Massillon firefighter

[calcm]

Can someone enlighten us as to how the firefighter living in Las Vegas gets back and forth for his job?

How many trips does he make in a week?

If he's flying, the plane fare must take a great big chunk out of his paycheck.

[Obie Wan]

Can someone enlighten us as to how the firefighter living in Las Vegas gets back and forth for his job?

How many trips does he make in a week?

If he's flying, the plane fare must take a great big chunk out of his paycheck.
Well, if you read the Inde article (http://www.indeonline.com/index.php?ID=10759&r=0&Category=1), you'll notice that he just bought a $452,000 in Las Vegas, so he might be able to afford airfare. :tonguewave: Not that I see how his home address and the value of his house are really germane to the issue and need to be in the paper.

There's some pretty interesting stuff about this situation in the Council minutes (http://www.massillonohio.com/citycouncil/080706min.htm). Ckeck out this statement by Councilman Bryan to Safety Service Director Loudiana: "in the firefighters collective bargaining agreement you negotiated a clause that says something to the effect “if the state changes the residency law then they no longer have to abide by the residency law of the City of Massillon” or something to that effect.""

It appears that the CBA negotiated between the city and the firefighters permits him to move if the state changes its residency law - which it did last spring. From the CBA: "any time the state adopts a residency law that conflicts with this article state residency law shall super cede the more restrictive requirement of section 1 of this article." Therefore, it would seem that the city ordinance is at odds with the CBA. In essence, enforcing the ordinance violates the CBA - which was itself adopted as an ordinance.

To summarize, I think it goes like this:
- Massillon had had ordinance (165.01) that required city employees other than firefighters to live in the court district.
- Firefighters had their own residency requirements negotiated in their contract.
- The state changed their law, then Massillon repealed the city ordinance (on July 3) because it conflicted with state law.
- At this point, firefighters were no longer bound by the residency requirements of the CBA (see the exemption noted above).
- The new state law eliminated residency requirements except as passed by initiative petition or legislative authority. Given that Massillon had not passed such an ordinance, Kipp Sherer invoked the clause in the CBA that nullified the negotiated residency requirements in order to move to Las Vegas. He informed the city of his decision on 8/2.
- On 8/7 city council passed a new ordinance that required all city employees to live in Stark or adjacent counties.
- The city has taken the position that the new ordinance prohibits him from living in Las Vegas and keeping his job.

[CarlE]

What the heck kind of jack is this guy making as a firefighter that he can go drop $450K on a house? Perhaps fyrewood is someone we should be showing a WHOLE lot more respect for than we do!! LOL.

Anyway, there sure are a lot of questions that will need to be answered. I think this is going to get VERY interesting.

[Munson]

The paper said today that he and his sister own a business in vegas. Computer oriented I think. Could explain the income.

[GrowlingTiger87]

He needs to be canned, period. This is ludicrous.

[Obie Wan]

He needs to be canned, period. This is ludicrous.
Ah, but on what basis?

There is a chance that what he is doing is permitted under the CBA that the city negotiated with the firefighters. And remember, that CBA was adopted as an ordinance by the city, so it has the force of law. It may be a rediculous situation, but the city put themselves into this predicament.

[fyrewood]

ObieWan,

Your analysis of the situation is 100% on the money. That's pretty much exactly how it happened. I may be biased, but in my opinion the city doesn't have a leg to stand on and will only end up losing taxpayer's money if they continue to pursue the matter.


For the rest wondering, Kipp splits his time between Pittsburgh, Las Vegas and Massillon and is currently finishing up studies at Carnegie-Mellon towards a degree in Chemical Engineering or some such.

Also, from what I understand, Kipp owns a home in Jackson Twp. as well as co-owning two homes in Las Vegas with his sister and some others. He also co-owns a computer software business with his sister as well as owning a Drive-In movie memorabilia business.

Kipp is never late for work, rarely if ever calls off sick, which is a tough thing to do considering the amount of sick people we deal with on a weekly basis. He is a good Medic and Firefighter and in his 8 years on the dept. has never been a disciplinary problem of any kind. As long as he makes it in for his shift every third day, why should it matter where he lives or how he gets to and from work? (We work 24 hours on then have 48 hours off for those who don't know)

GrowlingTiger87,

I would like to hear your reasonings why he should just be abitrarily fired and it is "ludicrous"

[fyrewood]

Ah, but on what basis?

There is a chance that what he is doing is permitted under the CBA that the city negotiated with the firefighters. And remember, that CBA was adopted as an ordinance by the city, so it has the force of law. It may be a rediculous situation, but the city put themselves into this predicament.

Again ObieWan, you are 100% correct.

[GrowlingTiger87]

GrowlingTiger87,

I would like to hear your reasonings why he should just be abitrarily fired and it is "ludicrous"

fyrewood, I'll admit that I didn't have the whole story, although I still think it's a unique situation. I have more of the story now, so I stand corrected.

[Obie Wan]

fyrewood, I'll admit that I didn't have the whole story, although I still think it's a unique situation. I have more of the story now, so I stand corrected.
It's not like you're wrong. It is ludicrous. It just so happens that it may also be legal.

Again, this goes back to the CBA that the city negotiated with the firefighters. I daresay it will be worded differently next time.

[The Butler]

.... but in my opinion the city doesn't have a leg to stand on and will only end up losing taxpayer's money if they continue to pursue the matter.


I wonder how far the city is going to be willing to take this. I don't have a dog in the fight so to say, but I think your and Obie Wan's assesment of the situation is pretty spot on. If the guy shows up, does the job he was hired to do, why sure it matter where he resides?

[Kamd50]

If this guy isn't breaking any laws and doing his job, who cares where he lives or what he does with his money? If he chooses to spend it flying back and forth, then so be it. I don't see how it is any of our business.

If this guy happens to be in a position where he is instrumental in saving the life of one of my loved ones, I sure as hell ain't gonna care where he lives or buys a home. I will just be thankful that he was there.

[fyrewood]

fyrewood, I'll admit that I didn't have the whole story, although I still think it's a unique situation. I have more of the story now, so I stand corrected.


GT,

Like Obie Wan said, I'm not necessarily saying you were wrong. I also think it's kinda odd that a person would want to work in Massillon, but reside way over in Las Vegas. While strange, he was completely within the contract and the laws when he changed his address, but the city is trying to change things after the fact, which in my opinion is wrong. I just kinda wanted to hear your opinions or reasonings about it all.

[DAWGH8R]

God bless anyone that can pull all that off !!


I envy that guy !! I just wonder: Why does he want to still be a fireman?? Does he drive the firetruck?? If so, is it legal since he has a Nevada license???

This is a way KEWL situation !!:afro:

[Fats]

I would think that HE can not fulfill his duties. IS he going to be able to get to a major fire that needs all firefighters on duty when he needs to hop on a plane from Las Vegas and get to Massillon before the building burns down or a loss of life. I think any judge will say that he is not able to perform his duties while he lives in Las Vegas.

[DAWGH8R]

I didn't know that the guys had to be available 24/7 !! Maybe Woody can confirm/deny this !!:afro:

[Fats]

I not sure if they have to be 24/7. But if a major fire came up they may need all hands on deck. I just think that no judge would say that living in another state is reasonable.

[longtimefirsttime]

I drove to the New Philadelphia-Uhrichsville area every day for several years. It seemed like a long trip. I couldn't imagine traveling from Las Vegas every week, especially if I had the money to do other things.

[fyrewood]

I not sure if they have to be 24/7. But if a major fire came up they may need all hands on deck. I just think that no judge would say that living in another state is reasonable.

Fats,

It's about the same as if someone is on vacation and isn't available for an emergency call in, that happens all the time...plus, emergency call ins don't happen that often in Massillon. Also, it doesn't matter if a judge thinks it's reasonable for him to live in another state or not, the only thing that matters is whether it was legal for Kipp to move out of state and live there at the time he did it....and it was, that's all that matters. Also like I said before, he does have a residence in this area, he isn't commuting every shift from Las Vegas.

[MassillonMom]

He used to live next to a friend of mine on Federal in one of those historic homes.

[calcm]

Here's hoping Kip applied to take the Captains test.

That would really put a burr under someone's saddle :grinning:

[obie7661]

I not sure if they have to be 24/7. But if a major fire came up they may need all hands on deck. I just think that no judge would say that living in another state is reasonable.

I agree.

[fyrewood]

I agree.

Just for further clarification: most fire depts. have mutual aid contracts or agreements with other local depts. If you have a major fire where you need lots of people right away, you don't have time to phone or page everyone that is off duty and wait for them to come in. You call the depts. you have mutual aid with such as Jackson, Perry, Canton etc. who have full time people on duty who can respond right then and now.

Oh, and by the way, we have had at least 2 or 3 emergency call ins in the past week and a half (vary rare to have that many).....Kipp made ALL of them....

[fyrewood]

Here's hoping Kip applied to take the Captains test.

That would really put a burr under someone's saddle :grinning:

From what I understand, Kipp has applied to take it. If they would fire him on Oct. 15th as they are threatening and the test is on Oct. 25th, a few scenarios could happen....

1) He gets fired before the test and loses his case.....no problem as far as the test is concerned.

2) They fire Kipp before the test, he wins his case and gets rehired. The Captains test could be nullified and eveyone could be made to take it over.

3) He gets fired, wins his case and gets rehired, they allow him to take the test and add his scores to the others.....No problems.

4) They fire him, promote one or two Captains, then he wins his case and gets rehired. They could possibly have to nullify the promotions and regive the test to allow Kipp to take it. The problem with this is that by Civil Service law, they can take the promotions away from those promoted, but they can't take away the pay they were making at the higher rank. What this could concievably do is cause the city to have 1 or 2 to possibly 4 people being paid for the Captain's rank but only one actually holding that rank....kinda wasteful in my opinion.

There are lots of other scenarios that could happen also but I figure those are enough for now.

As I stated before, in my opinion, while living in Vegas and working in Massillon may not be a best case scenario, what Kipp did was perfectly legal by state law and contract when he did it. The city and city council tried to change things after the fact. It is/was one person....It won't cause a "mass exodus" as some in high positions have predicted. There are many of us on the dept. higher in seniority than Kipp who have had NO RESIDENCY RESTRICTIONS at all for years, we could virtually live in Alaska if we so choose and it has never been a problem till now. Again, in my opinion,the city fighting against Kipp's case will lose and waste taxpayers money.....But hey, you never know what may happen in court, so go ahead and take a chance with the taxpayers money and fight it......

[calcm]

I hope Kipp passes the test and wins his case. :thumbsup:

[fyrewood]

I hope Kipp passes the test and wins his case. :thumbsup:

LOL Kipp is that you??? :rock:

[calcm]

LOL Kipp is that you??? :rock:
Nope ............... Just a long lost friend and an old friend of his Dad.:smile:

[tucker]

Hey fyrewood - What are the day-to-day responsibilities of a captain, or the schedule of working hours, as compared to his present position as a fireman? Would a captain have the same opportunity to be out of state as often?

[chumly]

What the heck kind of jack is this guy making as a firefighter that he can go drop $450K on a house? Perhaps fyrewood is someone we should be showing a WHOLE lot more respect for than we do!! LOL.

Anyway, there sure are a lot of questions that will need to be answered. I think this is going to get VERY interesting.


You know. It was probably one of those negative amoritizing, interest only, 60 year loans :laughing:

[fyrewood]

Hey fyrewood - What are the day-to-day responsibilities of a captain, or the schedule of working hours, as compared to his present position as a fireman? Would a captain have the same opportunity to be out of state as often?

Tucker,

Good question.....As far as schedule of working hours, a Captain works exactly the same schedule as the firefighters do. So if Kipp were to be promoted that would not effect anything at all. I won't go into all the little things a Captain is responsible for, it's kinda boring believe me, but that wouldn't be effected by anyone's residence or distance from work either.

[fyrewood]

One thing I may have forgotten to mention on this subject......

One of the city leaders arguments (actually it's their main argument) is that Kipp living so far away is a "safety issue". Yes Fats they have brought up the same argument that you did about call in fires and Kipp living so far away and being unable to respond. I countered that argument here by explaining Mutual Aid with other depts. and the fact that there are many times where others are not able to repond to an emergency call in for one reason or another. Such as:

People on sick time.
People off because of injuries.
People on vacation.
Just simply being out of town. You might be up in Cleveland or somewhere with family doing some shopping or watching a ballgame or something. etc....

Even silly reasons like having a couple of beers while grilling burgers for your family.....Can't come in with alcohol in your system....

Heck here's an example that effects me personally......I have a girlfriend who lives over in Wayne County North of Wooster.....I spend a great deal of my off duty time out there. Even though I have a Massillon address, because I am at her place so much, probably 90% of the time I am unavailable for emergency call ins. Oh I can get there in about 45 minutes or less, but by that time, any great emergency is pretty much gone.

So you see even if you actually Live or have and address in Massillon it doesn't mean you'll be available for off duty calls.

My question to city leaders claiming it's a "safety issue" is...IF you're SO concerned about safety, then why did you reduce our minimum manning per shift a few years back. (Dropped from a minimum of 12 per shift down to 10).

If you're so concerned about safety, why do we not have constant top notch training to keep our skills up. (We have minimal training and the training we do get now just started a few years ago when we got a new Fire Chief)

If you're so concerned about safety, why do we have to hunt scrape and find every Grant we can to update equipment and gear. Again, up until a few years ago when we got a new Chief. We were using so much old and outdated fire gear and stuff, that we were the laughing stock of Stark County fire depts.

If you're so concerned about safety, then why did you let the former Fire Chief run the dept. into the ground as far as gear, equipment, training and especially moral??? I'm pretty sure why, it's because he RARELY if ever, spent money in or on the dept. , never asked for budget increases to update gear, equipment and training and he was saving you a fortune....That's right, it's all about money, not safety.

Wouldn't surprise me if that's the real main reason why the current Chief is dropping back down to Assistant Chief. He was probably tired of being brow beat every time he asked for money to buy updated anything.

Safety? My foot, the only thing they've ever been concerned about was the all mighty dollar.

OK, I'm done folks, sorry about going off on a tangent. LOL

[longtimefirsttime]

According to this Inde article, he will be suspended without pay.
http://indeonline.com/index.php?ID=11140&r=0&Category=1
(If link doesn't match try Inde archive for 10/17)

[Tigermedic]

It sounds to me like the City of Massillon is likely to loose this battle. They changed the rules for where a firefighter can live and he took advantage of it. Now the city wants to change the rules after he moved???
Im not a massillon firefighter but it sounds to me like the firefighter in question has been in and out of town most of his career with a jackson township address? What is the difference now that he has a Vegas address?? Im guessing none.. Lets say he moves back to his Massillon Jackson address?? Will his free time away from the job in massillon change?? No,, will he still go to Vegas??? Yes..

If I was the Chief which im glad im not, I would have just asked him to change his address back to Jackson township to save some grief. I would have told him I dont care what you do or where you go on your off time as long as you report to work ontime. If he said no. I would have told council to leave the guy alone you cant win...

My answer tax free leave the guy alone?