content/pdf/2008/August/081408ot-federalincometaxandwhattheypay.pdf


Carl & I don't think so, by the way. That's why he is moving to the Bahamas.

[OTC TIGER]

Uhhh, yeah? Not every freaking one of them but you know about averages dont you? The average income for most Americans is down. I know thats hard to believe w/ all the plant closings and home foreclosures. In contrast, the top 1% of Americans received their largest share of national income since 1928. I am running out of ways to make it any clearer guys.

I'm glad I'm not running out of ways to make it "clearer"...I know about averages...Average hourly earnings in August 07 was 17.42...Average hourly earnings in August 08 was 18.05

[Red50Go]

I'm sure glad some of you guys aren't economists or in charge of a large budget for some company! :laughing:

Saying the average income for people is down from last year is outright wrong. People didn't get notification from their bosses that their salary or wages are being cut by 2% or anything. People make the same amount of money for the most part.

Now, if you want to say the average amount of discretionary income and purchasing power compared to the rise in inflation over the past year, you would be making a much more responsible statement.

Gimminee Christmas - you mean $40,000/yr in 1980 is not the same as $40,000 today? OF COURSE it factors inflation.

Btw, our union took a paycut to save the plant. Salaries were froze for 2 years.

[TigerCoach]

Good point if it were true. But the facts are if you made $40000 last year, or $125000, you make less than that today. But if you are in the top 1%, you make more today. Clear enough?

You said $40,000 LAST YEAR :lol: , not in 1980.

[OTC TIGER]

Btw, our union took a paycut to save the plant. Salaries were froze for 2 years.

If the US didn't have the 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the Industrialized world maybe you wouldn't have had to take that cut...Obama proposes more taxes for Corporations whereas McCain proposes lower taxes for Corps.

[Red50Go]

Ok ok. Under no circumstance should a Democrat be Pres, lol.

Frankly, a Republican deserves the next term because he'll be inheriting the biggest fing mess I have ever seen this country in. Dems might be better to wait another 4. I just hope the old man doesn't go nutty.

Btw, I dont know if you can tell but I am a Ron Paul guy so I am pissed at just about everything these days. Maybe if I switch to decaf.

Hey - GO TIGERS!!!

[howard roark]

Give me your money so I can help out the folks that need it and thanks for it :-).


Ya know, I think I've read that type of statement before....where was that ....hmmm....

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. Karl Marx

Oh yeah. Marxism. Pretty popular with those who are victim to it.....

If you are a teacher I sure hope you arent teaching my son these types of things. He wont sit quietly when this type of pablum is getting spewed in his 7th grade classes.

And I'll gladly back him up .

[Red50Go]

Ya know, I think I've read that type of statement before....where was that ....hmmm....

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. Karl Marx

Oh yeah. Marxism. Pretty popular with those who are victim to it.....

If you are a teacher I sure hope you arent teaching my son these types of things. He wont sit quietly when this type of pablum is getting spewed in his 7th grade classes.

And I'll gladly back him up .

While you are at it, please explain to him why the departing execs at Fannie & Freddie get $10 million bonuses. On your back and mine. Pays to be a crook?

[howard roark]

While you are at it, please explain to him why the departing execs at Fannie & Freddie get $10 million bonuses. On your back and mine. Pays to be a crook?

I 'll explain it ( to both of you obviously ) as soon as you explain to me what Fannie and Freddie have to do with it? I simply pointed out bs gunn was talking of marxism and your retort is how it pays to be a crook? :huh: Having people work to get their own - its called THE AMERICAN DREAM - vs having someone else support you to get a peice of theirs?

What do you teach your kids? Steal from someone else before they steal from you? :gasp:

[Red50Go]

I 'll explain it ( to both of you obviously ) as soon as you explain to me what Fannie and Freddie have to do with it? I simply pointed out bs gunn was talking of marxism and your retort is how it pays to be a crook? :huh: Having people work to get their own - its called THE AMERICAN DREAM - vs having someone else support you to get a peice of theirs?

What do you teach your kids? Steal from someone else before they steal from you? :gasp:

Welfare for the poor is bad. Welfare for the rich is good. I dont teach that but I see where they get it. Get yours and F everyone else. You cant possibly tell me you are not angered at the gov. bailouts of Freddie, Fannie, Bear Stearns, etc, on the backs of taxpayers while all these failed execs walk away w/ hundreds of millions.

My only point, and last, is McCain and Obama both have similar plans. One will be boost the economy more than the other, to ALL of our benefit, rich & poor. And we can agree to disagree on who's that is, w/out all the extreme rhetoric. If it were me it would all go to our soldiers and their families, but I doubt many are in the top 5% either.

[CarlE]

[QUOTE]


As far as give me your money so you can "help the folks that need it"... I would be willing to bet that if CarlE or myself was given 100K we could turn it into 200k in 7 yrs and you would be broke.

You meant 7 months, right? Heck, even 7 days. It wouldn't take me 7 years to double $100K. You, or any other intelligent poster on here either. Heck, TigerCoach could double it in 7 minutes!!!

[TigerCoach]

The top 1% of Americans also pay 40% of the total taxes that this country takes in. Does that sound fair?

Or how about this? The bottom 50% of all wage earners only pay 3% of all the total tax revenue in the U.S. Does that sound fair?

For you people who like facts, ok, here are the facts in this report dated 8/14/08..........http://www.atr.org/content/pdf/2008/August/081408ot-federalincometaxandwhattheypay.pdf


Carl & I don't think so, by the way. That's why he is moving to the Bahamas.

No comments on this article???? C'mon people, it's no wonder we have a country of uninformed voters.

[DE#53]

Raising the taxes on the top 5% of the earners in America while lowering the taxes for 95% of America. I think that's exactly what 95% of us want. If you're in that 5% I don't feel bad for you in the least. Give me your money so I can help out the folks that need it and thanks for it :-).

Last time I checked teaching was mostly educational. So sounds like you're on my team. Welcome aboard

Republicans home of the rich bastards and the hypocritical righteous. I want to raise up my fellow human being but please don't expect me to actually do anything to help!
Your numbers are inaccurate. I believe anyone who makes over 42K will see tax increases. Obama also wants to increase fuel tax. He is proposing a 28% tax on all profits made if you sell your home. He's not for drilling. He supports Pelosi's idea of taxing IRA's, 401K's, and any other retirement funds and giving the money to the poor and illegals. Now I work for a living and sure as heck don't want to give any of my pension to someone who didn't work for any of MY money do you? It's so hard for people to retire already. This would make it even worse.
Increasing the amount of money spent per student will never fix the educational issues we have. E. Cleveland city schools spend the most money per student in N.E. Ohio and annually have some of the worst scores overall when it comes to testing. The material is presented at school and it's up to the student and the parents at home to see that homework is done, lecture notes are reviewed, the required reading assignments from the text book is read and any worksheets and or projects get done. The student is ACCOUNTABLE! If a student now days just does his homework regularly and turns it in on time the will at least pass. Getting some of these kids to do that is a chore.

Your blanket statement about rich people being bastards is unfair. I know who your addressing. The C.E.O.'s and big corp. administration. I agree that SOME of these people are blood suckers who get rich off our labor. But many have worked hard to get to where they are today. That's the American way. Most all of the big companies start out small and take risk and with some smarts and business smarts make it. Our country was built on that! Ford, Home Depot, Starbucks, and even Camelot Music started out of the trunk of a car. We need to stop giving handouts and use the money the illegals and poor already get and provide some type of training so they can enjoy the american dream too. Maybe allow financial assistance for 3 years with some required schooling or learning a trade. Then if they are able body they can join the work force and pay taxes too. If they can't accomplish that within the 3 years the money is cut off.
All people who follow god are sinners just like non believers do. No where does it say that once you become a believer that you will sprout angel wings and never sin again. Christians are human and are tempted just as often as anyone else. Maybe looking at politicians is not the best way to see what the Ten Commandments is all about. There are many good examples to follow that support the republican party. Billy Grahm is one. Wanting prayer in school, wanting "one nation under god" in the pledge, and other basic principals this country was founded on doesn't seem threatening to me.

If you want to raise up your fellow human being give them some work boots and means to learn a trade. My back is tired of carrying the dead weight!

II Thessalonians 3:10 Whoever does not work should not eat.

[TigerCoach]

Raising the taxes on the top 5% of the earners in America while lowering the taxes for 95% of America. I think that's exactly what 95% of us want. If you're in that 5% I don't feel bad for you in the least. Give me your money so I can help out the folks that need it and thanks for it :-).

Last time I checked teaching was mostly educational. So sounds like you're on my team. Welcome aboard

Republicans home of the rich bastards and the hypocritical righteous. I want to raise up my fellow human being but please don't expect me to actually do anything to help!

I'd realy like your thoughts on this article, BS. To summarize it for you, since most Democrats are under-educated and only believe what their party leaders feed them.........

The top 1% of all wage earners (people who make money at a job) pay 40% (almost half) of all the taxes collected by the IRS (this is who you pay your taxes to). Also, the bottom 50% of all wage earners (the middle and lower class that the Democrats want to save) only pays 3% of all taxes. What exactly do the Dems want to be more fair? The rich pay 50%? 60%? Please tell us, because your thinking is really scary. By the way, I also provided a link to my data like you requested in an earlier post.

This is not a political driven study done by Republicans. It's direct from IRS data. Hard to argue with, but I'm sure you'll find a way.

[CarlE]

bsgunn:

We're waiting.

[BigTime]

The results here mirror those elsewhere. McCain/ Palin widdening the gap.

[Indiana95]

Let me say a couple of things on this matter. Most, if not all of you posting here, would be very surprised to know that the 1% you are talking about are about as evenly split between Dems and Reps as it gets. Logic would tell you otherwise, based on what is being posted here regarding taxation. In fact, I know SEVERAL individuals who are registered republicans who will not be voting for their party, regardless of Obama's taxing plan. And I'm taking about people who are probably in the top .5%.

Those of you who think you know what the top 1% believes and how they lean need to think again........

[Indiana95]

Oh, and another thing....the top 1%, who are republicans and will be voting that way, don't give a crap about abortion, gun rights, etc. Their vote is purely financial.

[TomcatTiger]

Oh, and another thing....the top 1%, who are republicans and will be voting that way, don't give a crap about abortion, gun rights, etc. Their vote is purely financial.

And the vote of welfare recipients is purely financial too. I guess they are evil in your eyes too.

[Indiana95]

And the vote of welfare recipients is purely financial too. Whats your point?

My point is, the GOP is not a unified party. It's the party of single issue voters.....I know many pro-life people who share almost the same views with me on other issues, who will vote GOP for that reason only. I know people in the top 1% who vote GOP for financial reasons only.....Get my point there buddy? It goes on and on (guns, bible thumping, etc.)

Believe me, I do not agree with ALL of the democratic principles, but in general terms....I agree more with them than GOP principles. I DO NOT vote as a one issue citizen, like so many others!

[SternRulz]

And the vote of welfare recipients is purely financial too. I guess they are evil in your eyes too.

LOL - Is there a stat that shows the percentage of welfare recipients that vote? My guess is that it's very low.

[OTC TIGER]

Oh, and another thing....the top 1%, who are republicans and will be voting that way, don't give a crap about abortion, gun rights, etc. Their vote is purely financial.

Some republicans may not care about abortion per se..but they sure as he!! don't want the Govt. paying for it.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

Speaking of abortion. I posed this question on another thread and NOBODY wanted to address it!

If Sarah Palin is 100% Pro-life, in all cases, then why in the world would she put her unborn fetus at risk by having an amneocentisis(sp) performed on her during her last pregnancy? I mean, if she's going to have the child anyway, why would a Pro-life advocate risk killing the child by allowing a needle to be shoved into her uterus? And oh by the way, the procedure does increase the risk of mis-carriage! :scratchchin:

Please take a minute to consider writing in man T. Boone Pickens! I know your attention spans are barely a minute long, but consider him! He has a plan!

[DE#53]

[

Some republicans may not care about abortion per se..but they sure as he!! don't want the Govt. paying for it.[/QUOTE]

Just my 2 cents. I'm a Republican and don't think abortion should be a political issue. I think the woman should have the right to it but should have to wait a few days to think it over and then make they're choice. I don't encourage it but I'm a man so I won't ever have to make that decision. It's a moral issue.

[TigerCoach]

My point is, the GOP is not a unified party. It's the party of single issue voters.....I know many pro-life people who share almost the same views with me on other issues, who will vote GOP for that reason only. I know people in the top 1% who vote GOP for financial reasons only.....Get my point there buddy? It goes on and on (guns, bible thumping, etc.)

I don't think any party is a unified party because everyone, regardless of party affiliation, has a different view of the individual issues that you mention.

This entire difference of opinion boils down to one major issue. It's was so important to the founding fathers that it dictated the Bill of Rights, but society has forgotten about it, and it forms the basis for the differences in the Republican and Democratic parties.

This fundamental concern evolves around the concept of having control of your own destiny and the right to choose. Republicans do not want the government telling us what we can or cannot do, how much money we should make, how much we should donate to charity, etc. (By charity, I include welfare and illegal immigrant assistance).

The individual issues are secondary. I don't want the government telling me that I have to pay more taxes so the lower class can prosper. I control my destiny, not the government. I take risk and expect to be rewarded for it, and possibly suffer losses as a result, but I want to make that decision not the government. If some people chose not to better themselves, or don't have the ability to do so, I feel for them and will assist them in any way I can, but it will be at my discretion, not the government telling me how do do it via taxes!

That, my friends, about sums it all up.:unclesam:

[TigerswillbeTigers]

I find it interesting that in little ol Massillon, on a rather small website, there's been 104 votes and John McCain only has 50 of them!
I mean, heck, he's running against a black man, that has limited political experience, who's name is Barack HUSSEIN Obama, that has been accused of being a "mooslim", that has been slammmmmmed in the media for his "ties" to many undesirables, and he's got less then 50% of the votes! Lol

I know this is only one tiny little poll, but it's in Massillon, Oh.! Not Chicago, Il. or Boston, Ma.! What's that tell us about McCain/Palin? I'm thinking McCain/Palin must not pass the smell test, and alot of folks are dead set against 4 more years of republican politics!

[SuperBran]

This fundamental concern evolves around the concept of having control of your own destiny and the right to choose. Republicans do not want the government telling us what we can or cannot do...

really? so the republicans are all about control of your destiny and the right to choose? LOL. could have fooled me.

how does your assertion above reconcile with the republican view on abortion and gay marriage? the republicans don't seem to adhere to the right to choose in these areas.

i'll fix it for you:

This fundamental concern evolves around the concept of having control of your own destiny and the right to choose. Republicans do not want the government telling us what we can or cannot do, unless it fits their beliefs, in which case it's okay.

[TigerCoach]

really? so the republicans are all about control of your destiny and the right to choose? LOL. could have fooled me.

how does your assertion above reconcile with the republican view on abortion and gay marriage?

I should clarify....the right to choose your own destiny. Abortion is more of a religious issue that the politicians play to their advantage/disadvantage anyways. Abortion has never been a fundamental issue of the Republican party. By trying to pigeon hole statements like you are, you are falling into the trap of most Americans. It's an issue of big government or little government here, maybe that relates better.

[bs.gunn]

I am not a marxist and frankly you sound stupid throwing around words like that. Never in my life have I heard so many people throw out statements like "YOU'RE A COMMIE, Socialist, marxist!!"

Believe it or not there are aspects to most everything that are good and you can take certain bits of philosophy and make them your own without being painted whole by the entire brush. I'm certainly a capitalist and like capitalism, but believing that we should lift our poor up makes me a marxist?

I mean you don't like poor people should I call you a satanist?

I am not an economics guy. It bores the hell out of me. However if you are trying to say that somehow raising a few taxes here or there is going to surpass cutting taxes for 95%. Then I'm sorry. But there are far brighter people out there, that I believe in this case more than half the jokers here. I pick my leaders on things I trust about them and past records. I trust them to hire people who know what their talking about and they disagree with many of the republicans on just about everything. So I will take a pass here and believe that when they tell me they're for lowering taxes for 95% of us and raising them on 5% of us to cover them I believe them. I also believe them when they say that we're in troubling times and a change needs to be a coming and that the last 8 years of our economy going to shit is mostly to blame on Bush and his poor decision making abilities. That Mcsame is 4 more years of poorly advised governing is something I want to avoid at all costs.

I accept that I may pay more in taxes. I also accept that those taxes will go to support programs I believe in

[OTC TIGER]

b.s.gunn...Do you still believe in the Easter Bunny..:laughing:

[SuperBran]

I should clarify....the right to choose your own destiny. Abortion is more of a religious issue that the politicians play to their advantage/disadvantage anyways. Abortion has never been a fundamental issue of the Republican party. By trying to pigeon hole statements like you are, you are falling into the trap of most Americans.

doesn't abortion (deciding to live with or without a child) or marriage (deciding who to spend your life with) fall under the category of choosing your own destiny? these decisions certainly affect your destiny as much as how you handle your money. or are you going to narrow the concept to fit your argument (i.e., limit it only to money)?

abortion may not be a "fundamental" issue of the republican party, but it's certainly a big issue.

fell into a trap? you said the republicans were for personal choice....that they don't want the government telling them what they can or cannot do. i simply pointed out the error of that statement. don't blame me if you're not clear.

just like everyone else, republicans like the government to interfere when it suits their needs, and want them out when it doesn't. democrats are like this as well. it certainly isn't all republicans, just as it isn't all democrats.

[TomcatTiger]

I am not an economics guy.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

Perhaps bs.gunn is actually John McCain! That comments sounds very familiar!

[TigerCoach]

I am not an economics guy. It bores the hell out of me. However if you are trying to say that somehow raising a few taxes here or there is going to surpass cutting taxes for 95%. Then I'm sorry. But there are far brighter people out there, that I believe in this case more than half the jokers here. I pick my leaders on things I trust about them and past records. I trust them to hire people who know what their talking about and they disagree with many of the republicans on just about everything. So I will take a pass here and believe that when they tell me they're for lowering taxes for 95% of us and raising them on 5% of us to cover them I believe them. I also believe them when they say that we're in troubling times and a change needs to be a coming and that the last 8 years of our economy going to shit is mostly to blame on Bush and his poor decision making abilities. That Mcsame is 4 more years of poorly advised governing is something I want to avoid at all costs.

Another one bites the dust!! Based on your admission, you are hereby banned from all future discussions concerning politics or economics.:tonguewave:

[TigerCoach]

b.s.gunn...Do you still believe in the Easter Bunny..:laughing:


Democrats believe that Santa Claus is real because their parents told them it was true and they had no reason to not believe them. Republicans do some work to find out the real story of Santa Claus........like when their 8 years old!

[TigerswillbeTigers]

TC is right! My parents were republicans and there was no Santa Claus in our lives....ever! Just a couple of gifts from mommy and daddy under the tree for me and my 5 siblings. The damn neighbors must have been democrats. Their kids got a bunch of gifts...... from SANTA!

[SternRulz]

Speaking of abortion. I posed this question on another thread and NOBODY wanted to address it!

If Sarah Palin is 100% Pro-life, in all cases, then why in the world would she put her unborn fetus at risk by having an amneocentisis(sp) performed on her during her last pregnancy? I mean, if she's going to have the child anyway, why would a Pro-life advocate risk killing the child by allowing a needle to be shoved into her uterus? And oh by the way, the procedure does increase the risk of mis-carriage! :scratchchin:

Please take a minute to consider writing in man T. Boone Pickens! I know your attention spans are barely a minute long, but consider him! He has a plan!

I'll address it. Some woman just want or need the reassurance of knowing if their baby is genetically okay. Some woman want to know so they can prepare themselves and family in case there is something genetically wrong. An Amnio can test for hundreds of different genetic disorders...not just Downs Syndrome. Just because someone has an amnio does not mean they intend to have an abortion if a genetic defect is found.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

Ok, then why put the fetus at risk if NO MATTER WHAT the result, they're gonna give birth. Also, it does increase the risk of mis-carriage! Isn't that a problem for a Pro-lifer? Putting the child at risk?

[bs.gunn]

Democrats believe that Santa Claus is real because their parents told them it was true and they had no reason to not believe them. Republicans do some work to find out the real story of Santa Claus........like when their 8 years old!

hooo hooo heee heee

Ya'll got JOKES!

If I'm not allowed talking about economics because I've never had any major education in economics besides some under grad classes then I will begin my list of topics most of you can not discuss starting with Massillon.

[SternRulz]

Ok, then why put the fetus at risk if NO MATTER WHAT the result, they're gonna give birth. Also, it does increase the risk of mis-carriage! Isn't that a problem for a Pro-lifer? Putting the child at risk?

I addressed that...to prepare and be prepared. If there are significant issues that will need fulltime care/help, specific equipment etc. Also, just for the sake of gaining knowledge in preparation rather than finding out at birth and having to start from zero.

It's just a personal choice. Some women do it, some don't. The risk has to be justified for that person I guess.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

I think I'm following your logic, but are you saying that it's "likely" that Sarah Palin was looking for a "heads up" as to the "possibility" of needing "full time care/help", and "special equipment", among other things, so she didn't need to "start from zero" in the event the child had a rare disease? This is a viable explanation for putting a child at risk? After having 4 healthy children?
I've spoke with several Pro-life freinds and family members (women) that have said it's inconceivable that anyone could talk them into having an amneo, for any reason, because it's a risk not worth taking!
I guess your analogy could be correct.

[SuperBran]

Republicans do some work to find out the real story of Santa Claus.


i wish one republican would have done some work to find out the real story of iraq.

:eek2:

[TigerVic]

For those who can't comprehend why people who value the sacredness of human life from the moment of fertilization can look upon abortion and embryonic stem cell research as top priority issues when deciding which candidates to vote for (or disqualify as possibilities), perhaps this might help:

Would you say to a candidate: While I really agree with all your stands and plans on issues such as foreign policy, health care, the war in Iraq, etc., I really don't agree with your stand that child abuse should be made safe and legal up to 7 years old (and that safe and legal child abuse centers should be free to operate in this land, perhaps with a different, cleaner label like "safe parenthood").

However, since that is just one issue and your other stances are so fantastic, I'll still vote for you.

That is what voting for a pro-death candidate (who sanctions the setting of arbitrary times when deliberately killing human life is OK) would be like for us.

No human being is disposible, whether he or she is wanted or not!!! A candidate should know the difference between serving the public vs. killing the public!!

[OTC TIGER]

[QUOTE=SuperBran;120259]i wish one republican would have done some work to find out the real story of iraq.


You're right...with the Dem led Congress and approval rating lower than the President it's obvious their not working

[SuperBran]

For those who can't comprehend why people who value the sacredness of human life from the moment of fertilization....

if you value the "sacredness of human life" then i guess you're against capital punishment and having troops die in iraq in a "war" that our brilliant president rushed into. right? afterall, if life is so precious, maybe we should be really, really sure before we send men and women off to possibly give their lives for their country. if life is so precious then maybe we shouldn't put prisoners to death but rather keep them in prison where they can sit around for awhile.

Would you say to a candidate: While I really agree with all your stands and plans on issues such as foreign policy, health care, the war in Iraq, etc., I really don't agree with your stand that child abuse should be made safe and legal up to 7 years old (and that safe and legal child abuse centers should be free to operate in this land, perhaps with a different, cleaner label like "safe parenthood").

However, since that is just one issue and your other stances are so fantastic, I'll still vote for you.

i think it would be more ridiculous to say "all of your stances are horrible but you are pro-life and so i'll still vote for you." that's even more brilliant.

That is what voting for a pro-death candidate (who sanctions the setting of arbitrary times when deliberately killing human life is OK) would be like for us.

if a candidate is pro-life but supports capital punishment (i.e., pro-death) you must really pull your hair out.

[SuperBran]

[QUOTE]


You're right...with the Dem led Congress and approval rating lower than the President it's obvious their not working

first, your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. i'm talking about the decision to go to war. who led congress at that time?

second, did i ever say that congress is doing a great job? no, so thanks for playing. if you think our problems in congress lies solely with the democrats, you're living in a dream world. they're ALL a bunch of fools who play a game while our citizens suffer. congress, as a WHOLE, has been pathetic. that includes BOTH parties.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080513ApprovalsGraph1_infh30oins.gif

notice a trend? even when republicans were in control the approval ratings have dropped.

the president's rating has been the lowest recorded, congress' rating is the worst in history........it shows that people are losing faith in our leaders regardless of party affiliation.

[TigerVic]

There is a difference between war (which sometimes justified, particularly for self-defense) and capital punishment (again sometimes, but rarely, justified for the self-defense of the public) and the direct and deliberate killing of one identified and innocent human being who has done nothing wrong, except to exist (which is apparently wrong and inconvienient, or useful for research, for some people).