Enough about the Refs

[TigerDL71]

I came on here expecting people to blame the refs for the loss. I came on here expecting people to say the refs made horrible calls. Even though I expected it, it still ticks me off. I just have one thing to say to everyone complaining about the refs.....GET OVER IT. This is football, look back at the game and please look at all of the different spots where the Massillon Tiger Football team could have done something different to change the outcome of the game. The refs did not decide the game..... the Massillon Tiger Football players did. I am sure Coach Hall will agree and by his quote that someone already posted he pretty much already said, as a player you should never put yourself in the situation where the refs can decide the outcome of the game. This loss is on the players and not the refs. Blaming the refs for the loss is not doing the football program any good.


Another thing that I saw that in a way ticked me off was people complaining about Jordan celebrating. WHAT THE HECK DID YOU EXPECT?!?!? If I played supposed big bad and rich in history Massillon and I came all the way from Jordan, Utah and beat them in their backyard, a place where we should be familar with, I would be celebrating too. I am sorry this is Massillon, Ohio. Not some other ricky dink school. We have a big target on our chest and unless we get that swager back, which I think Hall will get us there eventually, we better get used to it because I am sure it will happen again.

[Die Hard Eric]

:iagree:
Sticky this post and close all others.

[pbts]

The problem wasn't that the kids celebrated it was the way a few of them did. From what I saw four or five Jordan players ran in front of the Tiger fans taunting and gesturing after the field goal. Especially obnoxious was a younger gentlemen in a black oxford shirt(was he a coach?). Just my two cents. A shame, in my opinion, because I really thought the Jordan kids overall were very classy.

[Mover]

A celebration is to be expected after a close victory, however just as IN the game, that celebration should be amongst the victorious, and not directed to the bench and fans of the defeated team. Their celebration amounted primarily to taunting and as such is properly deemed poor sportsmanship. Scholastic athletics should aspire to some level of redeeming human values-after all these life lessons are what we have all told ourselves is the value of athletics. Had the taunting not occurred there was a very good possiblity that Jordan would have recieved polite applause as befits a gracious loser at the end of a superb competition, and, as I have personnally witnessed our fans do in the past. Thus the contest would begin and end properly- with mutual respect and honor. We must all remember that good sportsmanship also applies in victory as well as defeat- a "life lesson" Jordan obviously needs to learn. Taunting after a big play is unacceptable behavior as it is unacceptable after the game or in the business world. I would hope to never see a Massillon team behave so poorly in victory as that. It is a real shame that occurred, because up until that point I had nothing but respect for that team. I hope they can correct that aspect. We must be careful in what we teach our children.

[Striker300]

They are h.s. KIDS! And as kids they won the game with :01 on the clock, a celebration and a little over reaction would be expected. They were excited kids, not seasoned pros. Jordan played a great game and won. We had plenty of chances. And any of the questionable things that happened were not the kids faults, from either team. These mistakes were made by grown adult individuals. And they are the ones who should be held accountable. Not for an OHSAA review, but as to whether they ever get to do the job they were doing last night again! In the real world adults get fired for doing a bad job.

[TigerDL71]

A celebration is to be expected after a close victory, however just as IN the game, that celebration should be amongst the victorious, and not directed to the bench and fans of the defeated team. Their celebration amounted primarily to taunting and as such is properly deemed poor sportsmanship. Scholastic athletics should aspire to some level of redeeming human values-after all these life lessons are what we have all told ourselves is the value of athletics. Had the taunting not occurred there was a very good possiblity that Jordan would have recieved polite applause as befits a gracious loser at the end of a superb competition, and, as I have personnally witnessed our fans do in the past. Thus the contest would begin and end properly- with mutual respect and honor. We must all remember that good sportsmanship also applies in victory as well as defeat- a "life lesson" Jordan obviously needs to learn. Taunting after a big play is unacceptable behavior as it is unacceptable after the game or in the business world. I would hope to never see a Massillon team behave so poorly in victory as that. It is a real shame that occurred, because up until that point I had nothing but respect for that team. I hope they can correct that aspect. We must be careful in what we teach our children.


Again we have MASSILLON across our chest. Obviously you have no clue what the means and probably have never been in the program.

They are h.s. KIDS! And as kids they won the game with :01 on the clock, a celebration and a little over reaction would be expected. They were excited kids, not seasoned pros. Jordan played a great game and won. We had plenty of chances. And any of the questionable things that happened were not the kids faults, from either team. These mistakes were made by grown adult individuals. And they are the ones who should be held accountable. Not for an OHSAA review, but as to whether they ever get to do the job they were doing last night again! In the real world adults get fired for doing a bad job.


Again as a player, and I am sure coach Hall told the kids this, you should never put yourself in a situation where the refs have a chance to decide the game.

[CATS44]

Football, like life, is full of obstacles and defeats. The best over come them. It is not usually how a person and/or team reacts to victory that defines them. It is how they react to defeat.

The Tigers lost the game. They knocked the bejeebers out of Jordan, but they lost the game. To Jordans credit, the Beetdiggers kept getting back up and marching on. They have deserved reason to celebrate.

Time to move on, to move forward to our goals.

A wise man once said that there are no victories or defeats, there are only results. Only the Tigers can determine what the final result of this game will be. If they use it as a learning experience, and then act positively on that learning experience, Saturday night can end up having a very good result.

GO TIGERS!!!

[Mover]

I have been a true Massillon fan for over 50 years! I know we have a reputation and that we are a target for our opponents! Do not try to tell me I don't have a clue! I am talking about having respect for the opposing team and their fans. I have never seen a Massillon team disrespect an opponents fan base as Jordon did last night. This has happened to us before by other teams and fans. I am truly impressed by the Tiger team. They handled the tauting with class and dignity. I agree we needed to take care of business and if we did we would not of been in that situation, but it doesn't change my perception of the facts. Grow up!

[Tiger Flame]

I agree with you mover. GO TIGERS

[Tiger Flame]

I agree with you mover and Tiger DL 71 !!!! GO TIGERS

[TigerDL71]

I have been a true Massillon fan for over 50 years! I know we have a reputation and that we are a target for our opponents! Do not try to tell me I don't have a clue! I am talking about having respect for the opposing team and their fans. I have never seen a Massillon team disrespect an opponents fan base as Jordon did last night. This has happened to us before by other teams and fans. I am truly impressed by the Tiger team. They handled the tauting with class and dignity. I agree we needed to take care of business and if we did we would not of been in that situation, but it doesn't change my perception of the facts. Grow up!



You are a fan for 50 years but have you ever been apart of the program? Ever played Tiger football? If you don't like teams celebrating when beating us then there are two solutions to the problem...win or go cheer for another team that doesn't have the same tradition as ours our as big of target on our backs. We are not some chicken Sh** school, we the mecca of high school football. I am pretty sure Hall won't tell players awww its okay they shouldn't have celebrated, if you want it to stop win.

[tigerjoe]

'Mover' was simply contending that the Jordan players behaved badly-displayed poor sportsmanship, and that we expect better behavior from our team, win or lose. How our team chooses to respond to this loss is an entirely different topic.

[tigerjoe]

Chill

[diggerdan]

What a game in football heaven you people have over there in Ohio. We are jelous!

I was expecting to see more whining from tiger fans but am astonished at the high level of charether you people have. I always find myself looking for excuses after a game and it usually takes me days to find the high road..

I feel bad for the celebrating. I agree with most that these are H.S. kids. And Jordan came in very intimidated by the history of Massillon and the many rabid fans(you guys are awesome.) Being intimidated the whole game and trying to believe they won, those kids got excited and should have kept that excitment to themselves and not involve your team or fans.
Thanks for undertanding. I think you will have a great season. I think Coach Hall will have your program turned around.

Diggerdan

[DE#53]

I came on here expecting people to blame the refs for the loss. I came on here expecting people to say the refs made horrible calls. Even though I expected it, it still ticks me off. I just have one thing to say to everyone complaining about the refs.....GET OVER IT. This is football, look back at the game and please look at all of the different spots where the Massillon Tiger Football team could have done something different to change the outcome of the game. The refs did not decide the game..... the Massillon Tiger Football players did. I am sure Coach Hall will agree and by his quote that someone already posted he pretty much already said, as a player you should never put yourself in the situation where the refs can decide the outcome of the game. This loss is on the players and not the refs. Blaming the refs for the loss is not doing the football program any good.


Another thing that I saw that in a way ticked me off was people complaining about Jordan celebrating. WHAT THE HECK DID YOU EXPECT?!?!? If I played supposed big bad and rich in history Massillon and I came all the way from Jordan, Utah and beat them in their backyard, a place where we should be familar with, I would be celebrating too. I am sorry this is Massillon, Ohio. Not some other ricky dink school. We have a big target on our chest and unless we get that swager back, which I think Hall will get us there eventually, we better get used to it because I am sure it will happen again.

To a point your right but with all the effort these kids put into playing it's not right when the officials make such a poor decision with the clock. It's not like a judgment call like pass interference or clipping. It was the most basic of rulings a ref has to make. The clock starts when the ball is spotted. However the game was played sometimes it comes down to the last play and a blown call by the refs should not have allowed the field goal to even of been attempted.

[MRR55]

forget about the refs we lost. no excuses! im just impressed with this team as they have made so much improvement from our first scrimmage to last night. they have improved tremendously. they played hard for four quarters as a TEAM, but they just came up short. they will continue to get better each week and will have a nice season.

now tigers turn your focus to Normandy. you boys remember what went down last year. now its your turn to return the favor.

[pbts]

I heard that after the game the Jordan kids had to pick up the trash in the stands. Is this something Jordan normally does or could this possibly be the coach's response to the taunting he witnessed? Digger Dan, any insights?

[CATS44]

These Jordan kids came into our community, spent a day with our little kids, and played one hell of a football game. They have a demonstrated history of community volunteerism.

And some of OUR fans want to knock them for a little (maybe over exhuberant) celebrating at the end of a come from behind win on the last play of the game?

IMO our program should be LEARNING from Jordan's, not whining.

[diggerdan]

I heard that after the game the Jordan kids had to pick up the trash in the stands. Is this something Jordan normally does or could this possibly be the coach's response to the taunting he witnessed? Digger Dan, any insights?

This is something we have done in basketball (at least when I was there) I havnt paid attention if it has continued or started.

[pbts]

Two wrongs don't make a right. The kids should be applauded for their community involvement but does that mean their behaviour after the field goal shouldn't be addressed? I understand these are high school kids and that they were excited but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. That being said, I agree our kids could learn ALOT from what the Beetdiggers overall demonstrated on their visit to Tigertown. On a final note, why is dialoging about the issue being equated with whining?

[pbts]

Digger Dan, I really like Jordan's approach to athletics. Sports are supposed to, above all else, convey values to the kids. I can't think of a better way to teach humility after a victory than picking up trash in the stands. Beautiful.

[scottyotc]

If the score were 40-0 at.00 the refs would be no issue....

at.00 it said Jordan 27 Massillon 24.....

nuff said

btw last play took 6.5 seconds resetting to 5 was PERFECT......OTC failed....

Scotty otc out

[TigerVic]

What a game in football heaven you people have over there in Ohio. We are jelous!

I was expecting to see more whining from tiger fans but am astonished at the high level of charether you people have. I always find myself looking for excuses after a game and it usually takes me days to find the high road..

I feel bad for the celebrating. I agree with most that these are H.S. kids. And Jordan came in very intimidated by the history of Massillon and the many rabid fans(you guys are awesome.) Being intimidated the whole game and trying to believe they won, those kids got excited and should have kept that excitment to themselves and not involve your team or fans.
Thanks for undertanding. I think you will have a great season. I think Coach Hall will have your program turned around.

Diggerdan

Thank you, DiggerDan! I'm glad you enjoyed yourself in the cradle of HS football!

I thought it was a well-played game with sportsmanship abounding throughout. It's a shame it had to end the way it it did (I mean in terms of the refs, taunting, etc., not that Jordan won). It would have made for an interesting OT!

Good luck in the future!!

[monte81]

I will say one thing over the last 3 seasons that we have a VERY HARD time covering any team running some type of spread offense. That needs to be addressed real fast by our defensive staff. Most HS linebackers cannot cover slot Wr's but we refuse to get in a nickle or dime package like in 2005 when we had 5-6 Db's on the field 75% of the time. We gave up 250 yards in the air and 70+ rushing to the QB. That along with not scoring in the red zone killed us--you can never leave scoring oppurtunities on the table---Period.

A few calls and time clock was questionable, however the game should of not came down to those few plays. If we score "7" instead of "3" on the opponents 15 then we win!!!!

Coach Hall showed class in his statement about the game.
GO TIGERS! BEAT NORMANDY!!!!!!!

[TigerDL71]

I will say one thing over the last 3 seasons that we have a VERY HARD time covering any team running some type of spread offense. That needs to be addressed real fast by our defensive staff. Most HS linebackers cannot cover slot Wr's but we refuse to get in a nickle or dime package like in 2005 when we had 5-6 Db's on the field 75% of the time. We gave up 250 yards in the air and 70+ rushing to the QB. That along with not scoring in the red zone killed us--you can never leave scoring oppurtunities on the table---Period.

A few calls and time clock was questionable, however the game should of not came down to those few plays. If we score "7" instead of "3" on the opponents 15 then we win!!!!

Coach Hall showed class in his statement about the game.
GO TIGERS! BEAT NORMANDY!!!!!!!



:iagree:

[Kenny M.]

DiggerDan, are you glad you went to the Massillon/Jordan game in Canton rather than the BYU game? Was it everything you expected? Thanks for sharing your experiences on our site.

[pbts]

Yeah, Digger Dan can you tell us about your experience here in Tigertown! What were your thoughts(good and bad)?

[Kenny M.]

Does anyone know how many people were at the game? Were there many Utah fans who made the trek? Anything you can share, DiggerDan?

[diggerdan]

DiggerDan, are you glad you went to the Massillon/Jordan game in Canton rather than the BYU game? Was it everything you expected? Thanks for sharing your experiences on our site.

To be honest? This was our favorite trip in a long time! Not because we won. I feel like I would have liked to go to overtime so there was nothing left on the field like there was.

Leaving the game out of this. This trip to neo was heaps of fun! We flew in Tuesday evening and stayed in downtown Cleveland for a couple nights. Then we went to Kirtland where we saw our religon (LDS/Mormon) history. Beautiful! Chagrin falls was a cozy town my wife liked.

Amish country was fascinating. Living so far away we really didnt know much about the Amish. Still don't.

Ohio is so green! So many big trees everywhere. We have large mountains but I think Ohio is prettier with all those big trees and rolling hills.

Then we arrived in Massillon Friday night. WOW! what a great town you live in! So much history.
We peeked in your PBTS around 6 or 7 when Cathederal high school was practicing on your field. My friends and family could not believe me when we showed them the pictures of your big stadium and indoor practice facility (didnt see inside:sad:)

Game day was awesome!! Football hall of fame and Utah-Michigan at Buffalo wild wings! Awesome wings!! we dont have one here.

The game...I honestly was expeciting to lose. I thought we would lose by at least 2 touchdowns. I knew we could move the ball and score but our defense has been suspect at best. I was expecting the final to be 49-35 for Massillon. I was hoping for overtime because I love overtime games and as I said before I didnt want anything to be left on the field.
J. Turner is a great player (he knows it too ha ha) I heard good things about #7 he looked great on one punt return but I didnt see much after that. I would love to see him in our spread offense!

After last weeks loss, competing with a team as good as Massillon gives me hope we can maybe get to the state game here in Utah this year.

We loved Ohio!!!! even have talked about moving to Chagrin Falls. Long shot though.

I would LOVE to see a cross country rivalry between our schools!
I would love to come back to Ohio rather than Massillon coming here just cause we loved it so much there.

[diggerdan]

Does anyone know how many people were at the game? Were there many Utah fans who made the trek? Anything you can share, DiggerDan?
We had about 20-30 fans. Mostly parents.

[tigerjoe]

Catts 44 ; We all must remember that statement from Paul Brown-" Act like you've been there before"- was meant to instill respect and honor and good sportmanship into scholastic competition- win or lose- you don't get a pass!

[tigerjoe]

btw- that is not whining- it is instruction.- From Paul Brown.

[CATS44]

joe: Paul Brown also said...

"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less."

"A winner never whines."

"Football is a game of errors. The team that makes the fewest errors in a game usually wins."

"You can learn a line from a game and a book from a loss."

Our concerns in Tigertown should be solely centered on the team from Tigertown, not on the actions, percieved or otherwise, of any other team. All four instructions are for the team. The first two also apply to us, the fans.

1) We are yapping when we should be focusing on tomorrow.
2) We are whining.

3) IMO its safe to say that the team made more errors than did either Jordan or the refs. Thats not a knock, just an observation. The team improved from week one, and I expect that it will improve from this learning experience. The next time it has the opportunity to finish off an opponent, it will.

4) The Jordan game can only become a positive experience if the team adheres to all four instructions, esp #4. We are of no positive value to the players, and in fact can be a negative influence on the kids, if we continue to disobey our part of the instructions.

[Rushfan]

Cats-very,very good post. But I always thought Brown's quote was "When you lose,say nothing;when you win,say even less".

[pbts]

Thank you Digger Dan for your insights.

[march]

Thank you Monte.I posted about this earlier but was chastised for complaining.Ever since the 06 Moeller game we have been terrible against the spread.
I thought the 50 shade was perfect for our program.
Credit to Jordan though for the use of the shovel pass.They beat the D in a chess game of sorts.

[pbts]

Yes, I don't like that discussing an issue is labeled as "complaining" or "whining." How can there be growth when one can not even address an issue? Do some complain? Yes. Do some whine? Yes. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

[monte81]

Thank you Monte.I posted about this earlier but was chastised for complaining.Ever since the 06 Moeller game we have been terrible against the spread.
I thought the 50 shade was perfect for our program.
Credit to Jordan though for the use of the shovel pass.They beat the D in a chess game of sorts.

Thing is you play the 4-3 when your interior lineman are beasts, you play a 3-4 when your linebackers are the strength but against the spread with 3 to 5 step drops you have to be able to cover--PERIOD because a pass rush is somewhat negated by the quick hitting passes! After 2005 we stopped using the 3-3-5 defense that made us so special. Maybe its because we may not have the players in the defensive backfield compared to that team---BG, Daily, Podder MP, Ellis, and James were ball hawkers all game long! However the spread is killing us----we gave uo 400+ yards to a team with far less team speed and that is amazing to me. NOWAY we should give up that many yards on a shovel pass or spread in any game IMHO!!!

That being said I support the team 100% but just feel we cannot line up with linebackers covering slot WR's in the spread and win against quality teams. In the spread a linebacker has to shadow the QB, OLB's has to pinch hard to disrupt, and DB's have to be able to play man. Why do our players always go for the big hit instead of pass break ups? Oh, why do we sit back and play base with little to no blitz scemes?

[Red50Go]

Those are good points. I am sure the coaching staff has a fair amount of hindsight on that game too. They better anyhow. We are still a work in progress but it does concern me Kovacs has had several opportunities now to scheme against the spread, w/ little success. But I like Hall alot so we'll see.

We were not getting a pass rush, mostly because that line was HUGE, and they were good. We may as well have dropped everybody back. I remember Bruce vs Texas Tech in a bowl game when he went w/ 7 dbs, and only rushed 2 guys. They were a big time spread offense at the time. We shut them down. That was a great defensive gameplan.

[allman's aunt]

Thanks Digger Dan, for all the nice things you had to say. I'm glad you enjoyed your time here and I agree it would be fun to do again. I don't blame your team for being excited about their victory, but I would have loved to see the game be finished in OT. I feel the same as you about not wanting anything left undone on the field...just doesn't feel right:thanx: Maybe we can mail you some of those BW3 wings!!!

[march]

At the td club today JH said we are considering using a different scheme against spread teams.Yes.This guy gets it.

[pbts]

Encouraging news! I really respect coach Hall in what he has done so far.

[massillon catholic]

At the td club today JH said we are considering using a different scheme against spread teams.Yes.This guy gets it.

He needs too. Kovacs has never been able to stop the spread.

[Obie Wan]

A team with slow LB's will always struggle against the spread. A WR going against an LB is a mismatch; Mentor ate us up last year with that. Having said that, the increasingly popular 3-3-5 (or something similar) might not hurt, assuming we have the personnel to run the package.

[DAWGH8R]

He needs too. Kovacs has never been able to stop the spread.

The spread of what .........??:laughing:

[march]

The 3-3-5 stack is interesting.It naturally clogs up the inside run lanes due to the positioning of the lb's and I'm intrigued by the possibilities of having a rover guy.

[slider63]

I really like Kovac's and I think he does a great job with the defense. Having said that, he really seems to struggle against the spread and probably needs to do something different. Slider, out!!!

[giant lugey]

A lot of teams struggle defending the spread. Even Ohio State has trouble defending it. That is why many teams are going to it.
BTW..Mckinleys new offense is the spread and while they may not be very good now, they will probably improve by week 10.

[BigTime]

He needs too. Kovacs has never been able to stop the spread.

August 25, 2005: Massillon 34 Dover 0

We brought pressure from EVERYWHERE that night

[ChronicTiger]

August 25, 2005: Massillon 34 Dover 0

We brought pressure from EVERYWHERE that night

That was a great Thursday night game. Funny Dover really thought they were going to give us a game. They went from thinking they were going to have a chance to not wanting to play the following season.

nice.

[mike_da_man13]

will these topics die? its almost friggen gameday

[Banks]

That was a great Thursday night game. Funny Dover really thought they were going to give us a game. They went from thinking they were going to have a chance to not wanting to play the following season.

nice.

Dover and Chardon both thought they would beat us in 2005 and why wouldn't they we were coming off back to back 4 and 6 seasons. When they got their butts kicked they both asked to be released from the 2006 contracts.

[pbts]

The atmosphere at the beginning of the Dover game was awesome. I recall that the stadium was almost at capacity. Haven't seen a game like that at Paul Brown in awhile now.

[CarlE]

That was a great Thursday night game. Funny Dover really thought they were going to give us a game. They went from thinking they were going to have a chance to not wanting to play the following season.

nice.

GREAT game. I had a blast there. Does ANYBODY remember that little knucklehead dovaplaya'05 that posted on here?? Little dude just disappeared into the wild blue yonder after that game.

[OTC TIGER]

[QUOTE=Obie Wan;118684]A team with slow LB's will always struggle against the spread. A WR going against an LB is a mismatch;

Just for the record...our backers are not slow nor did they play man coverage against Jordan.

[The Butler]

GREAT game. I had a blast there. Does ANYBODY remember that little knucklehead dovaplaya'05 that posted on here?? Little dude just disappeared into the wild blue yonder after that game.

I recall hearing something about a tragic tractor/Amish buggy crash late that night.

[massillon catholic]

August 25, 2005: Massillon 34 Dover 0

We brought pressure from EVERYWHERE that night

Thats what works against the spread, PRESSURE!! But, lately Kovacs seems content on rushing three or fours guys and dropping seven or eight and it just doesnt work.

[TigerswillbeTigers]

Good Lord MC! When did you get out of the penalty box?

[BigTime]

Thats what works against the spread, PRESSURE!! But, lately Kovacs seems content on rushing three or fours guys and dropping seven or eight and it just doesnt work.

I agree. I think you have to just take your front 7 and blast them up the field and let your DBs fill the 2nd third. It works but if you don't get the QB and he can uncork a bomb it will probably result in at score.

High risk = high reward.

[massillon catholic]

Good Lord MC! When did you get out of the penalty box?


It wasnt easy!

[monte81]

[QUOTE]

Just for the record...our backers are not slow nor did they play man coverage against Jordan.

LB's in the cover 2, 3, or 4 sceme against the spread is a mismatch either way you look at it. Our LB's may not be SLOW but they are not DB's either.

See, the spread runs fast plays and it is about being in the right positions. It is hard to get pash rushes on 3 or 5 step drops so you must rush 5, use 1 LB to shadow the QB and drop back 5 to cover all the routes. The 3-3-5 sceme we used in 2005 was perfect for the spread if you have that many quality cover men. In 05 Ellis and James were lock-up corners while BG, Pooder, and Daily just cleaned clocks rooming. WE even line up with 6 DB's because Mike P was also in the game alot as well.

I run the spread with my freshman team and we score easily by finding mismatches. A scenerio----- twins right, y left weakside rocket screen. Most teams will adjust the safeties to the strong side which is almost always a smoke screen because---You have a corner used to playing zone one on one with the offenses best WR and the only person to beat to the endzone with 10-12 yard cushion before the safety even realizes the play! If a team lines without a nickle package I might score RIGHT NOW. Last Saturday I scored 2 TD's on 3 plays!!!!!!

Hopefully our coaches can figure it out!!! BEAT NORMANDY!!!!